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Thread: Plan “B” gets the green light

  1. #1
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Plan “B” gets the green light

    Well folks the Food and Drug Administration has decided to allow women (18 yrs old) to buy the Morning After Pill over the counter without a prescription.

    What do you think? Worse thing since snakes offering apples to naked chicks or best thing for an overprotective mother to feed her promiscuous daughter for breakfast every morning?

    I say the more choices the better.

    The story…
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    FDA Eases Limits on Plan B Sales
    By ANDREW BRIDGES
    WASHINGTON - Women may buy the morning-after pill without a prescription _ but only with proof they're 18 or older, federal health officials ruled Thursday, capping a contentious 3-year effort to ease access to the emergency contraceptive.
    Girls 17 and younger still will need a doctor's note to buy the pills, called Plan B, the Food and Drug Administration told manufacturer Barr Pharmaceuticals Inc.
    The compromise decision is a partial victory for women's advocacy and medical groups that say eliminating sales restrictions could cut in half the nation's number of unplanned pregnancies. Opponents have argued that wider access could increase promiscuity.
    The pills are a concentrated dose of the same drug found in many regular birth-control pills. When a woman takes the pills within 72 hours of unprotected sex, they can lower the risk of pregnancy by up to 89 percent. If she already is pregnant, the pills have no effect.
    The earlier it's taken, the more effective Plan B is. But it can be hard to find a doctor to write a prescription in time, especially on weekends and holidays. Hence the push to allow nonprescription sales.
    Barr has said it hopes to begin nonprescription sales of Plan B by the end of the year. The pills will be sold only from behind the counter at pharmacies _ so the pharmacist can check photo identification _ but not at convenience stores or gas stations.
    There isn't enough scientific evidence that young teens can safely use Plan B without a doctor's supervision, Dr. Andrew von Eschenbach, the FDA's acting commissioner, said in a memo.
    But Barr did prove that over-the-counter use is safe for older teens and adults _ and licensed pharmacies are used to checking for proof of age 18 before selling tobacco and certain other products, von Eschenbach wrote in explaining the agency's age cutoff.
    "This approach should help ensure safe and effective use of the product," he concluded.
    Plan B's maker was disappointed that FDA imposed the age restriction and pledged to continue working the agency to try to eliminate it.
    "While we still feel that Plan B should be available to a broader age group without a prescription, we are pleased that the Agency has determined that Plan B is safe and effective for use by those 18 years of age and older as an over-the-counter product," said Bruce L. Downey, Barr's chairman.
    As a condition of approval, Barr agreed to track whether pharmacists are enforcing the age restriction, by, among other things, sending anonymous shoppers to buy Plan B. FDA said Barr is to conduct that formal tracking at least twice in the first year of sales and annually thereafter, and report stores that break the rules to their state pharmacy licensing boards.
    But Barr also will conduct a national education campaign to raise awareness of emergency contraception, among both women and health providers.
    Nine states _ Washington, California, New Mexico, Alaska, Hawaii, Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts and Vermont _ already allow women of any age to buy Plan B without a doctor's prescription from certain pharmacies. Proponents of those pharmacy access programs believe that minors won't see any change in those states, because the pharmacist already technically writes a prescription.
    The FDA approved prescription-only sales of Plan B in 1999, and the quest to sell nationwide without a doctor's note began in 2003. That year, the agency's independent scientific advisers overwhelmingly backed nonprescription sales for all ages, and FDA's staff scientists agreed.
    But higher-ranking officials rejected that decision, citing concern about young teens' use of the pills without a doctor's oversight. Barr reapplied, asking that women 16 and older be allowed to buy Plan B without a prescription. Then, last August, the FDA postponed a final decision indefinitely, saying the agency needed to determine how to enforce those age restrictions.
    FDA's handling of Plan B sparked a firestorm: Critics charged that political ideology had trumped science; a reproductive-rights group sued to force FDA to settle the issue; and congressional auditors concluded the agency may have made decisions without reviewing all the evidence.
    Still, nationwide nonprescription sales were widely consider a doomed issue until last month, when the FDA reversed itself and said it would reconsider if Barr agreed to an age 18 restriction. That surprise announcement came on the eve of a Senate committee hearing on whether to confirm von Eschenbach as FDA's new head.
    Thursday's decision is expected to remove a Senate roadblock to his full confirmation.
    "While I am glad that the drumbeat for a return to a science-based FDA has had some positive impact, this decision still represents a compromise, one that could have the unintended consequence of hurting young women's health," said Dr. Susan Wood, who resigned as FDA's women's health chief to protest the agency's 2005 delay.
    But opponent Wendy Wright, president of Concerned Women for America, said Plan B's wider availability could give women a false sense of security, since it isn't as effective as regular birth control. Wright also worries that adult men who have sex with minor girls could force the pills upon them.
    "Statutory rape is a very serious problem. This decision is going to allow statutory rapists to rely on this drug to cover up their abuse," Wright said.
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  2. #2
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    I'll say good, not great. I assume there are possible side-effects, and some women may react differently to the medication than others. I'm also sure there will be women who will take multiple pills, because they "reaaaaaaalllly don't want to get preggers". What effect will this have on their bodies?

