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Thread: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Exclamation Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Interesting read from the Weekly Standard, making very cogent arguments that our military is way too small for its current mission load.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    An Army of Lots More Than One
    by Frederick Kagan
    07/07/2003, Volume 008, Issue 42

    THE ARMED FORCES of the United States are too small to support the missions required of them in the post-9/11 world. In many of the situations we now face, using troops on the ground is nonnegotiable, and America has too few of them. If that assertion seems counterintuitive given the impressive performance of the U.S. military in Afghanistan and Iraq, two numbers may help drive it home: Of the 495,000 troops in the U.S. Army, 370,000 are already deployed around the world.

    The destruction of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq has always been rightly seen as only the first step in a reorientation of America's security policy toward the Middle East. If the United States proves to have eliminated the Baathist regime in Iraq only to replace it with chaos and violence, we clearly will have failed to enhance our security. The threats, to be sure, will be different. The imminence of Saddam's development of weapons of mass destruction posed a clear and present danger to the United States and its citizens at home and abroad. Chaos in Iraq will pose a less obvious threat, but the danger to Americans will be no less substantial.

    We have already seen how chaos and civil war in Afghanistan in the 1990s provided the breeding ground for terrorists and a haven for the bases where they trained. If U.S. forces are reduced or withdrawn too soon, similar conditions in Iraq will nurture the al Qaeda operatives of the future. The U.S.-led attack could end up bringing about the very threat that prompted it in the first place--the proliferation of Iraqi weapons to terrorist organizations--if we do not finish what we have begun by establishing a stable and peaceful regime in Iraq.

    This will not be accomplished, however, without the prolonged deployment of significant numbers of American ground forces. Smart weapons cannot keep peace. They cannot get schools and hospitals running, or keep electricity and water flowing, or keep hostile neighbors from attacking one another, or provide a police presence to deter looters and criminals, or hunt down and capture individual terrorists, interrogate them, and learn from them the nature of the organizations to which they belong, or find traces of a WMD program hidden carefully in a country the size of California. Only soldiers and marines can accomplish these tasks, and, given the size and complexity of the country, only in fairly large numbers. Given the unrest and political chaos that currently engulf Iraq, it is hard to imagine that the United States will be able to withdraw any significant portion of its 146,000 troops from that country in less than a year without compromising our vital objectives.

    The problem is that we cannot maintain such a large force in Iraq for a year without seriously damaging the Army and harming our ability to pursue other critical objectives. Given the normal requirement to have two units at home for every one deployed, the 11-division-equivalent U.S. Army could support a three-and-two-thirds division commitment to Iraq indefinitely--at the cost of having no forces available for operations anywhere else in the world. But the current deployment is the equivalent of more than five divisions (the 101st Airborne, 4th Infantry, and 1st Armored divisions, two brigades of the 3rd Infantry Division, the 2nd and 3rd Armored Cavalry regiments, the 173rd Airborne Brigade, and elements of the 1st Infantry and 10th Mountain divisions).

    In addition, more than 200,000 reservists and members of the National Guard have been called up to support the efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and on the home front. Some of these troops have been deployed for more than a year, many of them earning a fraction of their civilian pay. There is reason to fear that the hardship on them and their families may damage recruiting for the Guard.

    Within months the U.S. leadership will face a difficult choice: reduce the commitment to Iraq regardless of whether the country is ready for such a reduction, or extend the deployment of many of these units indefinitely. The first choice is unacceptable because it may well compromise our ability to achieve our objectives in Iraq. The second will do great harm to the Army.

    It is not merely that soldiers in Iraq are under strain from having to be peacekeepers and warfighters simultaneously and from coming under periodic attack at the hands of the populations they are trying to police, or that morale in those units will deteriorate as their deployments extend with no clear end in sight. Units engaged in peacekeeping (if it can be called that) in Iraq are not training for war. The more forces we maintain in Iraq, the fewer we have available to face other potential enemies. Right now there is hardly a single division in the U.S. Army that could take the field as a unit without our hurriedly withdrawing important elements from Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, or Afghanistan and sending them to war without the opportunity to retrain them. That is an unacceptable situation.

