9/11: Did America do it to itself?

[Don Corleone]

I'm always shocked, and frankly frightened, about people's level of animosity on this front (Edit: clarification... animosity in that 'we deserved it' seems to be a fairly common statement here in the US among some quarters when the topic comes up). I went out to lunch today and had a local talk radio program on while I was waiting in line at the drive-through. And the topic of the hour was some poll that just got released (sorry, no link, didn't hear who released the poll). Apparently 36% of Americans believe that we orchestrated 9/11 and killed three thousand of our own citizens.

Now, this shows a cynicism far beyond the surface level. Most of the 36% agreed that such an operation would have taken a year or more to have planned and executed. So, according to them, this was a policy initiative started by the Clinton administration, finished by the Bush administration.

Last year, I stumbled across a poll that said over 50% of Germans believe we either faked 9/11 or did it to ourselves. I heard anecdotal evidence frequently in Ireland, Germany and the Netherlands when I was there in 2004. Of course, the number approaches 100% when you ask the 'arab street'.

So, orgahs, you're a fairly intelligent group. You tell me, did America bomb the WTC and stage the plane hijackings to make it look like Al Queda did it? Did Mossad, with our tacit approval? Did we know about it and choose to do nothing? Please, limit your responses to conclusions you can base on facts (either way). It dawned on me, after I dug my fingers out of the dashboard, that on raw facts, I have a hard time discounting some of the conspiracy theories. "I hate George Bush, and he's got that smirk so he must have done it" or "You just hate Jews and Americans" would be rather unwelcome comments. Tell me what you know.

(As an aside, I imagine this thread and poll will strike many, Baroca especially, as odd, as I came uncorked on a similar one he posted about a year and a half ago. I guess time does heal all wounds and maybe I'm ready to start listening to viewpoints I don't agree with. Also, I am curious what the 'core truth' is among folks that believe it must have been the USA all along... distrust of Bush, distrust of USA, logistics, physics...? In any case, once again Baroca, I was wrong that day, and I apologize again.)

[Vladimir]

Yes; and that whole Holocaust thing, never happened. Truth is that 9/11 was planned and implemented by the CIA, so was WW II. Now some of you skeptics are going to say: "Wait, the CIA was founded in 1947, that's impossible!". Well, you're wrong, that's when they went public. Truth is that they were founded by the Masons when they emigrated from Europe and George Washington was their first director. The Masons themselves were founded by an alien who's spaceship landed in ancient Egypt. That alien was from the space empire that seeded the Earth with life and he (I like to call him Bob) was actually sent to observe our development. Oh and I've met Bob, he's actually quite nice. His race is immortal don't you know.

[Xiahou]

Now, this shows a cynicism far beyond the surface level. Most of the 36% agreed that such an operation would have taken a year or more to have planned and executed. So, according to them, this was a policy initiative started by the Clinton administration, finished by the Bush administration.

If true, that show's it's an opinion that's rooted in ignorance as much as anything else... I imagine if you connected the dots from those 2 responses for them, they'd quickly modify their view.

[Don Corleone]

If true, that show's it's an opinion that's rooted in ignorance as much as anything else... I imagine if you connected the dots from those 2 responses for them, they'd quickly modify their view.

Not ignorance, a deeper cyncisim then most can understand.... they understand the logical conclusion of their theory, and hold that this was a deal in the works with Clinton, and on into Bush's administration. I'm sure some felt Bush pulled it off in the 7 months or so that he was in office by 9/11, and some didn't do their math... but in fact, most of the 36% believe that in all likelihood, both administrations cooperated to perform this operation.

[InsaneApache]

No, I don't think so. However it did facilitate the war in Iraq and Afghanistan where certain interest groups in the US had a stake in the gas pipeline. Makes you think though, does'n't it?

[DukeofSerbia]

If we ever found out the true about 9/11, then will be too late and nobody will care for that. And if somebody think that know true, what he/she can do? Nothing. Who cares in what I, you or somebody else think about that. We just can guess and think, but we don't have any proof for that.

Conspiracy teories are not solution. I don't said there is no true in them.

So, I decided to vote for 7.

[Pannonian]

The US did not know of the attacks beyond a general threat intimated by Clinton, but the attacks fitted perfectly into neocon plans to expand American influence through military power. While the neocons had the incentive to plan such an event, they had no need to - others did it for them, and they seized on the opportunity.