    Of course, for all I know you can already buy these in clubs from the same guys who sell X, viagra, and rophynol.
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  3. #3
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Freedom prevails !

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Sure, why not? Less than a dozen people have died from it so why not? Of course if it was held to the standards of other drugs I'd never be on the market. This is the same pill (RU 486), correct?
    Last edited by Vladimir; 08-24-2006 at 16:40.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    This is the same pill (RU 486), correct?
    No - it is a very different product with a different (to my knowledge much "milder") active ingredient.

  6. #6
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    I hope that's true. This seems like al all-round good thing. It doesn't kill off fetuses (err, or feti? ) but mealy prevents fertilization.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  7. #7
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    Great plan, but the minimum age requirement is set way too high. Fifteen or fourteen would be better.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    In case anybody is interested in more information - here is Barr's product website on "Plan B"

    A good step in the right direction - certainly a better option than abortion.

  9. #9
    Member Member danfda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Great plan, but the minimum age requirement is set way too high. Fifteen or fourteen would be better.
    Agreed. Sex happens before age 18, whether or not parents and congressmen want it to.
    "Its just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. Then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns and also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?"

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  10. #10
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by danfda
    Agreed. Sex happens before age 18, whether or not parents and congressmen want it to.
    Pretty sure there are a few congressmen that can attest to that.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    Of course women/girls under 18 still have access to it - just not as OTC-drug, which might not be perfect considering the 72h threshold, but is a workable compromise IMO.

  12. #12
    Nobody Important Member Somebody Else's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    I wasn't aware they weren't available... but then, I live a lot of the time in China.

    Those little rubber thingies break far too easily...
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  13. #13
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    I don't know how anyone can say increased irresponsiblity and increased numbers of abortions is a great thing, unless increasing aborted embryos in and of itself is a goal for some of you.

    I also don't like the fact that you cannot raise the possible health consequences and side affects without being branded a bible-thumping idealogue. The fact is the jury's still out on it's impact on a small number of women's health.

    As for 14, come on Louis... maybe we should give them out to Kindergarteners while we're at it. American students under the age of 18 can get expelled for bringing cough syrup or an aspirin to school (zero-tolerance) but you want to allow pre-teens to perform self-abortions over the counter? Don't you think that's a bit medically irresponsible? What about when said 14 year old has an adverse reaction and nobody knows why. Do you want to explain to her mother it's a noble sacrafice for progressivism? When did parents become the enemy?

    It's this all or none extremism on the pro-choice side that drives me nuts (and yes, I know, pro-lifers are even more so, but we're talking about you for a moment...). At some point, wouldn't improving youth's behavior to the point where such measures are unnecessary be a better thing? If kids are too irresponsbile to use proper contraception, should they be having sex in the first place? Nope. We gotta abort as many embryos and fetuses as we can...

    I agree that access to the morning-after pill is important, and if it's been proven to be free of side effects and the rumors of a small minority of women having averse, even fatal reactions have been disproven, then fine. But the idea of prescriptions is to monitor potentially harmful medications, not to slap shackles on people. Am I being denied my liberties because I need a prescription for Ambien when I travel to China? I think we should let the medical community, not the legal one and certainly not the political one determine whether the pill should require a prescription. But then, I'm just one of those knuckle-dragging cavemen that wants to enslave all women.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 08-24-2006 at 20:26.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Great plan, but the minimum age requirement is set way too high. Fifteen or fourteen would be better.
    They also have sex (and get pregnant) at 12. Why not that?


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  15. #15
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    We gotta abort as many embryos and fetuses as we can...
    It is my understanding that there is no “abort” to it.

    When a woman takes the pills within 72 hours of unprotected sex, they can lower the risk of pregnancy by up to 89 percent. If she already is pregnant, the pills have no effect.
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  16. #16
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    It prevents the attachment of a fertilized egg, I believe. I'm not saying I'm opposed to the techonolgy. I'm saying we shouldn't be dancing in the streets patting ourselves on the back, telling ourselves how enlightened we are and start putting them next to the Flintstones vitamin in our daughters' lunchboxes. At the end of the day, it's a testimony to our inability to neither control our libidos or plan responsibly. I'm not going to applaud that.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  17. #17
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    At the end of the day, it's a testimony to our inability to neither control our libidos or plan responsibly. I'm not going to applaud that.
    And I would never ask you to. I personally think self control is one thing most people are seriously lacking.
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  18. #18
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    wouldn't improving youth's behavior to the point where such measures are unnecessary be a better thing?
    This is just unrealistic, it goes against human nature and 'normal' behaviour. We are here to reproduce, our hormones command us, our mind may be able to hold us back, but the flesh is weak, as they say.

