Bioshock non-gameplay discussion

[doc_bean]

Glad i read this thread while DLing the demo, cancelled the DL.

Bioshock looks like a nice game, but I'll live without it. I avoided HL2 because of the online activation thing and i'll avoid this game too.

I've already reinstalled civ4 more than five times on different computers, and that game is two years old or so. I ain't buying for the right to play a game, I'll only pay to own it.

Lemur, good luck with fighting the man !

[Lemur]

No response as yet to any of my inquiries; I imagine they're overwhelmed with angry users. I'll give it a little time before I launch into more emails.

[Bob the Insane]

I ain't buying for the right to play a game, I'll only pay to own it.

Interesting statement...

From a contractual perspective the only thing you own is a license to use the software. There is no transfer of intellectual property rights when you purchase a game. Technically you do not own any software you did not write yourself or commision to be written for you...

Not Windows, not MS Office, not IE, not your games, none of it owned by you. You own license(s) to use it and the copies of the media containing it.

Is this not the case?

If it is they why do we get so upset when companies make an effort to enforce this aggreement that we have entered into?

Is it because the aggreement is not properly defined at time of purchase? Because it is inherently "wrong"?

If it only when they are overly streniously implimented? Is it because the limited number of installs implies a distinct lifespan for the software becuase lets face it, we are going to upgrade machines...

[Lemur]

Well, one simple line is crossed with online activation: My license is worthless if their server licensing goes down, if they stop paying for the server, if they go insane, or if they go out of business.

I can stick Fallout into my PC and play it, even though Black Isle and Interplay are dead and gone. If every game company begins this activation nonsense, PC gaming will lose its entire back catalog over time.

I know, I know, someone from the BioShock team is now claiming that they will release a patch down the road that removes the activation. I guess we had all better download and archive that patch as soon as it comes out, 'cause the game will not install properly without it in 2010.

Bob the Insane, let me come back at you with a different example. When I buy a book, I am not buying the full intellectual rights to it. A copy of Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants does not give me the right to make a movie from that book. On the other hand, Bantam or Dell Ray or whatever publisher does not gain the right to inspect my home, check my bookshelf, and lock my front door if it detects a photocopier.

This is an established customer/producer relationship, and I will oppose publishers' attempts to expand their rights at the expense of yours and mine. Everybody can make money, everybody can enjoy the work, but fer cryin' out loud, don't treat your customers like criminals.

[doc_bean]

Interesting statement...

From a contractual perspective the only thing you own is a license to use the software. There is no transfer of intellectual property rights when you purchase a game. Technically you do not own any software you did not write yourself or commision to be written for you...

If you buy a book you can read it as many times as you want, yet you don't own the IP either. Same thing for me.

Not Windows, not MS Office, not IE, not your games, none of it owned by you. You own license(s) to use it and the copies of the media containing it.

Sure, I however expect a decent user license, not the sort of crap they try to push onto us these days.

Is this not the case?

If it is they why do we get so upset when companies make an effort to enforce this aggreement that we have entered into?

Is it because the aggreement is not properly defined at time of purchase? Because it is inherently "wrong"?

It's pretty much the same discussion as with the music industry and how they claim owning something on cd doesn't mean you have the right to own it on mp3. You buy the cd for the music, you don't own it in the IP way and you shouldn't, but you payed money to be able to listen to the music (or the recording), however you prefer. This tends to be the way the consumer views the deal.

If it only when they are overly streniously implimented? Is it because the limited number of installs implies a distinct lifespan for the software becuase lets face it, we are going to upgrade machines...

I think we need a standard for 'proper use' of software, which protects consumers against this sort of thing.

EDIT: well, Lemur said it better than me.

[Bob the Insane]

All fair points, I was really trying to play devils advocate there...

I think we accept that we do not own the rights to the game, but we do expect, from previous experience, that said license has no lifespan and is good for as long as the physical media holds out, or longer if the publisher is feeling generous...

Are these new measures an over-reaction to digital rights issues and the speed of change in the digital media technology...

[Slyspy]

Of course the fact that you must hand over your cash before you even see the license information (ie the contract) is interesting.

[TinCow]

Having not read this thread in some time, I was very surprised yesterday when AVG popped up with a virus warning about Bioshock. I checked the net and quickly found that it was a false positive and solved the situation by temporarily turning off Resident Shield. However, in the process I found out about the limit of 5 installations.

I am absolutely outraged.

