Note on whinging

[CBR]

Im a pessimist too. I have a long list of issues with RTW engine and unfortunately it seems most of them will still be there in M2TW.

Im here here because of two good years of MTW MP and I reserve my right to stay here as long as I want.

Also I dont think CA has been pushed away from Org. They are still posting here and Im quite sure we will see more of them when the game has come out. It was the same thing with RTW IIRC.

We also have to remember that the old garde apparently isnt involved much in M2TW and the new ones have more forums to check out compared to old days.


CBR

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

I think rome total war was better in many ways than shogun and mtw .MTW's graphics were shit so rome's graphics are better.But there is a price to pay for good graphics.Rome's price was the AI.Now with m2tw the AI will be improved.
The EXPERIENCE is very important.

[Riadach]

reminds me of an irish proverb

más maith leat moladh, faigh bás, más maith leat cáineadh pós, nó cruthaigh cluiche ríomhaireachta atá bunaithe ar thosca staire ach bí beagán mí-chruinn ó thaobh firící is cathanna srl de ar mhaithe le so-imearthacht an chluiche sin, agus bí cinnte naimhdeas náisúnaíoch a ath-adhaint ag an am céanna, ar mhaithe leis an gcraic tá fhios a'at.

if you like praise die, if you like criticism marry, or create a computer game based on historical circumstances but be a little bit inaccurate about facts and battles etc for the sake of playability of that game, and be sure to reinflame nationalistic enmnity at the same time, just for the craic you know.

Ah the boundless wisdom and foresight of the Gael :-)

[L'Impresario]

There was certainly much more criticism around when the RTW demo was approaching and after its release. Before that negative comments were less gameplay-oriented.
Nowdays opinions and facts about how the engine works and what can be expected have been enhanced by 2 years of experience and intensive, periodic dialogues about the patches. Certainly the points put forward now are much more substantiated than early RTW days.

And if you think Yuuki is being constantly pedantic, bitter etc. nowdays, you should have seen his cynicism after the demo came out heh
From my point of view though it turned out that he was right on most issues mentioned back then and since the earliest mods we 've seen some recurring themes regarding what needs to be "corrected".
At least if the game turns out to be a RTW rehash, some people who didn't like RTW won't be disillusioned, since expectations seem to be lower than with RTW. I also believe it 'll also lead to healthier approaches once the game is out.

Now, if some CA developper were to answer to all this, the precedent is set (things were uglier during those days, so it may be a bit misleading pointing to that thread but it's true that the Guild's arches have heard the story before).

EDIT: In a link in the link there's also nice proof that CA people have a human side or something akin to this heh

[sunsmountain]

That's already been done. At this point, the RTW AI doesn't matter. After M2TW is released, there will be a window of opportunity where CA looks at the forums to make a list of M2TW issues to be worked on for the patch.

No, that window of oppurtunity is NOW, during development time, since MTW2 is an evolutionary upgrade. Ie, the basis of the AI will not change, and tweaking small numbers can have big effects.

I honestly believe that the current Rome TW AI can be a near-perfect AI, if enough polishing is done. Knowing they add the new features first (princesses, pope, traders, diplomacy options, assassin movies etc.), they will continue programing the AI second. They are starting with that now! Why wait with your (consistent, reproducable) feedback for the patch, when you can get it right the first time??

The reason Puzz3D will never believe the Rome TW AI's potential, is not because he doesn't base himself on facts (he does), but because he views CA as incapable of changing their mind, which they are not. Plus I don't think most people take the time to understand why CA have made the decisions the way they did.

[Puzz3D]

No, that window of oppurtunity is NOW, during development time, since MTW2 is an evolutionary upgrade. Ie, the basis of the AI will not change, and tweaking small numbers can have big effects.

Have you seen any dev come here and ask for a list of things to be fixed the way they do for a patch? They've never done that in 6 years when a new product is being developed. Besides, the suggestions based on experience with RTW/BI have already been made.

I honestly believe that the current Rome TW AI can be a near-perfect AI, if enough polishing is done. Knowing they add the new features first (princesses, pope, traders, diplomacy options, assassin movies etc.), they will continue programing the AI second. They are starting with that now! Why wait with your (consistent, reproducable) feedback for the patch, when you can get it right the first time??

I still don't see how the public can give any feedback on M2TW AI since they haven't seen the game yet. The kind of info you would need to do that isn't being released by CA.

Features are a problem for the AI programmer if they are changed too close to the end of the schedule. New features were being incorporated into RTW late in the development. If they do this in M2TW, the AI programmer is really going to have to scramble just to get something done in time that works. Near-perfect AI would be a huge undertaking and not finacially viable. The programmers are under time pressure. CA have stated that they aren't sitting around smoking cigarettes. We see features in RTW which the AI doesn't seem to have any awareness. It would appear that the AI programmer didn't have time to incorporate the feature into the AI.

