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Thread: Interesting find...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Interesting find...

    While browsing Pew's Global Attitude site for an unrelated topic, I stumbled upon this:



    Very long explanation, so I spoiled it and put up a chart for you visual people:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Religion is much more important to Americans than to people living in other wealthy nations. Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives. This is roughly twice the percentage of self-avowed religious people in Canada (30%), and an even higher proportion when compared with Japan and Western Europe. Americans' views are closer to people in developing nations than to the publics of developed nations.

    The 44-nation survey of the Pew Global Attitudes Project shows stark global regional divides over the personal importance of religion.[1] In Africa, no fewer than eight-in-ten in any country see religion as very important personally. Majorities in every Latin American country also subscribe to that view, with the exception of Argentina. More than nine-in-ten respondents in the predominantly Muslim nations of Indonesia, Pakistan, Mali and Senegal rate religion as personally very important. In Turkey and Uzbekistan, however, people are more divided over religion's importance.

    Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. Attitudes are comparable in former Soviet bloc countries. In the Czech Republic, fully 71% say religion has little or no importance in their lives – more than any nation surveyed – while barely one-in-ten (11%) say it is very important. And in Poland, the birthplace of the Pope and where the Catholic Church played a pivotal role during the communist era, just 36% say religion is very important.

    The Global Attitudes study correlated views on religion with annual per capita income and found that wealthier nations tend to place less importance on religion – with the exception of the United States. This is seen most clearly in Asia, where publics in the two wealthiest nations surveyed – Japan and South Korea – are far less likely to cite religion as personally important than those in poorer nations of the region. The lone exception is Vietnam, however, where just 24% of the public view religion as very important. (Questions on the personal importance of religion were not permitted in China, and were deemed too sensitive to ask in Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon.)

    This poll is part of the Pew Global Attitudes Project. The project's first major report, "What the World Thinks in 2002," focusing on how people view their lives, their countries and the world, was released Dec. 4, 2002 and is available online at www.people-press.org.

    "The Pew Global Attitudes Project," is a series of worldwide public-opinion surveys that will measure the impact of globalization, modernization, rapid technological and cultural change and the Sept. 11 terrorist events on the values and attitudes of more than 38,000 people in 44 countries worldwide. It will be conducted and released over the course of two years.

    The Project is chaired by former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright. Andrew Kohut, director of The Pew Research Center For The People & The Press, is the project director. An international advisory board - consisting of regional experts, academics, activists, and business and government leaders and chaired by Sec. Albright - provides guidance in shaping the surveys. Team members include Bruce Stokes, a columnist at the National Journal; Mary McIntosh, vice-president of Princeton Survey Research Associates; and Elizabeth Mueller Gross and Nicole Speulda, of the Pew Research Center. The Global Attitudes Project is funded by The Pew Charitable Trusts, with a supplemental grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation.


    Here is a nice regression line:



    Remember, a maxim for statistics is "correlation does not imply causation, even between seemingly linear relationships." Also "beware of lurking variables."

    But still, it's interesting how the countries lined up...

  2. #2
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Nobody thinks this is at all interesting?

    Hmph... And I spent 5-10 minutes compiling this data, formatting it, an posting it so that we could have a discussion on something except the Danish cartoons...

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
    Nobody thinks this is at all interesting?

    Hmph... And I spent 5-10 minutes compiling this data, formatting it, an posting it so that we could have a discussion on something except the Danish cartoons...
    Good post, but I am afraid is isn't exactly news to most people. I remember a long discussion about secularisation and modernity some six months ago, and this sort of staticstic material came up repeatedly. I am tempted to conclude that some religions are more suited to (or geared towards) modernisation than others, but don't ask me to prove that beyond reasonable doubt.
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    That was my reaction also: interest, but not surprise (except for Turkey, Uzbek and Pakistan being grouped under "Conflict Area", and the rest grouped by continent). And I wondered about the non-representation of Israel, Palestine, etc... until I followed your lead to Pew, and saw they had separate treatments for them.