    Nor can we look to our allies to help us. All of the European states have cut their armed forces so dramatically over the past decade that they are not capable of deploying large forces to Iraq. The British are already maintaining half of their deployable forces there. Virtually none of the European states has the command, control, and communications facilities required for the job, let alone the strategic transportation capabilities needed to get forces to Iraq and sustain them there. Furthermore, states like France and Germany that vigorously opposed the war have demonstrated an equal unwillingness to support the peace we have imposed on Iraq.

    It is time to stop pretending that the United States can prosecute a war on terror, conduct peacekeeping operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, and Bosnia, and maintain the security of the homeland without a substantial increase in the size of the armed forces. General Shinseki, the recently retired Army chief of staff, warns us to "beware the 12-division strategy for a 10-division army"--and even he understates the problem. In truth, the armed forces need an increase in size of at least 25 percent.

    The current military structure was designed in the 1990s when all the talk was of a "strategic pause" and a prolonged period of peace. What pause there was has vanished, and it is not peace that now looks likely to be prolonged. Expanding the armed forces to match the missions they must perform is an urgent task.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Yes, it's way too small if it is intended to be an imperial army.

    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    Yes, it's way too small if it is intended to be an imperial army.

    Let's not start that shall we.

    Yes, though, our military does need an increase in size.



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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Well if they want to keep on making strategic blunders they need a bigger army. Or they could spend some more on intelligence gathering instead.


    CBR

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Yea, lets not start the whole political satire, we have already heard enough of it. I think we do need to expand it, although i wouldn't mind cutting back on the troops we have overseas.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Australia is in a similar position with half of its army forces soon to be deployed overseas (we have a tiny army btw). Mainly in Iraq, Afghanistan, East Timor and the Solomon's along with a small amount of rotations to units with other nations forces and UN peacekeeping duties.

    But less and less people are joining up... the primary cause hasn't been touted as fear or poor morale... it is the crap pay rates and lack of a career ladder once you leave.
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    When used as a power projection force - which seems to be the current doctrine of the overall command - then the force is too small. The current optempo of many units does not give them the ability to recover from one operation before they are gearing up for the next one.

    The current doctrine as I understood it was to maintain the Military to do at least two low-mid intensity conflicts at once and be able to support with military force one of our allies in necessary.

    Last time I looked the United States military is committed to two peacekeeping missions, and two low-mid intensity conflicts. Along with the requirements needed to maintain the force's warfighting abilities - troops are not getting enough down time.

    It is interesting to note studies from WW2 about battlefield rotations and troop moral. If one as to take a comparision of battlefied rotations of WW2 armies and compare it to the optempo of the United States Military today (and I dare say the United Kingdom's) one would probably discover some interesting statistics and trends that are very similiar.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    When used as a power projection force - which seems to be the current doctrine of the overall command - then the force is too small. The current optempo of many units does not give them the ability to recover from one operation before they are gearing up for the next one.

    The current doctrine as I understood it was to maintain the Military to do at least two low-mid intensity conflicts at once and be able to support with military force one of our allies in necessary....

    Yep. "Two-and-a-half-wars" has been the Holy Grael of US military planners since the early 80's (in those days, it was thought: hold the USSR in the Fulda Gap, repulse North Korea, and help an allie - probably UK, Oz, or Canada, but maybe someone else - somewhere.). 2 distinct theaters requiring air, armour and logistics, plus a 'half-war' requiring Spec Ops and intel support - with limted logistics.

    To fullfill that 2.5 goal, we're understaffed, I think. We're using our reserves as though they were regular troops, when they are orignally organized to quickly train-up militias and volunteers into a useable force . And over-using them. And, as Redleg reports, tightening rotational schedules to the maximum stretch point.
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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Looked at with a purely objective point of view, I would tend to agree with Redleg. Unless sufficient native forces can be produced to offset operational requirements, the Army is too small by far. When one factors in the numbers of contractors that are doing what logistics units should be doing, ie. maintenance, transport, messing facilities, engineering, etcetera, than it is undeniable. Compare the situation to the Cold War period in former West Germany. The forces permanently stationed there were the equivelent of a reinforced corps with many supporting units from Army headquartes. There were also other units from the other Nato countries, such as the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Finland, and the Budeswher of Germany. All in all, there were probably about 3-500,000 American soldiers there, depending on the year. This was from 1945 until the fall of the Soviet Union in the 1980s. This is the kind of commitment that wins a war of idealologies. This is what we are facing in the Middle East, a war of ideas. I don't even want to think about what will happen if the situation with Iran turns hot.
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  10. #10
    BHCWarman88
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Retruict More People.. Have Better Pay,etc....