The closest there is to a conspiracy is the US harassment of the Afghan government during the early-mid 2001, which may have been due to disagreements with the Taliban, or to provoke a response. If the latter, then it's doubtful Bush expected such a response, and in any case it seems the Taliban themselves were unaware of the 9/11 operation until it had happened. I'm inclined to discount the conspiracy theory, and chalk it up to the Bush administration's usual inept diplomacy.

Where does this fit in your options?

[Don Corleone]

Your view is that it was Al-Queda and neither the American government nor the Israeli government had prior credible targeted evidence. That sounds like option 5.

Off topic, but what bear-baiting did Bush do with the Taleban? They were the ones that spent all year destroying priceless Buddhist statues, shooting women in soccer stadiums, expelling ambassadors and the like.

[drone]

I'm pretty convinced that AQ did the deed. I would not put it beyond the realm of possibility that some elements in the US and/or Isreali intelligence community knew and did nothing, but I find this unlikely as well. I don't think any US intelligence service would have had the means to orchestrate the attack AND completely cover up their involvement. Insert favorite malice/incompetence qoute here.

If "They" did orchestrate the attacks to invade the Middle East and start a police state here in the US, well, "They" are obviously very powerful, very shadowy, very smart, and not to be trifled with. I, for one, welcome our benevolent overlords...

[Big_John]

option 5.

[Pannonian]

Your view is that it was Al-Queda and neither the American government nor the Israeli government had prior credible targeted evidence. That sounds like option 5.

Off topic, but what bear-baiting did Bush do with the Taleban? They were the ones that spent all year destroying priceless Buddhist statues, shooting women in soccer stadiums, expelling ambassadors and the like.

I can't remember the exact details, but I remember reading newspaper reports at the time and thinking that no good would come of it. It may have been a vigorous version of the demands made of China and Russia to respect human rights and such, but with the usual trickery of constantly shifting the level of demands (cf. Iraq). I do remember thinking it was of a kind with the east Asian tour that outraged the Koreans.

[caravel]

Not long after it occured there were loads of theories floating around. So many in fact I can only remember snippets of them, and can't be bothered to look them up. One was that the fourth plane was shot down, not borught down by heroic passengers. And that the one that hit the pentagon was in fact not a plane but a missile. Then there's the issue of the pilots licenses or passports, or whatever they were not being burnt to a frazzle but being in perfect enough condition to identify the suspects. Then there's the one about some of the companies in the towers knowing it was going to happen and moving out early. And the theory that the towers were blown up by demolition experts...

I voted for the "I don't honestly know anymore" option, because, while I discount 99.9% of the conspiracy theories, I don't honestly know anymore.

[Lemur]

People who don't believe that al Qaeda was the perpetrator need to spend some time reading up on Occam's Razor.

[LeftEyeNine]

Oh well I should confess that I love "mysteries". I've come across so many websites claiming such stuff. Oh yeah they are most likely to be fake but I was quite amazed at a flash movie that was all about the Pentagon strike part of 9/11. The narrator was asking so many intriguing questions accompanied by photos that one can't keep himself from getting his head filled with question marks. However it is also obvious that if you have no real knowledge on an incident, one can convey the facts to you so well-planned that you can't dispute the rationality of the questions asked by the narrator, since you actually don't know the details that could counter the claims.

For friends who say "who cares if so" should remember that such reality would turn any and everything upside down. Actually even you would care about it.

[Watchman]

If you ask me it was Osama and his merry men. I don't see why not. Phenomenally craptasic failures of intelligence aren't exactly unprecedented (nevermind now in a setup as fractitious as the US intel agencies), and bunches of worrisomely dedicated folks with a Cunning Plan(tm) managing to pull of something really dramatic and starting veritable avalnches of events aren't anything new either.

The assorted jolly and nigh invariably thoroughly loony conspiracy theories just go to show exactly how highly Israel and the US are actually regarded, the latter even by its own citizens.

And if Bush et co now really wanted to manufacture a casus belli they could've done it with something rather smaller and less contrived anyway. The funny thing about conspiracies is that the more elaborate, complicated and dramatic they get, the more people need to be involved and the more certain it becomes someone starts having misgivings, defects, babbles to someone inappropriate when drunk, or otherwise screws the whole thing up. Even pretty simple and straightforward plots involving only small cabals of devoted folks have always demonstrated an alarming tendency to sink or swim by pure luck, accident, coincidence and sheer human stupidity; something as major as WTC would require circumstances and causal chains not found outside the more ludicrous and contrived James Bond stories, especially if it was to be kept secret afterwards.

