Note on whinging

[NeoSpartan]

Hmm, sounds like the second "fanboard" that managed to drive the devs out with too much criticism.

Fellas there is nothing wrong with Critisim, and there is nothing wrong with poing out the mistakes someone makes. THE PROBLEM IS IN THE WAY A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THE CRITISISING

You gotta understand something, its not What you say but How you say it
If you start yelling, getting offencive, using vulgar language, being disrespectful, showing disgust, etc. NO MATTER HOW RIGHT YOU MIGHT BE. Nobody is going to listen or take u seriusly. WHY? Because using this language and tone of voice makes the person you are trying to help/persuade into getting ANGRY. As a result they wont pay attention to what you say.

A lot people, like Puzz3D, have vary valid reasons in their arguments and CA should pay attention to what they say. But the TONE and LANGUAGE they use is NOT going to make any human being read and say "You know what? He is right". All it does is get the other person Angry/Offended and you will get labled "Just another Basher".

Remember, humans are Emotional Creatures. You gotta know how to talk to people.

CA doesn't post as much because they most what they got were Offecive Replyes.

[Tahanaman]

Dialog between CA and its players here is like oil and water trying to mix. Myddraal. Clan Takiyama is one of the orginal clans from the Shogun days. I joined since MTW and since then we have seen a steady decline in game play from CA. Many old vets have thus gone the way of the dodo bird since RTW release online because of game play. Sadly to add insult to injury CA would flat out deny gameplay issues at fault that the online community would point out. Reluctantly, some issues in question were addressed but with spin from CA. Ohwell, Yuuki's and Ordas points are valid....a decline has occured in game play......

[NeoSpartan]

Dialog between CA and its players here is like oil and water trying to mix. Myddraal. Clan Takiyama is one of the orginal clans from the Shogun days. I joined since MTW and since then we have seen a steady decline in game play from CA. Many old vets have thus gone the way of the dodo bird since RTW release online because of game play. Sadly to add insult to injury CA would flat out deny gameplay issues at fault that the online community would point out. Reluctantly, some issues in question were addressed but with spin from CA. Ohwell, Yuuki's and Ordas points are valid....a decline has occured in game play......

So true and so sad.

All I hope is that they make it better this time. And if they don't, then I hope simple Economics will help them understand. And if that fails, then CA won't be around for long.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

NeoSpartan is right.

[Hepcat]

It is an awful shame, I am still only new here but I have also notice some of the anti-CA sentiments. We should try and do something about it to get CA members back. There will be no better source for answers about the games.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

If CA makes the game like rome or even better I think that the game will be from start the best strategy game ever.So all who have something against rome or medieval should shut up.We don't want to hear what you say.If you want to say something against any of total war war games make your own site.

[screwtype]

if they come and read post after post about how CA "probably won't fix" issue X, or "screw up every time" on issue Y, what does that provide to them?

Um, how about feedback, on how people are actually feeling about CA's performance?

[R'as al Ghul]

[..] and if CA get it into their heads that you represent the average veteran player, and please God may they never think that, they may just give us all the middle finger and produce the game without our interaction at all.

Please point out the latest interaction to me.
I seriously don't remember any reaction whatsoever to Yuuki's well thought out criticism on R:TW.
His points are shared by many, he knows that and acts accordingly. I admit that sometimes he does sound a bit angry or even bitchy but you probably don't know what has been going on behind the curtains between those two parties.
His points are all valid and not being addressed at all. CfAdherbal makes equal points (perhaps a bit more friendly) and he also doesn't get any response. Same with Duke John and others.
In my opinion CA is not posting enough to clear controversial matters and serious concerns. PM's are being ignored (my experience) and when they post they insult us (see post by Shogun in MTW Gold petition thread) or inform us that they are not on the team but that the game is looking awesome.
We could all be a happy community if there was more and better communication. Mistakes are being made on both sides and communication on a bulletin board is difficult. My advise to CA would be to order one of their team to thoroughly check the threads for the main concerns and answer them. We even could give them a list (as in the past). Of course that only makes sense if they care. My impression is that they have moved away from their fan base. If this is because of one person (Puzz3d) I wouldn't know what to say........

[econ21]

Please point out the latest interaction to me.