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    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Yes, the US Army is too small. The rest of the US military is still large enough to engage on another front.
    The US Army has always been to small ever since the end of WWII. Withing 5 years of WWII the US Army had been cut so much that it had it's hands full with the Korean war which 5 years before would have just been another theatre of operations. Vietnam has again a use of too few troops. The little wars of the 1980's though is what the US opts for nowadays.

    I think the problem is that the US recongnizes it's position in the world as the only Superpower (at present) and has faith in it's high tech army. We put our money in machines so we don't need manpower, the idea being that all these combat mulitipliers will reduce the amount of troops needed for the job. The US has always maintained a large Navy and since WWII has always had a large Air Force but the Army is always the one that's neglected. Up to the 1980s the US Army was never more high tech than the Soviet Union, the Tanks were about equal and so were the small arms, trucks, and other vehicles.
    Only in the 1980s when the Army was switched over to a smaller yet all volunteer Army and given the modern equipment it needed to have an edge over other armies. When the Cold War ended the American people didn't see a need for a large army anymore and began reducing troop numbers. After the Gulf War against the "battle hardened fourth largest army in the world" our complete faith in machines was proven and more troop reductions were done with the Bush and Clinton administrations. The idea being that with our machines being so badass all we need to do is bomb them to hell and send the army in to wipe out what's left. We thought we could just maintain our Air Force and Navy to prevent war against us and just have an Army for small regional conflicts not protacted conflicts.
    What was not seen though was that with the end of the Cold War and the rise of Islamic extremism that the US wouldn't be able to withdraw into it's tradiontal isolationist shell. Instead the US was drawn into Somalia but at the first bit of heavy casualties (low considering the number of troops sent) the US had no taste for that type of war and withdrew leaving Somalia to itself. After the last weapons inspecters were forced out of Iraq in 1998 instead of the US opting for UN action to force Saddam to comply we were content to just do a a demonstration of force with a few cruise missiles and airstrikes in Operation Desert Fox.
    So in effect (sorry for being too wordy) the US has an Army big enough for small regional conflicts but if the US wants to be able to still be feared by "rogue nations" and be able to carry out that fear the Army needs to be enlarged. It's sad that the Army that could fight the Germans and Japanese at the same time (granted we had a few years to buildup) can't occupy nations the size of Iraq and Afghanistan and not be able to at least threaten a nation such as Iran.
    Now when the Bush administration leave the White House I believe that regardless of what party wins the US will still try to project itself across the world. Look at the calmor over Sudan once there was a "cause" to go in and this was from groups that opposed the Iraq invasion as well. If the US wants to retain it's status as a military superpower it needs to increase the size of the Army and the US public needs to get used to casualties. If you look at even the last 40 years of wars the idea that a nation could invade and occupy a foriegn nation of a different religon and internal factions that hate each other and do it for 3 years with only 2500 deaths would be thought of as dreamy. In the Korean war the deaths were about 2500 a month, Vietnam was about 6000 a year. The 80 casualties of the gulf war spoiled the US public. If the US still wants to project force overseas it needs to get used to bloodshed (as bad as that sounts), either that or just resign to itself and let the UN handle things completely. You can't do both.

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    Yes, it's way too small if it is intended to be an imperial army.

    Well, it needs to be an imperial army. The doctrine of Power Projection requires that. Well, actually, no; but the doctrine of Power Projection coupled with the need to actually occupy the "secured" lands require an imperial army, if you mean by a large one.

    I'd advocate the expansion of the military, though of course selfishly I will never join; but to be honest, under current spendings I'd rather not harm society more. What the hell is with the Pentagon spending so much money on whatever they're doing? Could some military experts or those who were/are in the military explain to me what are they doing with all those treasure troves being budgeted to them every year? Is it a blackhole or are we just trying to keep a tech lead? Does it require such money to actually work?
    Last edited by AntiochusIII; 06-02-2006 at 09:27.

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Banquo's reference to an imperial army was not (should not have been) a troll.

