My Saudi Students

[English assassin]

We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

Not wishing to be contentious here, but this is the same Saudi Arabia where women were until very recently prohibited from driving? Where a woman's testimony in court is given half the weight of a man's? I hope these sexy women felt OK about women not being allowed to stand or vote in Saudi's elections to municipal councils? Where, according to Amnesty International:

Domestic violence attracted national and international attention when in April Rania al-Baz, who had been beaten by her husband, made her ordeal public to raise awareness about violence suffered by women in the home in Saudi Arabia. A television presenter and mother of two, Rania al-Baz was attacked by her husband on 4 April at their home in Jeddah, apparently for having answered the telephone. She suffered 13 fractures to her face. Her husband then put her in his van and reportedly dumped her unconscious at a hospital in Jeddah, claiming that she was a victim of a traffic accident.

When Rania al-Baz’ disfigured face hit newspaper front pages it forced into the open the many severe forms of discrimination that facilitate and perpetuate violence against women in Saudi Arabia, and the issue of impunity. The case was the first of its kind in the country to proceed under the public eye in a criminal court and result in conviction and punishment. Rania al-Baz revealed that her husband had a history of violence against her but that she could not leave him for fear of losing custody of her children. When she had tried to leave him he prevented her from seeing her children for two months. Divorce in Saudi Arabia is primarily the man’s prerogative. Women’s rights in this regard are so limited that they are almost impossible to exercise. To gain a divorce, women, unlike men, must prove harm or fault by the spouse, be able to pay compensation, face the risk of losing custody of children, and be able to convince an all-male judiciary. The problems are compounded by severe restrictions on women’s movement, total dependency on male relatives and social stigma attached to divorce. Women activists, writers, journalists and lawyers called for legal and judicial changes to end such discrimination and combat the impunity enjoyed by perpetrators of violence against women.

You met some nice people. I'm glad. But I'm not sure what it tells us about Saudi Arabia.

Oh, and two Saudi women in the school, and how many Saudi men? Also two? or do more Saudi men than women get sent abroad for education...

[rotorgun]

I have also had an experience with some Saudi "students" when I was attending a military school at Ft Eustis, VA back in 1999-2000. A group of these Saudi Military personnel were my nieghbors for a time. They were indeed very polite and cordial, and I was even invited to dinner once. They (all males) treated me very well for an infidel, even allowing me to express my religous views, and teaching me about theirs. One of the men was considered an Iman, and he was the most devout, and courteous. Everything was going well until, after dinner, a rather brusk and seemly character showed up. He seemed to be in charge, as they all deferred to him. He seemed a little high strung to me, and soon he showed his true colors when he invited me outside for a little chat to ask me if I could get him any drugs.

I was dumbfounded at first, and then gathered my wits. This man was asking me to compromise myself and risk my over twenty year career in the military so that he could get high. I immediately recognized my position, and to this day feel that he was trying to get me compromise myself so that I could be used in a little espionage game. Oh yes, this is a common approach by spies, and I was thankful that I had some training to recognize it as such. Instantly, my old habits from the Cold War era kicked in, and I politely refused his request and made my excuses to my guests. The next day I reported this activity to my OIC, and he must have reported it to the CID, for it was soon after that this individual was sent home to Saudi Arabia.

Oh the Saudis are very polite indeed. Especially when they are trying to ellicit information or recriut an agent in their holy cause.

If they would only turn over Osama Bin Laden and crew, renounce all forms of Islamic extremism, and send troops to fight along side my comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan, then I could find it in my heart to trust them again. I find it amazing that you have even agreed to teach them in this country. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be allowed here at all.

PS: The events I described really did happen, just as sure as the World Trade Centers were destroyed. Please feel free to read this post to your "students" any time. Perhaps it will put it into perspective for them.

Allah Akhbar!

PS edit: I should have looked a little closer at your Avatar and signature quote. It would have explained so much.

[Devastatin Dave]

PS edit: I should have looked a little closer at your Avatar and signature quote. It would have explained so much.

Man, you should read the rest of his posts/threads.

[Tachikaze]

Some of you mentioned Iranians. I can't comment on Iranians. I would say that their nation's policies are more closed than most, if not all, of the other nations in the region.