I cannot possibly emphasize that enough. My wife and I are both gamers and we both installed Bioshock immediately. That means we now have a grand total of 3 installations left. We like installing game mods regularly, which means frequent re-installations. I also have a particular habit of installing very old games many years after I first purchased them. This all means one thing: I am guaranteed to burn through my 5 installations very, very quickly. This is unbelievable. Nowhere on the box does it indicate that the number of installations is limited. You are essentially conned into renting a game for a short period of time.

Bioshock is a great game. I am enjoying it more than I have enjoyed a FPS in several years. However, I will never buy a Irrational Games title ever again. That is a shame, since they were formerly on my 'must buy no matter what' list.

[frogbeastegg]

I will never buy a Irrational Games title ever again

Noooo! Don't say that - the publisher make the decisions about copy protection, not the developers! Irrational are behind some great games - games which usually don't sell without their being blamed for a decision which wasn't in their hands to begin with.

Throw stones at 2K. They made the decision.

Er, also, you do know that if you uninstall the game you get that activation back? So if you uninstall it from your wife's computer you will then have 4 installs again. The problem arrises if you do not uninstall the game correctly, e.g. hard drive failure, windows registry crash.

:hate for online activation:

I agree. I loathe it. I detest it. I like to know my games will work when I install them and continue to work for years; online activation introduces many potential reasons that they will not do so.


Playing devil's advocate a moment, it's interesting to see that Bioshock has rocketed to number 1 in the UK charts and, according to people who've looked, the PC version hasn't yet been cracked. Nasty as the copy protection is for legitimate users, it does appear to be working. It's the first few weeks where most of the sales are made.

[TinCow]

Noooo! Don't say that - the publisher make the decisions about copy protection, not the developers! Irrational are behind some great games - games which usually don't sell without their being blamed for a decision which wasn't in their hands to begin with.

Throw stones at 2K. They made the decision.

Er, also, you do know that if you uninstall the game you get that activation back? So if you uninstall it from your wife's computer you will then have 4 installs again. The problem arrises if you do not uninstall the game correctly, e.g. hard drive failure, windows registry crash.

Well, that is somewhat better, but that must mean that the game updates the authorization server when it is uninstalled, something that also displeases me. If you are correct, then I will rework my statement into: I will never buy any game that uses this form of copyright protection, no matter who the developer is. With luck, Irrational will see the error of their ways and either part company with 2K or convince them never to pull this kind of stunt again. If not, I suppose I will no longer be a customer.

[drone]

Noooo! Don't say that - the publisher make the decisions about copy protection, not the developers! Irrational are behind some great games - games which usually don't sell without their being blamed for a decision which wasn't in their hands to begin with.

Throw stones at 2K. They made the decision.

Irrational Games no longer exists, they are now 2K Boston/2K Australia (bought by TakeTwo in Jan 2006), and thus the developer and publisher are the same company. From what I've read on the forum and seen in interviews with Ken, the use of SecuRom and activation limits were decisions made by them. They may have been pressured by the parent company, maybe not. They cannot be completely blameless here, especially since the activation servers were under their control.

Er, also, you do know that if you uninstall the game you get that activation back? So if you uninstall it from your wife's computer you will then have 4 installs again. The problem arrises if you do not uninstall the game correctly, e.g. hard drive failure, windows registry crash.

Actually, you don't. That was the idea, but someone messed up and it doesn't work. They are currently developing a key revoke tool that you will need to run before uninstalling. If you have a disk crash, you are out of luck. One more reason why activations are just a bad idea. Check the SecuRom/activation entry here:
http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html
So you have to uninstall BioShock before reinstalling Windows on your machine, that's not bad, right? If all games go to something like this, you are going to be spending hours uninstalling games and revoking keys before you can even get around to dealing with the OS install. Completely unacceptable, and a terrible precedent to set for future games. If they truly want to kill off PC gaming, this is a good first step.

Playing devil's advocate a moment, it's interesting to see that Bioshock has rocketed to number 1 in the UK charts and, according to people who've looked, the PC version hasn't yet been cracked. Nasty as the copy protection is for legitimate users, it does appear to be working. It's the first few weeks where most of the sales are made.

The game probably would have been #1 anyway. It's been one of the most anticipated games for the past year, and there is nothing else out right now that could compete. I agree, it hasn't been cracked yet, but at what cost?