[rory_20_uk]

To try to link the event to one cause is very blinkered.

The CIA before 1947 was the OSS. So perhaps they started WW2...

The guilty were cremated in the towers. Only the know for sure what made them do it. Everything else is guesswork.

Possibly some the intelligence networks aided them.
Possibly America helping israel upset Muslims enough that some funded extremists.


Those that think this was done by America IMO are bieng led by the movies. What is the point in doing it? There are other ways to cause terror that are far more subtle and less expensive, and relatively risk free. The evidence for killing JFK is far more plentiful - threatening the CIA is never a wise move.

So in short I don't know who to tag the blame on bar those that died.

[Randarkmaan]

I do not think the US engineered the attack or knew much about it, but I do believe that in some ways certain people in the US benefitted from it...

[Xiahou]

Those that think this was done by America IMO are bieng led by the movies. What is the point in doing it? There are other ways to cause terror that are far more subtle and less expensive, and relatively risk free. The evidence for killing JFK is far more plentiful - threatening the CIA is never a wise move.

Indeed, if this was some great government conspiracy, there would've been many better ways to start a war with Afghanistan than to destroy the financial center of the country.. That's just one more level under which these kook conspiracy-theorists make no sense at all.

[Shaun]

I do not think the US engineered the attack or knew much about it, but I do believe that in some ways certain people in the US benefitted from it...

Yes, these people being the oil tycoons. And George Bush, he is a madman who seems to want the anhhilation of Islam.

[Watchman]

I'm not too convinced either Afghanistan or Iraq are as of yet netting too much profit to any oil tycoon. The arms industry and its various branches ought to be making quite a killing, though; all that crazy amount of money Iraq alone costs the USA every day ends up in someone's pockets after all.

[Crazed Rabbit]

AQ, all the way. The US didn't know, but may have helped thorugh ineptness.

Besides, am I to believe the same gov't that runs the DMVs pulled this off with no leakers, no hitches, and no info 5 years later?

All this poll proves is that 1/3 of Americans are idiots.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ronin]

none of the options stated above describe the situation totally.


- Did Al Qaeda operatives under orders from Osama Bin Laden commit the 9/11 attacks.....yes....with 99.99% certainty.

- Did the USA through it´s atitude and foreign policy over the last 4 decades directly contributed to generate an enviorenment of hate,k extremism and general mistrust towards america (specially in the middle east) that directly led to what happened at 9/11?...you can bet you ass!

- general rule and fact of life.....you can be the strongest kid in school and you can go around bullying and stepping on toes for years and years....sooner or latter somebody is gonna hit back.......but everybody always acts surprised when it happens.

[scotchedpommes]

[Ronin raises good points.]

I would not venture to say that the US orchestrated those attacks. As for why
so many Americans could believe it possible, well, I think that is far more easily
explained. They have seen their administration carry out the absurd, and do the
unthinkable when it comes to a number of things. Indeed, Americans stood to
benefit from the attacks, and have some close connections to Bin Ladens in
various places, so perhaps it's all too easy to make just one more stretch into
absurdity and believe it.

I believe it could be possible that the intelligence services, particularly Israeli,
may have known something was about to occur and not done anything to
prevent it, I don't see that that is nearly so unreasonable.

As for the American administration itself - well, if the President himself had
known it were to take place, would he have risked immortalising himself reading
My Pet Goat? I think not.

[Justiciar]

2 & 5. I don't think the US knew about it per se.. but I've heard a number of things that suggests, could things have been pieced together, the whole event might have been avoided. But it happened when America had it's "pants down", so that couldn't have been expected.

[Watchman]

Well, striking in a place and time and by means the enemy doesn't expect you to is one of the chief tenets of all guerilla warfare anyway...
Chances are nobody's going to be able to pull something similar anytime soon since the novelty value wore off immediately and people now know to watch out for the trick, but as far as one-use sucker-punches go it was pretty succesful.

[Crazed Rabbit]

- Did the USA through it´s atitude and foreign policy over the last 4 decades directly contributed to generate an enviorenment of hate,k extremism and general mistrust towards america (specially in the middle east) that directly led to what happened at 9/11?...you can bet you ass!