    So the bottom line is (except for US) prosperity = declining interest in religion?
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 02-20-2006 at 16:55.
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  5. #5
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Since the US is where the European religious fanatics went to practice freely, this doesn't come as that much of a surprise. Old habits die hard....
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    Senior member Senior Member Dutch_guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    That was my reaction also: interest, but not surprise (except for Turkey, Uzbek and Pakistan being grouped under "Conflict Area", and the rest grouped by continent). And I wondered about the non-representation of Israel, Palestine, etc... until I followed your lead to Pew, and saw they had separate treatments for them.

    So the bottom line is (except for US) prosperity = declining interest in religion?
    Pretty much sums it up for me, Kukrikhan.

    Why is Turkey considered a conflict area, surely other nations would have fit under that title better ?

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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan

    So the bottom line is (except for US) prosperity = declining interest in religion?
    There seems to be a strong correlation, yes. You could also say more education = declining interest in religion.
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    For poor people, religion applies much more than to wealthier people. Same is for communism. (they don`t fit together, do they?)
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    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    There seems to be a strong correlation, yes. You could also say more education = declining interest in religion.
    I used to think so too, but here is another interesting find (a bit of a paradox):

    http://post.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2001papers/HIER1913.pdf#search='education%20religion%20correlation'
    Last edited by Reenk Roink; 02-20-2006 at 19:14.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by drone
    the US is where the European religious fanatics went to practice freely
    Yep and good riddance.



    Edit: Good riddance to the fanatics, not to Drone, to be sure.
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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Those religious fanatics were very strong supporters of education, democracy, and more of an individualistic religion.

    The distribution of those w/ less than 40% of the population thinking religion is very important seems pretty uncorrelated to me. They nearly make a straight line. And if it were only those w/ 60% or less in the graph, the line of best fit would maybe even be going upward a bit.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    True, for example, countries with poverty and low education like Vietnam were also quite non-religious, but the biggest difference remains between Europe and America.

    Also, if anyone has the patience to read (or skim) the 54 page Harvard study on correlation, it's quite interesting (especially the first few pages).

  13. #13
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Yep and good riddance.
    And now we are stuck with their sexual repression and offended sensibilities...
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    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    you might have had a better initial response if your thread title actually was something helpful regarding what the post/link was about.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by solypsist
    you might have had a better initial response if your thread title actually was something helpful regarding what the post/link was about.
    True...I'm not very good with titles...

    Oh, and

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    I'm not surprised by the findings. I think people have done them on the US and shown education level by state versus religious attitudes as well. Apparently, the dumber you are, the more likely you are to go to church is the general message we're supposed to walk away with.

    Fair enough, I choose to be stupid...
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    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    I'm not surprised by the findings. I think people have done them on the US and shown education level by state versus relgious attitudes as well. Apparently, the dumber you are, the more likely you are to go to church is the general message we're supposed to walk away with.

    Fair enough, I choose to be stupid...
    Don, read this...

    http://post.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2001papers/HIER1913.pdf#search='education%20religion%20correl ation'

    In the United States, religious attendance rises sharply with education across induviduals...
    In the United States, church attendance rises with education.2 Fifty percent of college
    graduates born after 1945 attend church more than “several times per year.”3 Only thirty
    six percent of high school dropouts, born during the same period, attend church that
    often. Figure 1 shows the mean attendance level by level of education. In a univariate
    regression, which does not control for denomination, a one-standard deviation increase in
    schooling raises church attendance by .12 standard deviations (see Table 1). When we
    control for other factors, the relationship between education and religious attendance gets
    stronger. In many multivariate regressions, education is the most statistically important
    factor explaining church attendance.
    Last edited by Reenk Roink; 02-21-2006 at 19:35.