AFAIK, the last interaction was an informative post:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...4&postcount=28

But they are not going to argue with critics and I can't blame them. It's a fools' game (don't wrestle a chimney sweep) and most creative workers generally avoid it. If you want to find an exception that proves the rule, you might consider the example of Derek Smart and his Battlecruiser 3000AD game, shudder.

[caravel]

Personally, I think if CA listened to Puzz, we'd get a better game.

I'm thinking along the same lines. Puzz3D is not a whinger (nor a whiner for that matter). Any negative criticism he has for CA or TW games is based on the facts (and the sad truth), not some warped personal RTW hating agenda. There are members of both the .com and the .org that have this sort of vendetta attitude, but there are few of them.

Basically a few people, including myself, were dissillusioned after the release of RTW, and with regard to M2TW, I think they need to see the 'goods' before they can change this mindset. I for one am pessimistic about M2TW, and this is based on the spin I've seen so far.

RTW marked a change in direction for TW games, it appears that M2TW continues in this direction. Some people don't like the way RTW and M2TW turned out, I suppose they have to live with it. CA will take the direction that they want to, that which generates the most profit. Veteran players from a bygone age are not the whole consumerbase, only a small part of it.

[CBR]

Im a pessimist too. I have a long list of issues with RTW engine and unfortunately it seems most of them will still be there in M2TW.

Im here here because of two good years of MTW MP and I reserve my right to stay here as long as I want.

Also I dont think CA has been pushed away from Org. They are still posting here and Im quite sure we will see more of them when the game has come out. It was the same thing with RTW IIRC.

We also have to remember that the old garde apparently isnt involved much in M2TW and the new ones have more forums to check out compared to old days.


CBR

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

I think rome total war was better in many ways than shogun and mtw .MTW's graphics were shit so rome's graphics are better.But there is a price to pay for good graphics.Rome's price was the AI.Now with m2tw the AI will be improved.
The EXPERIENCE is very important.

[Riadach]

reminds me of an irish proverb

más maith leat moladh, faigh bás, más maith leat cáineadh pós, nó cruthaigh cluiche ríomhaireachta atá bunaithe ar thosca staire ach bí beagán mí-chruinn ó thaobh firící is cathanna srl de ar mhaithe le so-imearthacht an chluiche sin, agus bí cinnte naimhdeas náisúnaíoch a ath-adhaint ag an am céanna, ar mhaithe leis an gcraic tá fhios a'at.

if you like praise die, if you like criticism marry, or create a computer game based on historical circumstances but be a little bit inaccurate about facts and battles etc for the sake of playability of that game, and be sure to reinflame nationalistic enmnity at the same time, just for the craic you know.

Ah the boundless wisdom and foresight of the Gael :-)

[L'Impresario]

There was certainly much more criticism around when the RTW demo was approaching and after its release. Before that negative comments were less gameplay-oriented.
Nowdays opinions and facts about how the engine works and what can be expected have been enhanced by 2 years of experience and intensive, periodic dialogues about the patches. Certainly the points put forward now are much more substantiated than early RTW days.

And if you think Yuuki is being constantly pedantic, bitter etc. nowdays, you should have seen his cynicism after the demo came out heh
From my point of view though it turned out that he was right on most issues mentioned back then and since the earliest mods we 've seen some recurring themes regarding what needs to be "corrected".
At least if the game turns out to be a RTW rehash, some people who didn't like RTW won't be disillusioned, since expectations seem to be lower than with RTW. I also believe it 'll also lead to healthier approaches once the game is out.

Now, if some CA developper were to answer to all this, the precedent is set (things were uglier during those days, so it may be a bit misleading pointing to that thread but it's true that the Guild's arches have heard the story before).

EDIT: In a link in the link there's also nice proof that CA people have a human side or something akin to this heh

[sunsmountain]

That's already been done. At this point, the RTW AI doesn't matter. After M2TW is released, there will be a window of opportunity where CA looks at the forums to make a list of M2TW issues to be worked on for the patch.

No, that window of oppurtunity is NOW, during development time, since MTW2 is an evolutionary upgrade. Ie, the basis of the AI will not change, and tweaking small numbers can have big effects.