Some of you also referred to the lack of woman's suffrage and other restrictions. These are government policies, not necessarily the attitudes of the people. When some of you discuss the US, you distinguish government policy from the people. You should do the same for the Saudis.

How many Saudi women and men in my school? Two women and nine men. A better ratio than the number of women to men in the US Senate.

Keep in mind that the situation was very different in 1995. There were no Saudi women studying here at all then. The behavior of men towards the female US teachers was very disciminatory. In ten years, things have changed a lot. People's attitudes about Saudis and other Middle Easterners are often based on simplistic, outdated stereotypes, based mostly on hearsay and firmly-fixed opinions.

It's the practice of governments to present an image of an enemy that is alien and unfamiliar to their citizens. They emphasize the differences, and ignore the similarities. They do not want to us identify or sympathize with them.

The US government began a war with Iraq, and supposedly with terrorists, and reinforces this alien image of Iraqis and other peoples associated with them, such as Saudis. There is sometimes truth to the pictures they draw, but they are exaggerations that support their agenda.

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

These young men and women are not as alien as certain people would like you to believe.

[Don Corleone]

So, a small group of people that may or may not be infiltrating our country by means of your university are actually polite to you, perhaps in an effort to disarm your suspicions, and you sieze on this as evidence that Saudis are the most polite people on the planet and in fact, Americans are just bigots? You kill me Tachi. You're as constant as the Northern Star. In any dispute, in any issue, it's always the USA at fault. I'll give credit where credit is due... we need consistency in these days, even consistently wrong.

[Xiahou]

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

But that only makes sense. The best schools are in the US- people from all over the world want to study here. Saudis are rich on oil, but they're smart enough to know it won't last forever. So, they're taking small steps to move beyond that- steps like paying for their elites to come to the US and learn our culture and business practices.

It's just the smart thing to do in their own interests. Im not going to laud them for it anymore than Id criticize them for doing so.

[Redleg]

Some of you also referred to the lack of woman's suffrage and other restrictions. These are government policies, not necessarily the attitudes of the people. When some of you discuss the US, you distinguish government policy from the people. You should do the same for the Saudis.

Hmm - it seems you are wanting a standard applied that you yourself often don't apply when discussing political issues.

How many Saudi women and men in my school? Two women and nine men. A better ratio than the number of women to men in the US Senate.

And that some how makes the ratio better?

Keep in mind that the situation was very different in 1995. There were no Saudi women studying here at all then. The behavior of men towards the female US teachers was very disciminatory. In ten years, things have changed a lot. People's attitudes about Saudis and other Middle Easterners are often based on simplistic, outdated stereotypes, based mostly on hearsay and firmly-fixed opinions.

Care to guess what my first hand experience with dealing with the Saudi male in Saudi Arabia was? Or how about the numerous times I conducted training with Saudi officers in several service schools? Or how about several other first hand accounts from people who have returned from doing military missions in Saudi Arabia?

What you are seeing Tachikaze is a bubble. Find out the social-economic status of your students, and you might discover the validity of your point.

It's the practice of governments to present an image of an enemy that is alien and unfamiliar to their citizens. They emphasize the differences, and ignore the similarities. They do not want to us identify or sympathize with them.

Saudi Arabia is a long time ally of the United States. (an ally who uses us completely for their own benefit - same as we do them)

The US government began a war with Iraq, and supposedly with terrorists, and reinforces this alien image of Iraqis and other peoples associated with them, such as Saudis. There is sometimes truth to the pictures they draw, but they are exaggerations that support their agenda.

So far one of the few statements you have stated that I agree with.

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

This is not a new program by the way. Back in 1983-1987 I went to college at a school that had several Saudi's and other Middle-East students. In fact most of them were very likable as individuals, I enjoyed visiting with several of them on occassion.

These young men and women are not as alien as certain people would like you to believe.

Correct, I have absolutely no problem with Saudi's or anyother individual, but don't attempt to fool yourself nor me with your comprision. You are most likely dealing with the upper echelon of the social-economic class of Saudi society. A bubble does not mean its false nor does it mean its true.