  18. #18
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Good Lord, RR, it's 54 pages long. Even the wording of the abstract is a bit, how shall I say, abstract...

    Religiosity rises with education across individuals (I know I've seen studies that contradict this, but okay, I'm game, nice to know my folks' university money wasn't thrown away) but religiosity falls with with education across demonination? Not certain I follow that... some denominations have increasing religious/education correlations, others have falling ones?

    One thing I've never understood about the unchurched... Among modern society, it's considered rude to evangalize... as though you're forcing your views on others. That seems fair to me, and I limit my evangalization by (trying) to lead a life of example and saving my views on religious matters until I'm asked. But why do atheistic secular humanists feel free to evangalize at will, 24-7? I consider it pretty rude of them too....
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 02-21-2006 at 19:42.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    You know the answer.

    They're simply hypocrites who tend to be too ignorant to look at their own actions.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Good Lord, RR, it's 54 pages long. Even the wording of the abstract is a bit, how shall I say, abstract...
    Yep, I'm going to be using it for my AP Stats project...guess who's going to get an "A" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Religiosity rises with education across individuals (I know I've seen studies that contradict this, but okay, I'm game, nice to know my folks' university money wasn't thrown away) but religiosity falls with with education across demonination? Not certain I follow that... some denominations have increasing religious/education correlations, others have falling ones?
    Quite sharply too. I wonder if this is unique to the United States...

    As for the paradox with denominations, I believe what the study indicates is that people with more education heve a more open mind towards religion, and are not as into sects. For example, an educated person is more likely just to call himself Christian, than Methodist...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    One thing I've never understood about the unchurched... Among modern society, it's considered rude to evangalize... as though you're forcing your views on others. That seems fair to me, and I limit my evangalization by (trying) to lead a life of example and saving my views on religious matters until I'm asked. But why do atheistic secular humanists feel free to evangalize at will, 24-7? I consider it pretty rude of them too....
    Not going to get into this atheism vs. religion debate...

    Atheists struck first...

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    With regard to the USA I'm of the opinion that it more to do with northern European attitudes, as in the Protestant work ethic, that enabled them to prosper. Plus they had the advantage of a 'clean sheet' so to speak.

    Still, fascinating stuff.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Religiosity rises with education across individuals (I know I've seen studies that contradict this, but okay, I'm game, nice to know my folks' university money wasn't thrown away) but religiosity falls with with education across demonination? Not certain I follow that... some denominations have increasing religious/education correlations, others have falling ones?
    I think you have it about right from what I could make out from the study. Essentially, I think it's saying that the slack-jawed yokel who struggled through the third grade four times before finally quitting school is more likely to be snake-handling and speaking in tongues every Sunday, while the pimply academic with a doctorate in 14th century basket-weaving is more likely to be attending a United Church with a lesbian minister who uses camembert and a nice merlot for the sacraments.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    I guess in plain English it says this. The smarter people are, the more likely they are to attend religious services. And the smarter attendants are, the lower their attendance (and attachment to doctrine) will be. So if you're a moron you're not likely to attend Church, but once you do, you go six times a day and pray the pants off the old Oolong Boolong.

    Maybe the key to the surprisingly high American attendance is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvard Institute of Economic Research
    Furthermore, social group membership almost universally rises with education. The positive relationship between education and group membership (and many other forms of socializing) is as strong as the Beckerian (1964) connection between education and wages. It appears within the U.S. in almost every form of group membership. There is a positive connection between schooling and social group membership in almost all 69 countries where we have micro-data on education and group membership.
    What it says, basically, is that you guys are social animals and that Church-going is part of your socialising.
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  24. #24
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting find...

    Well, that much (church being a social function) I totally agree with. My wife is something of an agnostic Deist (there's something out there, but how can you possibly hope to know what it is), but she attends church regularly, because she sees the value in the interactions and positive reinforcement of corps values. It's one of the few 'village level' activities left in the US.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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