I honestly believe that the current Rome TW AI can be a near-perfect AI, if enough polishing is done. Knowing they add the new features first (princesses, pope, traders, diplomacy options, assassin movies etc.), they will continue programing the AI second. They are starting with that now! Why wait with your (consistent, reproducable) feedback for the patch, when you can get it right the first time??

The reason Puzz3D will never believe the Rome TW AI's potential, is not because he doesn't base himself on facts (he does), but because he views CA as incapable of changing their mind, which they are not. Plus I don't think most people take the time to understand why CA have made the decisions the way they did.

[AussieGiant]

NeoSpartan raises a very valid point and got me thinking.

Gentlemen, for me,

the bottom line at this point in time is this “product” is now maturing, and quite rapidly in my opinion.

This release is going to have consequences as to where CA ends up going in the mid term future.

Like all maturing industries or products, it becomes much harder to maintain the sales, profit margins and success at this point of the cycle.

For me focusing on Graphics (while very important) rather than game play at this stage of the product life cycle, is like Ford releasing a Mustang with a new spoiler kit and electric windows. With some marketing excellence, the “Brand” knowledge and influence that CA enjoys in this market segment, MTWII will be more than likely be successful if that is all they have done.

But, the writing is on the wall since the last model was released (RTW).

If companies at this stage of product management allocate too many resources to the spoilers and electric windows and not enough to the real performance areas of the product, the consumer will make you pay.

Right now, what CA needs to do is not change the shape of the Mustang which looks great already (graphics), but deal with the engine and suspension (game play).

The game looks great, that is something most people will agree on, but if you don’t revise and improve the performance characteristics of a car through 2 or 3 models then you are going to decline, because that is where the real sustainability of a “mature product” lies.

Now maybe CA’s believes their niche gives them the ability to ignore this for a little while longer, and maybe they are correct. But this is a delicate time in the overall scheme of things and generally the dudes and dudetts that run companies in their early stages of development do not do well when those same companies move to the following stages. Some adapt and realise, and some don’t. Those who don’t realise that the dynamics are different generally fall by the wayside.

I think Screwtype is a valid and important voice, even though the tone may not be always pleasant.

Equally if you can’t get past the tone of voice to understand and comprehend what the message behind it is, then you’re in some trouble. For me when someone stays on a board as long as many do here then it shows that they care. And when people care, then their likely to get upset and emotions will make them sound unhappy. The bottom line is whether the point is valid or not. And when it is, and there seems to be no definitive response from the manufacturer, then I would not expect a different result form most people.

So, we’ll all see very soon how things have gone in the dark rooms of CA.

In the end we can cut of the XXXX beer supplies in Queensland if things have not gone too well

[SpencerH]

Something that hasnt been mentioned is that SEGA now owns CA. I think it has had, and will have, a big positive effect on the final product.

I believe SEGA purchased CA to enter the strategy market not the RTS market. Given that assumption it makes sense to make a more "in depth" product.

[AussieGiant]

Certainly SEGA bought CA at a traditional time of a company's development.

They will hopefully be providing the cash and "environment" that CA needs in this next stage of work.

An important step CA has made is to essentially have two teams. One in the UK and one in Australia. While one is "active" the other is already on the next project.

The best thing about SEGA buying CA is that SEGA would have done a Business Analysis on them and come to the conclusion that the future is bright.

What that means it that the next 3 to 4 completely new games will be excellent...or they will lose a lot of money.

[Myrddraal]

SEGA didn't buy CA did they?

I thought they were the new publishers... like activision were before. No?

[TB666]

SEGA didn't buy CA did they?

I thought they were the new publishers... like activision were before. No?

Well according to wiki, SEGA acquired them for 30 million dollars.
What ever that means.

[Puzz3D]

No, that window of oppurtunity is NOW, during development time, since MTW2 is an evolutionary upgrade. Ie, the basis of the AI will not change, and tweaking small numbers can have big effects.

Have you seen any dev come here and ask for a list of things to be fixed the way they do for a patch? They've never done that in 6 years when a new product is being developed. Besides, the suggestions based on experience with RTW/BI have already been made.

I honestly believe that the current Rome TW AI can be a near-perfect AI, if enough polishing is done. Knowing they add the new features first (princesses, pope, traders, diplomacy options, assassin movies etc.), they will continue programing the AI second. They are starting with that now! Why wait with your (consistent, reproducable) feedback for the patch, when you can get it right the first time??