The reason Puzz3D will never believe the Rome TW AI's potential, is not because he doesn't base himself on facts (he does), but because he views CA as incapable of changing their mind, which they are not. Plus I don't think most people take the time to understand why CA have made the decisions the way they did.

The gameplay in RTW isn't an accident. RTW was a big commercial success. What basis do you have for thinking that they are changing the formula now? Just read Bob Smith's interview, and you will see that they aren't.

CA never said why they made the running speeds 50% faster. All they've said is there's nothing wrong with the speeds. I certainly have spent a lot of time trying to understand why they did this. Increasing the speed and increasing the number of units to be controlled runs counter to actually being able to control those units.

[TosaInu]

Have you seen any dev come here and ask for a list of things to be fixed the way they do for a patch? They've never done that in 6 years when a new product is being developed.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=17904

[AussieGiant]

NeoSpartan raises a very valid point and got me thinking.

Gentlemen, for me,

the bottom line at this point in time is this “product” is now maturing, and quite rapidly in my opinion.

This release is going to have consequences as to where CA ends up going in the mid term future.

Like all maturing industries or products, it becomes much harder to maintain the sales, profit margins and success at this point of the cycle.

For me focusing on Graphics (while very important) rather than game play at this stage of the product life cycle, is like Ford releasing a Mustang with a new spoiler kit and electric windows. With some marketing excellence, the “Brand” knowledge and influence that CA enjoys in this market segment, MTWII will be more than likely be successful if that is all they have done.

But, the writing is on the wall since the last model was released (RTW).

If companies at this stage of product management allocate too many resources to the spoilers and electric windows and not enough to the real performance areas of the product, the consumer will make you pay.

Right now, what CA needs to do is not change the shape of the Mustang which looks great already (graphics), but deal with the engine and suspension (game play).

The game looks great, that is something most people will agree on, but if you don’t revise and improve the performance characteristics of a car through 2 or 3 models then you are going to decline, because that is where the real sustainability of a “mature product” lies.

Now maybe CA’s believes their niche gives them the ability to ignore this for a little while longer, and maybe they are correct. But this is a delicate time in the overall scheme of things and generally the dudes and dudetts that run companies in their early stages of development do not do well when those same companies move to the following stages. Some adapt and realise, and some don’t. Those who don’t realise that the dynamics are different generally fall by the wayside.

I think Screwtype is a valid and important voice, even though the tone may not be always pleasant.

Equally if you can’t get past the tone of voice to understand and comprehend what the message behind it is, then you’re in some trouble. For me when someone stays on a board as long as many do here then it shows that they care. And when people care, then their likely to get upset and emotions will make them sound unhappy. The bottom line is whether the point is valid or not. And when it is, and there seems to be no definitive response from the manufacturer, then I would not expect a different result form most people.

So, we’ll all see very soon how things have gone in the dark rooms of CA.

In the end we can cut of the XXXX beer supplies in Queensland if things have not gone too well

[SpencerH]

Something that hasnt been mentioned is that SEGA now owns CA. I think it has had, and will have, a big positive effect on the final product.

I believe SEGA purchased CA to enter the strategy market not the RTS market. Given that assumption it makes sense to make a more "in depth" product.

[AussieGiant]

Certainly SEGA bought CA at a traditional time of a company's development.

They will hopefully be providing the cash and "environment" that CA needs in this next stage of work.

An important step CA has made is to essentially have two teams. One in the UK and one in Australia. While one is "active" the other is already on the next project.

The best thing about SEGA buying CA is that SEGA would have done a Business Analysis on them and come to the conclusion that the future is bright.

What that means it that the next 3 to 4 completely new games will be excellent...or they will lose a lot of money.

[Myrddraal]

SEGA didn't buy CA did they?

I thought they were the new publishers... like activision were before. No?

[TB666]

SEGA didn't buy CA did they?

I thought they were the new publishers... like activision were before. No?

Well according to wiki, SEGA acquired them for 30 million dollars.
What ever that means.

[Lord Adherbal]

although I somehow prefer SEGA over Activision, I doubt it is the publishers who decide about the actual gameplay.

[lars573]

SEGA didn't buy CA did they?

I thought they were the new publishers... like activision were before. No?

By and large in the games industry the relationship between publisher and developer is leige (publisher) and vassal (developer). There are very few developers that are 100% independant. ID, Valve, Epic, and Maxis are the only ones that I know of that are for sure where the publisher doesn't have a controlling interest in the developer. But you'll notice that 2 out of those 4 are more in the buisness of making and selling game engines that actual games. The amount of direct influence that the pub. has over the dev. depends on the corporate culture of the pub.

You'll also notice that CA has been passed from the most domineering and draconian publisher (EA). To the more hands off do your own thing publisher (SEGA). With Activision being in the middle in a bunch of ways.

[Myrddraal]

The amount of direct influence that the pub. has over the dev.