    If you think that empires fall/dominant powers collapse because of "imperial overstretch", and if you think that notwithstanding the large amounts you already spend on your military it is too small for the missions asked of it (and that seems to be the case), then if I were American I would ask myself not is the military too small, but how can I reconfigure my conduct so that the USA's continued status as the world's dominant power is assured whilst reducing the demands on my military to a level managable within the present (or preferably a reduced) budget.

    After all, in purely economic terms, every extra grunt you recruit is a grunt consuming on the public payroll, who might otherwise be in private industry generating wealth in your economy, no insult intended to the ex-servicemen on the board.

    Its equally likely that you have the wrong military, but then, no sooner will you scrap 90% of your MBTs on the grounds you don't need them than 3 million north Korean troops will come swarming over the DMZ no doubt. Did anyone ever correctly econd guess the next war?
    Last edited by English assassin; 06-02-2006 at 10:08.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    If that means that you have roughly 100.000 troops stationed in the whole of the USA, ya definatily to small, that is what we have for tiny little holland.

    well that is a bit exagarated but how could you possibly deal with an invasion?

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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla
    So in effect (sorry for being too wordy) the US has an Army big enough for small regional conflicts but if the US wants to be able to still be feared by "rogue nations" and be able to carry out that fear the Army needs to be enlarged. It's sad that the Army that could fight the Germans and Japanese at the same time (granted we had a few years to buildup) can't occupy nations the size of Iraq and Afghanistan and not be able to at least threaten a nation such as Iran.
    But the difference is in WW2 the US had conscription to produce those large armies. And they were fully backed by the armies of Russia, Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Free French, Free Poles etc etc...Whereas now they are all volunteer, and whilst they have allies helping them out, its just a brigade here, a battalion there.

    As others have pointed out, the US have always planned on the 2.5 conflicts doctrine - and they are fighting their 2 conflicts. Part of the problem is I thin they always reckoned on at least 1 of those conflicts being in Europe and/or Korea, and neither of them are, but they are still required to maintain standing forces there to fulfill their treaty obligations (NATO) and as a sensible precaution (Korea).
    Last edited by Mount Suribachi; 06-02-2006 at 10:42.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    well that is a bit exagarated but how could you possibly deal with an invasion?
    Hmm. Canada and Mexico, they can probably handle. Anyone else has to go by sea. Past 10 Nimitz class aircraft carriers, and if I counted correctly 49 Los Angeles class nuclear attack submarines, plus all the other toys.

    So unless they get attacked from Mars they are probably going to be OK.
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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Yes, more money to the troops, less money to wasteful products without application.


    You need the middle class to want to join more, it seems, with all those college programs and such, that's it's mostly "poor" people joining up.
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    Is our children learning? Member Joker85's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Hmm. Canada and Mexico, they can probably handle. Anyone else has to go by sea. Past 10 Nimitz class aircraft carriers, and if I counted correctly 49 Los Angeles class nuclear attack submarines, plus all the other toys.

    So unless they get attacked from Mars they are probably going to be OK.
    Also last time I checked NATO was still binding. So if the only country in the world (china) that would want to, and would perhaps have the ability to mount an attempt (you are right they would never get through the navy) they would then still have to deal with being at war with all of western europe +australia/NZ.

    Of course assuming those countries backed their NATO obligations. If they backstabbed us and didn't, there are a few countries we could still count on no matter what(UK being at the top of the list).

    So 100,000 soldiers with the capability to draft millions (16,000,000 Americans were in the military during ww2) is more than enough to hold off the tattered remains of any force that managed to make it past the US Navy until more units were drafted and reinforcements from allies arrived.

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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla
    It's sad that the Army that could fight the Germans and Japanese at the same time (granted we had a few years to buildup) can't occupy nations the size of Iraq and Afghanistan and not be able to at least threaten a nation such as Iran.
    They fought the Germans and Japanese as organised forces.. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan as Vietnam, the people doesn't want to be conquered (You may call it 'freed', but nah, it really isn't), and so they will resist.