    I'm not saying the morning after pill is a good method of birth control (I've even said I have my doubts about the health impacts of the common birth control pill in a thread once), but there are far worse ones (abortion for one), and sometimes, this is 'the only' choice (after a condom breaks for instance).
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    See, DocB, I like you, so please don't take this the wrong way.... but what you just said is utter BS in my book. We are not apes at the zoo. We CAN control our impulses. If an attractive woman at my company comes in wearing a low cut blouse and tight capri pants showing a thong outline, the men don't immediately unzip their flies and relieve themselves of sexual tension. Saying 'we just can't control ourselves' is a copout, and one that works equally well for rapists or child molesters as it does for irresponsible sexually active folks of all ages. "I just can't help myself" is no excuse at all.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  20. #20
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    This is just unrealistic, it goes against human nature and 'normal' behaviour. We are here to reproduce, our hormones command us, our mind may be able to hold us back, but the flesh is weak, as they say.
    My hormones command me to visit the Backroom daily.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  21. #21
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    If an attractive woman at my company comes in wearing a low cut blouse and tight capri pants showing a thong outline, the men don't immediately unzip their flies and relieve themselves of sexual tension.
    You don't think I'm going to lose my job over that do you? Uh oh, time to update the resume!!!
    RIP Tosa

  22. #22
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
    You don't think I'm going to lose my job over that do you? Uh oh, time to update the resume!!!
    Wash your hands first. You know how annoying sticky keyboards are.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  23. #23
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    Wash your hands first. You know how annoying sticky keyboards are.
    I wiped them on her blouse, I guess that's a no no as well... damn!!!
    RIP Tosa

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Don, I really have some problems following your points here.

    You seem to accuse those who applaud this decision of an "all or non extremism" while at the same time you are (repeatedly) referring to something as "abortion" that has nothing to do with abortion (do you generally condemn contraceptives? if yes, why? if not - why this one?), which seems to show that you are approaching this issue not witha lot of objectiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    I agree that access to the morning-after pill is important, and if it's been proven to be free of side effects and the rumors of a small minority of women having averse, even fatal reactions have been disproven, then fine. But the idea of prescriptions is to monitor potentially harmful medications, not to slap shackles on people.
    What is it you want here?
    There have been medical tests, this product already is on the market and is available without prescription in 9 states of the US.
    According to Barr's website Plan B has been available without subscription in Canada since April 2005 and Canada is the 34th (!) country to make this drug available without prescription.

    There is always a risk that side effects of a drug are only discovered after it has been on the market for years, but how much testing do you think is appropriate?
    Are you questioning the whole procedure for drug approval or is this a very special case?

  25. #25
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    I said if there's evidence that the drug is safe, that's fine. It would appear there is. But honestly Ser, how many drugs are safer that DO require a presription? Where's the outcry over these?

    I would also like some consistency when it comes to distributing drugs and performing medical procedures on youth with or without parental notification and/or consent. I find it the height of hypocricy that a school nurse cannot give a 17 year old female a Pamprin, but her 12 year old sister can go get a 2nd trimester abortion without her parents ever even being told, let alone consenting to it. If we really believe kids can make that kind of decision for themselves, why don't we set the age of majority to 12 and have done with it? What's so special about abortion that kids seem to have better judgement with it then they would with tobacco, alcohol, firearms, voting gambling or any other age restricted behviors? Hell, let's sign them all up for selective service (the draft pool, but not necessarily drafted) while we're at it.

    As for the choice of the term abortion versus contraception... the morning after pill, as I understand it, doesn't prevent fertilization. It prevents the attachement of the egg to the uterine lining after fertilization. I'm not opposing it on these grounds, I'm not even opposed to abortion in the first 10 weeks, but I don't consider that to be contraception, strictly speaking.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 08-24-2006 at 21:42.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  26. #26
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    They also have sex (and get pregnant) at 12. Why not that?
    This Plan B should be available to 12 year olds, but not over the counter. At age twelve, I think parents should know about their children engaging in sexual activity (if not try to prevent it), if only to prevent abuse.

    I picked 14 or 15 as the age at which girls should be able to have sex without parental consent. I know I would've been horrified if I would've been forced to discuss my sexual experiments with my parents at that age.*


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    *note to self; improve lousy sentence construction, Louis: you did not have sexual experiments with your parents at that age.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    in fact, not at any age.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    besides, be a man and admit your horror only stemmed from the prospect of being forced to admit to a lack of sexual experiments at that age.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by Don C.
    come on Louis... American students under the age of 18 can get expelled for bringing cough syrup or an aspirin to school (zero-tolerance) but you want to allow pre-teens to perform self-abortions over the counter?
    They're teens and they're not abortions.