[Tachikaze]

What you are seeing Tachikaze is a bubble. Find out the social-economic status of your students, and you might discover the validity of your point.

I'll bet the number of Saudis that fit in the "bubble" I'm seeing is much larger than the bubble the Al Qaeda members occupy.

People in the US are much more willing to generalize the tiny terrorist bubble than the bubble of my students. They seem to be predisposed to believe the negative images of Saudis, and Arabs in general, than the positive ones. The government reinforces and feeds this.

One of my students comes from a farm. I don't know his economic level, but he is certainly no urban managerial type.

[Redleg]

I'll bet the number of Saudis that fit in the "bubble" I'm seeing is much larger than the bubble the Al Qaeda members occupy.

I would hope so.

People in the US are much more willing to generalize the tiny terrorist bubble than the bubble of my students. They seem to be predisposed to believe the negative images of Saudis, and Arabs in general, than the positive ones. The government reinforces and feeds this.

Speak for yourself - I don't generalize Saudi's nor Arabs. I weigh the actions of the individual more then the content of the group. Your making the same generalization of Americans that you believe is happening toward another group.

Hello Pot meet Kettle.

One of my students comes from a farm. I don't know his economic level, but he is certainly no urban managerial type.

You might want to ask what type of farm, and where he falls in. You might be surprised.

[Vladimir]

I would like to reinforce Rotorgun's statement. A disproportionately large number of foreign students, mostly from the middle east, mostly from the Kingdom of Saud, are sent here to collect information. It's been going on for a while and takes advantage of the general naïveté attitude college students and professors have on the world. These are the same type of people that wondered: "Why do they hate us?" after 9/11.

To counter that I believe that everyone should be judged as an individual and treated accordingly. However one of the greatest threats to our security, is/are foreign students.

[drone]

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

Don't they also sponsor Wahhabi fundamentalist schools elsewhere?

"LeftHand, have you seen RightHand around, I've got some questions..."

[Tachikaze]

I have also had an experience with some Saudi "students" when I was attending a military school at Ft Eustis, VA back in 1999-2000. A group of these Saudi Military personnel were my nieghbors for a time. They were indeed very polite and cordial, and I was even invited to dinner once. They (all males) treated me very well for an infidel, even allowing me to express my religous views, and teaching me about theirs. One of the men was considered an Iman, and he was the most devout, and courteous. Everything was going well until, after dinner, a rather brusk and seemly character showed up. He seemed to be in charge, as they all deferred to him. He seemed a little high strung to me, and soon he showed his true colors when he invited me outside for a little chat to ask me if I could get him any drugs.

I was dumbfounded at first, and then gathered my wits. This man was asking me to compromise myself and risk my over twenty year career in the military so that he could get high. I immediately recognized my position, and to this day feel that he was trying to get me compromise myself so that I could be used in a little espionage game. Oh yes, this is a common approach by spies, and I was thankful that I had some training to recognize it as such. Instantly, my old habits from the Cold War era kicked in, and I politely refused his request and made my excuses to my guests. The next day I reported this activity to my OIC, and he must have reported it to the CID, for it was soon after that this individual was sent home to Saudi Arabia.

Oh the Saudis are very polite indeed. Especially when they are trying to ellicit information or recriut an agent in their holy cause.

If they would only turn over Osama Bin Laden and crew, renounce all forms of Islamic extremism, and send troops to fight along side my comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan, then I could find it in my heart to trust them again. I find it amazing that you have even agreed to teach them in this country. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be allowed here at all.

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

[Redleg]

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

LOL mine goes back 20 years..... comparing apples to oranges again Tachikaze

It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

How about experiences with the culture. Where there is a compound where the people gather to watch the sentence of the convicted criminal being carried out. Wether it be a simple punishment of a hand being cutoff or the head.


Or how about dragging shop keepers out of the store and beating them if the store was not closed at the first call to prayer.

Oh wait how about the males in Saudi Arabia not helping female soldiers when they went to purchase an item...

I got more....

By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

Have you renounced your American citizenship yet?

It seems you have not read some of Rotorgun's posts are you wouldn't of wrote such a statement.