    One more note about Afghanistan, go to any village and you will find at least a quarter of the men in it 'taken by soldiers', and by that I mean to that evil prison in Cuba, got my point? USA is fueling hate for it in the souls of the countries she's currently standing in, resulting in an even harder time for their army.
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    Is our children learning? Member Joker85's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

    the people doesn't want to be conquered (You may call it 'freed', but nah, it really isn't
    Yes. That's why 70% of them voted. Gotcha slick.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    If the USA intends to continue with it's oil crusades against all the oil-rich countries, then yes the U.S. Military is too small and if they ever get attacked by another superpower they are gonna be in big trouble.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Hey look what the lord just dragged in! Haven't seen you for a while here

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    If you want to have more troops available.I think the obvious place where to release those would be Europe.There is no more Soviet Union and Russia doesnt pose a serious threat of Invasion to Europe.So how about redeploying the V Corps and Southern European Task Force?
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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    If that means that you have roughly 100.000 troops stationed in the whole of the USA, ya definatily to small, that is what we have for tiny little holland.

    well that is a bit exagarated but how could you possibly deal with an invasion?
    That's when all the unregistered pistols and assualt weapons the populace owns come into play.

    As the least glamourous branch of the military, the US Army usually gets the short end of the budget stick. If they continue to be treated like they are now, it really will be an Army of One.
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by rotorgun
    There were also other units from the other Nato countries, such as the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Finland, and the Budeswher of Germany. :
    Just want to point out that Finland has never been a NATO-country
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    If you want to have more troops available.I think the obvious place where to release those would be Europe.There is no more Soviet Union and Russia doesnt pose a serious threat of Invasion to Europe.So how about redeploying the V Corps and Southern European Task Force?

    Last round of the BRAC commission was supposed to review just that.


    http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2...0503_5009.html

    http://www.brac.gov/docs/final/ExecutiveSummary.pdf

    But it seems the politics and costs of removing the United States Military from Europe once again entered into the equation about what best to do with the United States Military. This is probably the best written piece available on the web for the general public.

    http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=5415&sequence=1


    However here is where some of our forces are leaving


    http://usinfo.state.gov/eur/Archive/...17-794340.html

    http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=5415&sequence=3

    For anyone interested that is where I would suggest one start to research the answer to such a question as posed by Kagemusha is by the way is a very valid proposal that has been addressed.


    I found this site while researching the possible withdraw of US Forces from Europe but have not read it completely yet, but found the initial browse through interesting.

    http://www.assembly-weu.org/en/docum...2003/1819.html
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  27. #27
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
    Just want to point out that Finland has never been a NATO-country
    .
    I beg your pardon AggonyDuck. I stand (well actually sit) corrected. I had always thought that your country was a memeber. I guess it was because the former Soviet Union had invaded in the past, and I figured that Finland would want to be a member for protection.

    As far as pulling out the V corps and Southern Task force goes, I don't think it ties in with the strategic aims of the PNAC plan. It may be phsycological, but I don't think that they fully trust the Germans and the Russians. After WWII and the Cold War which followed, the U.S. government has always kept a jaundiced eye on these two nations.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Quote Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
    One more note about Afghanistan, go to any village and you will find at least a quarter of the men in it 'taken by soldiers', and by that I mean to that evil prison in Cuba, got my point?
    Last I heard, Gitmo held about 600 prisoners. I find it hard to believe that the rural population of Afghanistan is 2,400 men. And many of those 600-odd (granted, more have been through) are non-Afghans.
    "I request permanent reassignment to the Gallic frontier. Nay, I demand reassignment. Perhaps it is improper to say so, but I refuse to fight against the Greeks or Macedonians any more. Give my command to another, for I cannot, I will not, lead an army into battle against a civilized nation so long as the Gauls survive. I am not the young man I once was, but I swear before Jupiter Optimus Maximus that I shall see a world without Gauls before I take my final breath."

    Senator Augustus Verginius

  29. #29
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    Thanks for the information Redleg.Il give it a little bit of reading. Rotorgun.Finland wasnt part of of NATO,neither Warsow pact. There is still talk in here about joininig NATO,but majority of people are against that.Im not sure what are the reasons behind that we dont want be militarily allied.We just dont.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  30. #30
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Belgium
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    Default Re: Is the U.S. Military Too Small?

    There are never enough weapons. There are never enough soldiers. There are never enough victims.

    one thing is certain, there are enough fools.
    Last edited by Moros; 06-02-2006 at 19:28.

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