I still don't see how the public can give any feedback on M2TW AI since they haven't seen the game yet. The kind of info you would need to do that isn't being released by CA.

Features are a problem for the AI programmer if they are changed too close to the end of the schedule. New features were being incorporated into RTW late in the development. If they do this in M2TW, the AI programmer is really going to have to scramble just to get something done in time that works. Near-perfect AI would be a huge undertaking and not finacially viable. The programmers are under time pressure. CA have stated that they aren't sitting around smoking cigarettes. We see features in RTW which the AI doesn't seem to have any awareness. It would appear that the AI programmer didn't have time to incorporate the feature into the AI.

The reason Puzz3D will never believe the Rome TW AI's potential, is not because he doesn't base himself on facts (he does), but because he views CA as incapable of changing their mind, which they are not. Plus I don't think most people take the time to understand why CA have made the decisions the way they did.

The gameplay in RTW isn't an accident. RTW was a big commercial success. What basis do you have for thinking that they are changing the formula now? Just read Bob Smith's interview, and you will see that they aren't.

CA never said why they made the running speeds 50% faster. All they've said is there's nothing wrong with the speeds. I certainly have spent a lot of time trying to understand why they did this. Increasing the speed and increasing the number of units to be controlled runs counter to actually being able to control those units.

[Lord Adherbal]

although I somehow prefer SEGA over Activision, I doubt it is the publishers who decide about the actual gameplay.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

,,Bob Smith: The overall aim with Medieval 2 is to improve upon and bring the awesome gameplay of Rome to the medieval era, while raising the spectacle of the Total War series to a whole new level.

The period is of course renowned for huge castles, lots of armour, colorful flags and heraldry. We set out to build new systems that can do justice to all of this. In terms of gameplay we looked to address all areas of the game and raise the bar across the board - from the turn-based campaign game to the real-time battles.

We have created high standards for ourselves and that is challenging but we're always striving to perfect the Total War formula. With Medieval 2 we're making another huge stride. "
This shows that the gameplay will be improved.It will be stil from rtw but it souns better when he says that will be improved.

[AussieGiant]

"The period is of course renowned for huge castles, lots of armour, colorful flags and heraldry. We set out to build new systems that can do justice to all of this. In terms of gameplay we looked to address all areas of the game and raise the bar across the board - from the turn-based campaign game to the real-time battles."

CA obviously understand that they need to continually pay attention to game play and not just graphics.

I think the most difficult thing about game play that nearly everyone agrees with is the moment speeds and kill rates.

Until this day I have never seen any CA person address why both were increased...AND THAT IS ANNOYING, given the impact to game play it has had.

Any kind of engagement on this would be very appreciated I believe.

@Myrddraal

maybe "bought" is a little inaccurate, but there was a financial transaction to acquire "publishing rights".

[Orda Khan]

Your bitterness about RTW permeates everything you post in this forum. You haven't seen the AI of M2TW, but you aren't even willing to give it a chance. If you can't see a problem with that, then I'm wasting my breath (figuratively speaking)


In the meantime, I've got no problem with you. Nothing personal, but it's much easier to read other people's complaints than it is yours, because of the manner of expressing those complaints.

Keep taking the pills

Maybe, as a moderator, you should consider the tone of your replies. Warnings are handed out for this type of thing, if you have received one then please ignore this post.
People suggest we should all give CA a chance (yet again) Well all I can say is this......
When one reads the last page of a book, all one knows is its ending. To comment on the book one needs to read its contents

......Orda

[SpencerH]

although I somehow prefer SEGA over Activision, I doubt it is the publishers who decide about the actual gameplay.

SEGA arent just the publisher's of the Total War series (as Activision was), CA is now owned by SEGA.

EDIT 1:

From the CA webpage

SEGA Buy The Creative Assembly

(March 9, 2005) The deal sees SEGA acquiring a company at the very pinnacle of games development - a unique group of talent, second to none, with an outstanding global reputation. The style and genre of The Creative Assembly’s games perfectly complements SEGA’s own long-term strategic vision, and SEGA will empower the team to continue on their existing development path whilst also expanding their resources for the future. SEGA will not only be releasing Spartan: Total Warrior this year, but will also be supporting The Creative Assembly to develop the Total War strategy series, as well as exploring ambitious new ventures.