[Devastatin Dave]

Tachi, do you think that these Arabs attitudes about women have just simply changed? Or, quite possibly, the EVIL EMPIRE of the United States and Western culture has assisted this change in policy and attitude. Regardless, you would never give the West that sort of consideration. Like I said earlier, every Arab/Persian (Iranian) persons have been really nice and polite. But for you to just preach to us about how other's personal experience are wrong concerning these people only show how hypocritical you are about trumpeting your own experience as some sort of Gospel Truth on how Arabs and Muslims in general are really (in your own world of course).
So while you're riding your moral high horse like some sort of Fundamentalist Christian that you loath so much, try to be more tolerant of other's beliefs and experiences. You don't want to come off as some sort of self righteous fascist do you!?!?!?

[Vladimir]

Let me clearly state that this is the result of the actions of one individual. While not a Saudi, this story has relevance to our topic:

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_th...?doc_id=372835

On February 28, Al-Arian -- formerly a tenured associate professor of computer engineering at the University of South Florida -- entered a guilty plea to conspiracy to procuring "funds, goods, or services to or for the benefit of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a Specially Designated Terrorist [Organization], in violation of 18 U.S.C. §371."

I LOVE this statement by the judge:

Dr. Al-Arian, as usual, you speak very eloquently. I find it interesting that here in public in front of everyone you praised this country, the same country that in private you referred to as "the great Satan." ...You are a master manipulator.

You looked your neighbors in the eyes and said you had nothing to do with the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. This trial exposed that as a lie.... The evidence was clear in this case that you were a leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad...

When Iran, the major funding source of the PIJ, became upset because the PIJ could not account for how it was spending its money, it was to your board of directors that it went to demand changes. Iran wanted its representative to have a say in how its money was spent. To stop that, you leaped into action. You offered to rewrite the bylaws of the organization...

But when it came to blowing up women and children on buses, did you leap into action then? ... No. You lifted not one finger, made not one phone call. To the contrary, you laughed when you heard about the bombings, what you euphemistically call "operations"...

And yet, still in the face of your own words, you continue to lie to your friends and supporters, claiming to abhor violence and to seek only aid for widows and orphans. Your only connection to widows and orphans is that you create them, even among the Palestinians; and you create them, not by sending your children to blow themselves out of existence. No. You exhort others to send their children... You are indeed a master manipulator.

I'm sure he was polite and respectful as well.

[rotorgun]

It seems you have not read some of Rotorgun's posts are you wouldn't of wrote such a statement.

Thank you Redleg, I know that you and I are on the opposite sides of many arguments, but I appreciate your pointing this out. Mr. Tachikaze would be suprised to know that I am actually a liberal myself, a conservative one yes, but a liberal no doubt.

I would like to reinforce Rotorgun's statement. A disproportionately large number of foreign students, mostly from the middle east, mostly from the Kingdom of Saud, are sent here to collect information. It's been going on for a while and takes advantage of the general naïveté attitude college students and professors have on the world. These are the same type of people that wondered: "Why do they hate us?" after 9/11.

To counter that I believe that everyone should be judged as an individual and treated accordingly. However one of the greatest threats to our security, is/are foreign students.

Thank you Vladimir. I hate to lecture to you my good freind Tachikaze, but what he is referring to is called a fifth column in military parlance. You know, those little spy dudes you send snooping around when you play RTW ? Except these are possibly leading to the deaths of some of your fellow countrymen. Oh yes, be assured that Al Queida has infiltrated the ranks of the collegiate world.

[Leet Eriksson]

Wow you guys are absolutely wonderful, you know that?

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

Also rotorgun, just one question, what sort of narcotics did the guy ask for, and was he really interested in anything else besides narcotics?

I know alot of people who take light stuff, marijuana, qatt, hash in the army, including US navy personnel since i have trained with them in my five year career, its rather harmless.

I don't know, ask Al Jeezera. Perhaps if they would not represent us as nothing more than infidel "Crusaders" who deserve nothing but death merely because we aren't Muslim, than perhaps I could agree to meet them half way. Turn about is fair play.

This baffles me the most, where in al jazeera do they term anyone infidel crusaders?