Oh please. I'm so sick of that line of crap. 'We made them hate us'. Pah.

They have hated us since before the Iranian Revolution. The leaders need someplace to focus attention away from their crappy leadership, so they hark on about the evil of America, and some nuts start making religious justification for it.

Crazed Rabbit

[Watchman]

Well, you have been meddling in their affairs since around the World Wars if not earlier. So did assorted European states, mind you, the main difference being that they quit...

A good part of the crappy leadership there hold their posts largely because they made convenient allies for the US (and/or the Soviets) at one point or another, or alternatively deposed some such ally who'd managed to alienate his subjects (*coughshahcough*).

Do I really have to remind you where the Iranian Revolution came from...?

[Don Corleone]

Time out for me to play thread referee.

Ronin, Watchman... if the two of you care to start your own thread debating whether or not the USA deserved the 9/11 attacks, and perhaps a few more, by all means, nobody is stopping you. I'll even visit it and offer my opinions there. But I'm pretty sure that I was clear that this was a 'whodunnit' thread only. You'd think boys of your fine upstanding educational background could read simple instructions. (Granted, English isn't the native language for either of you, but as you are posting inflammatory statements in English, I'm assuming you'd understand a direct request not too).

CR, no difference. This isn't the defend the USA, wave the flag thread. The whole reason I started this thread, and I thought I was pretty clear, was to put my finger in the wind and see how accurate that 36% figure might actually be. I understand (believe me) just how.... compelling their comments might actually be. But this thread, specifically, is about evidence in support and in rebuttal of the official explanation and evidence for and against the conspiracy theories.

Guys, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really, truly want to know how 36% of my population, 50-something% of Germany, 75% of UAE and other places of educated, thoughtful people can actually believe that the US government, which cannot manage to accomplish anything without massive internal leaks, pulled this one off. The same government that couldn't keep the lid on Colin Powell's unhappiness or Bush's DUI or a whole host of other things managed to engage hundreds, if not thousands of Americans from many walks of life in a massive ploy to savagely, cruelly, execute close to 3000 of their fellow citizens.

It really, truely, boggles my mind.

[Major Robert Dump]

If true, that show's it's an opinion that's rooted in ignorance as much as anything else... I imagine if you connected the dots from those 2 responses for them, they'd quickly modify their view.

Yes, only people who loved Bill Clinton have idiotic conspiracy theories, it's never, ever right wingers. never

[Watchman]

Time out for me to play thread referee.

Ronin, Watchman... if the two of you care to start your own thread debating whether or not the USA deserved the 9/11 attacks, and perhaps a few more, by all means, nobody is stopping you. I'll even visit it and offer my opinions there. But I'm pretty sure that I was clear that this was a 'whodunnit' thread only. You'd think boys of your fine upstanding educational background could read simple instructions. (Granted, English isn't the native language for either of you, but as you are posting inflammatory statements in English, I'm assuming you'd understand a direct request not too).

CR, no difference. This isn't the defend the USA, wave the flag thread. The whole reason I started this thread, and I thought I was pretty clear, was to put my finger in the wind and see how accurate that 36% figure might actually be. I understand (believe me) just how.... compelling their comments might actually be. But this thread, specifically, is about evidence in support and in rebuttal of the official explanation and evidence for and against the conspiracy theories.

Guys, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really, truly want to know how 36% of my population, 50-something% of Germany, 75% of UAE and other places of educated, thoughtful people can actually believe that the US government, which cannot manage to accomplish anything without massive internal leaks, pulled this one off. The same government that couldn't keep the lid on Colin Powell's unhappiness or Bush's DUI or a whole host of other things managed to engage hundreds, if not thousands of Americans from many walks of life in a massive ploy to savagely, cruelly, execute close to 3000 of their fellow citizens.

It really, truely, boggles my mind.

Whoever said anything about "deserving" ? Certainly not me. Just pointing out that you reap what you sow. Cause and effect. "Deserving" or lack thereof would imply connotations of divine punishement-type thinking I avoid on general principles.

Anyway, as for what puzzles you it's really pretty elementary, dear Watson - people just plain don't like the US of A (or Israel for that matter, although for certain reasons Europeans tend to be somewhat careful around that issue). Even its own inhabitants notoriously don't quite always like it.