EDIT 2:

Also if you weave your way through the SEGA SAMMY webpage you find CA listed under the Group Companies List. http://www.segasammy.co.jp/english/p...st_kaigai.html

[Myrddraal]

Orda... I'm lost for words.

If you take offense at my post, I appologise unreservedly. It certainly wasn't meant that way. If you want me to edit my post, I'll do that too, just point out the bits that need to go.

In your last post, you seem to think that I'm saying 'don't complain' which is akin to "you'll eat everything that you put on your plate, including the mushy peas!"

You must realise this isn't what I'm saying... Really Puzz, I don't know why you have to be so aggressive. You sound seriously stressed m8. This is a fansite for a game, let's get things into perspective.

I thought (clearly incorrectly) that I had managed to set a light enough tone to say what I felt needed to be said.

Just in case it's the 'keep taking the pills' that you're taking offense to, where I come from and whenever I've ever heard it used it has been a lighthearted way of ending a tough conversation. For example, I may be struggling with my work, and someone might say before leaving "See you later, and keep taking the pills"

If it's this that you're referring too:

In the meantime, I've got no problem with you. Nothing personal, but it's much easier to read other people's complaints than it is yours, because of the manner of expressing those complaints.

This was meant to take any sting out of my previous comment, which could be taken personally. As to the comment itself, I'm sure Puzz would be the last person to deny he is bitter about RTW, and when you feel that way, it is very hard to notice or stop it lingering in what you say. Sometimes it takes an outside observer to tell me when I'm being bitter, and I was trying to do this whilst at the same time keeping both of your respects.

I have clearly failed and if you can help improve my communication skills, then please do so.

Now for a bit of pettyness myself - I am very dissapointed that you responded in such a petty manner Orda. Not only have you directly attacked me, but you've commented (in a rather unsubtle attempt at subtlety) on my knowledge of the Totalwar series from beginning to end. I would like an appology for that.

Then, for my sake if not for anyone else's, let's drop the tension level a bit.

[R'as al Ghul]

But they are not going to argue with critics and I can't blame them.

I don't know what you mean by argue with critics.
Posting their opinions on matters would be more than I expect. I can't imagine Bob Smith in a Backroom thread with Yuuki.

The way I see it is that a huge part of the community had and has issues with the R:TW gameplay (no need to repeat them). Some of us post more actively than others and fight more for a better gameplay for all of us than the average poster. Puzz3d is such a person who speaks for many. And he repeatedly does so. Personally I admire his hardheadedness in this matter. There're few players among us who love the game as he does.
If CA doesn't react to this person who speaks for many they are making a huge mistake and they fail to interact with an important part of the community.

[L'Impresario]

Well since quotes from specific memberswere brought up from post #1, it would have been hard not to make the issue personal.

Maybe the thread could have been avoided altogether, as now one wouldn't be hard pressed to feel a certain polarization that leads the supposedly two "sides" towards either a debate that will end up offering nothing new, or entrenching them behind positions that could lead to "I told you so" instances when the game is out.
Ofcourse one could say that PMs could have not allowed the voicing of concers in an effective way, but still..

[Tahanaman]

I often wonder as I read through various threads in our beloved forums; what does it take for CA to listen to it's fan base and act upon their player fanbase suggestions?
I cant begin to second another person mind let alone the business ecthics of an entire company which in compasses many minds working in unison. However, CA's blatant absolve of not listening to its fan base is absolutely amazing.
Rather than argueing amongst ourselves about who said this and in what tone, we should all take alook at ourselves as to ask the question: Are we not glutten for punishment as we continue to purchase a product from a corporation that could careless about its fan base?
United we Stand, Divided we Fall. I say we stand united and argue are points to the corporation.
What I would really like to see is Bob Smith running flat out with a sword in chainmail armour against a rider on horseback in platemail and sword and tell me that his rendering speeds are credible in RTW! What a laugh....and worst yet, that laugh was his in the end when we all bought into RTW, complained about the speeds and CA did nothing to support us- the very fanbase who paid their salaries and those of their publisher when we bought the game!
Admittly, I yet again (as being an optimist) and wanting for punishment in spin marketing and corporate denial of poor game play issues will buy MIITW in hopes CA has made a full redemption or not.....