[Ser Clegane]

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

Hah ... I bet those Iranians (and other muslims ... actually they are all the same anyway) who I studied chemistry with are now (yes, RIGHT NOW!) using their acquired knowledge to build WMDs ... actually I even have the suspicion that, when we went out for a drink in the evening, they were a bit pre-occupied trying to figure out where to plant a bomb in the pub.

Sneaky guys ... if I ever meet them again

(end of sarcasm)

[rotorgun]

[QUOTE=faisal]Wow you guys are absolutely wonderful, you know that? [/QOUTE]
Thank you, we do what we can you know.

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

Well, that's a bit of a stretch, but in case you didn't know it, the most smallest bits of information can be strung together from many scources to make up a larger intelligence picture; the accurate picture that the Japenese had of the Pacific fleet on the verge of the attack at Pearl Harbor is one instance. I am not generalizing by saying that some of the students could very well be plants from the enemies of the United States. I apologize for seeming to stereotype. Can you account for the whereabouts and activities of every student? I daresay that you cannot.

Also rotorgun, just one question, what sort of narcotics did the guy ask for, and was he really interested in anything else besides narcotics?

He wanted me to get him some cocaine. Oh yes, and to find him some prostitutes as well.

I know alot of people who take light stuff, marijuana, qatt, hash in the army, including US navy personnel since i have trained with them in my five year career, its rather harmless.

Perhaps, but as I told him, it is against my religous beliefs and moral character to abide such a thing. To his credit, he did not push the issue, but I could tell that I was persona non grata with him from that moment on. I will not judge those who you have known to use drugs, and I would be naive to think that what you say is not true. I just do not approve of there use, do you?

This baffles me the most, where in al jazeera do they term anyone infidel crusaders?

This is what they have reported Osama Bin Laden and Al Mosaui to have called us. Do you remember the graphic video of Al Mosaui beheading innocent people and Osam Bin Laden threatening us with more attacks? We are clearly referred to as "Crusaders" in several of the videos. Didn't Al Jezeera play those parts of the videos?

In any case, thank you for your stimulating questions. May God Bless you in your Naval career.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have traveled quite a bit of Morocco, and a bit of Tunisia. I have daily contact with Muslims. I have a Moroccan colleague too.

I found Morocco alien, strange. I did not grasp a lot of it's social codes, even with there being little of a language barrier. And I mean alien in a neutral way, not necessarily demeaning. It is a country I could never live in, I could never accustom myself to it.

The western Muslims range from complete jerks to some really cool people. Though, to be perfectly honest, most of the latter are the ones that are best integrated. There is no shortage of modest, polite, smart Muslims. Of liberated women. Of Muslims who got themselves a life and contribute to society in a meaningful way.

[rotorgun]

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

Fair enough, although I don't exactly hand around with any particular group of people. I was merely trying to be a good representative of my fellow Americans by showing a little interest in their well being and respect for their culture. That I felt misled after the request by one of their associates to provide him with narcotics I'm sure that you can understand. The fact that he was so soon sent home afterwards was enough to justiy my suspicsions. The fact that they were soldiers has some bearing on my experience, but how would I have been treated by their government if I had acted in such a way in Saudi Arabia. I would probably still be in prison or worse.

It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

I don't know, ask Al Jeezera. Perhaps if they would not represent us as nothing more than infidel "Crusaders" who deserve nothing but death merely because we aren't Muslim, than perhaps I could agree to meet them half way. Turn about is fair play.

By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

I am very opposed to the invasion of Iraq on principal. I will not go so far as to renounce it because I believe that some good can come from it despite the Hypocricy of the Bush administration's claims of humanitarian intervention there. I am well aware of the imperialistic motives behind Bush's little war. I, unlike you, will probably, due to my asscociation with the military, be made to actually participate in this affair. I don't blame anyone but myself for that, but I am honor bound to see that I do all I can to support it despite my feelings.

The little group which was flying the planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were all mostly Saudi individuals. It seems that they were also "students" here as well for a time. From that day on, I have always felt that any Saudi "students" are suspect until their government comes clean with us about this "Osama" character. Somebody in that country knows exactly where he is I am sure. In the meantime I should be very cautious in my dealings with any of them.

Am I bitter? Just a little. Just be glad for your Saudi freinds that I was not the President on September 12th, 2001.