    And do you realize how hot 15 year old cheerleaders look nowadays? It would be a crime against humanity to prevent these girls from sharing the carnal pleasures they've got to offer. And if they are allowed to have sex, they should be allowed prevention of undesired pregnancies too - without any parental interference.
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  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    As for the choice of the term abortion versus contraception... the morning after pill, as I understand it, doesn't prevent fertilization. It prevents the attachement of the egg to the uterine lining after fertilization.
    According to information provided by Barr (pdf-document), the principal effects of Plan B are prevention of ovulation or fertilization (which would clearly qualify it as contraceptive to my knowledge), and the inhibition of implantation is only a secondary effect (I do not have the sufficient knowledge but my assumption would be, that which effect dominates depends on when within the 72h you use the drug)
    Of course you can always doubt the statements of the pharma company (especially as for marketing on the North American market Barr certainly is very keen on emphasizing the contraceptive nature of the drug), but I will use this information as a basis for discussion as it is 11pm and I do not have the time to look for more independent reports

    But honestly Ser, how many drugs are safer that DO require a presription? Where's the outcry over these?
    Do you have any specific cases in mind or is this a hypothesis?
    Don't get me wrong - I have no doubt that every pharma company wants to play down risks and hopes to get drugs on the market without prescription - but so far I have no indication that this specific drug is treated differently than others - do you have more information?

    I find it the height of hypocricy that a school nurse cannot give a 17 year old female a Pamprin, but her 12 year old sister can go get a 2nd trimester abortion without her parents ever even being told, let alone consenting to it. If we really believe kids can make that kind of decision for themselves, why don't we set the age of majority to 12 and have done with it? What's so special about abortion that kids seem to have better judgement with it then they would with tobacco, alcohol, firearms, voting gambling or any other age restricted behviors? Hell, let's sign them all up for selective service (the draft pool, but not necessarily drafted) while we're at it.
    And here I can only agree. That's why I think that the decsioon is a good compromise. I would oppose allowing a teenager to have an abortion without at least having to consult her parents or legal guardian (of course it is another issue who can finally make the decision - I also would have a problem with parents being able to force their daughter to deliver a baby, but that's another discussion).
    I think below 18 a girl should either need a prescription or the consent of her parents (due to the rather tight 72h time frame I would prefer to leave open the choice between the two options instead of prescription being the only option)
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 08-24-2006 at 22:09.

  28. #28
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Well, I didn't know that the morning after pill prevented fertilization of the egg. In that case, I am certainly in the wrong and even by my defintion, it would qualify as a form of contraception. Please allow me to extricate my size 10 loafer from my jaws.

    Please understand, when it comes to teenage abortions my agitation comes from a position of parental rights, not anti-aborition.

    I still stand by my statement that the elimination of the need (not the legality) of the procedure should be our ultimate goal as a society.

    Curses, Red Baron! I've been foiled by you again!
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  29. #29
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    See, DocB, I like you, so please don't take this the wrong way.... but what you just said is utter BS in my book. We are not apes at the zoo. We CAN control our impulses. If an attractive woman at my company comes in wearing a low cut blouse and tight capri pants showing a thong outline, the men don't immediately unzip their flies and relieve themselves of sexual tension. Saying 'we just can't control ourselves' is a copout, and one that works equally well for rapists or child molesters as it does for irresponsible sexually active folks of all ages. "I just can't help myself" is no excuse at all.
    While you are right in saying that we SHOULD be able to control ourselves, how realistic does it seem to you to have a world where no one has sex before 18 ? Which society has achieved that ? How can it be done ?

    I'd like to think we're still in control of ourselves, but I guess some people just don't want to be in control, just like some people don't give a damn about the environment, work, family and whatever else, some just don't give a damn about the risks of sex and decided that all they want is to activate the pleasure switch. There will always be people like this. We can never create an ideal society were everybody lives according to a certain moral code.

    I admit my response wasn't formulated in the best possible way, but we are for a large part slaves to our genes, and they just want to make lots of copies, as soon as possible. Sure, we've evolved up to the point were it is often better to postpone the whole reproduction thing so we can create a better environment for our children, but whether this is a priority or not depends on the person.
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  30. #30
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan “B” gets the green light

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    parental rights
    When talking about teenagers, this notion seems rather absurd to me. You actually think you can control the average teenager ? Most could have virtual financial independency, kicking them out is a hell of lot of trouble (at least over here) and everything you forbid they'll just do behind your back, the more you'll rant against it the more they'll want to do it. Not to mention most will be on the exact opposite political spectrum as their parents, just because...

    Seriously, when it comes to teenagers, I'd say prayer is your best option. and I'm an agnostic.
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

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