These are the problems so far, as I understand them. Correct me if I don't have everything right:

• Activation in general. Now set for 5 installs on 5 separate machines. No key revoke mechanism that works yet. Who knows how you will reinstall the game in the distant future.
• Running with separate user accounts on the same machine uses a key for each user that tries to run the game.
• Running with different OSes (Vista/XP) on the same machine uses a key for each.
• SecuRom. Not as malicious as people are hyping. The keys are left behind, as other games also using SecuRom for protection (STALKER, NWN2) but with no activation. The demo did not actually install SecuRom, but it was present.
• SecuRom. Seems to blacklist official Microsoft programs (Process Explorer mainly, rumors of others), will not start the game or complete the install if PE has been run since PC powerup. Also seems to conflict with AVG anti-virus, will not run with protection turned on. Seems to have problems with some DVD writers as well, won't install properly (didn't M2TW have the same issue?)
• IT staff for the activation servers were woefully unprepared for the launch, servers in both the US and Oz failed. The US one was down for hours (6?), since no one was around to monitor it.
• Installations that failed due to these problems seem to use keys without actually getting the game working.
• The tech support numbers printed on the box for the North American launch were flipped. The US number was actually the Canadian number, the Canadian number was actually the US number. Hilarity ensues, eh?
• Neither 2K or SecuRom wanted responsibility for installation issues, and originally passed the buck, endearing both with the paying customers. This has been resolved.

All this adds up to a lot of angry customers, ticked off fans, and bad press. To their credit, Ken has admitted they screwed up royally, and they are working to fix the problems. But why they decided to try a brand new (and fairly radical) CP scheme for a game this size is beyond my comprehension. The only way they could have screwed up the release any more would have been to have the goatse pic show up in the title screen. Could you imagine how much praise and adulation they would have gotten if they had just stuck with a DVD key or disk check? It's such a shame, this game was something I've wanted since last summer. I'll be waiting for the "Gold" edition, or whatever release they put out without the activation limit. Until then, I'll be keeping my $50. I don't rent games.

[frogbeastegg]

Irrational Games no longer exists, they are now 2K Boston/2K Australia

My mistake. I don't follow developers or publishers, as a rule. I thought they were still a standard studio, and thus at their publisher's mercy.

If you have a disk crash, you are out of luck.

I know. I did say.

Check the SecuRom/activation entry here:
http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html

Lovely. According to the things I had read the forthcoming tool was to remove the SecuROM leftovers after the game/demo was removed. The activations were reported as working correctly, and increased to give more slack. One might suppose that sometimes you do get your activation back, others not.

So you have to uninstall BioShock before reinstalling Windows on your machine, that's not bad, right?

No, it's bad. Like I said.

In the 12 or so years since I got my first PC I’ve had 3 failed hard drives, 1 failed motherboard, 1 entire PC melted by a power surge (through a surge protector!), and 1 processor burn itself out because the idiot who installed it forgot to put a fan on. I back up my important files to 5 seperate locations! The last thing I want is software which can’t be smoothly reinstalled after each unexpected disaster. I don't like XP needing to activate itself online, let alone a game.

I didn't get much choice about whether to buy into limited activations, online activation and SecuROM. My copy was opened and installing when this news appeared on a site I read; by that point I couldn't take the game back if I wanted to. I would not describe myself as thrilled. I've had the AGV problems too, wasted the best part of an hour chasing imaginary trojans on my PC and worrying about the potential infection of my writing manuscripts. No, definitely not thrilled. This is one of very, very few PC games I've brought one release day. I picked up the retail version because I won’t use Steam, and lo and behold I get the very same online intrusion I was aiming to avoid. Not thrilled one bit.

I'm not under any false impression that this is somehow a Good Thing(TM). It isn't.

The game probably would have been #1 anyway.

Until the last few weeks before release I did not get the impression Bioshock was especially anticipated amongst the general gaming public; if it had been I wouldn’t have been so easily able to studiously ignore it until it was finished.

The pro-copy protection argument always runs that the more popular a game the more it will be pirated. Which makes sense. Therefore if it was destined to be a number 1 hit it needs the protection more.

One may wonder how many sales end up being lost to people who refuse to buy the game because of the intrusive copy protection, and how this balances against potential sales lost to piracy. How many potential pirates will actually buy the game anyway, instead of waiting a bit longer for the cracked version?

[Lemur]

Playing devil's advocate a moment, it's interesting to see that Bioshock has rocketed to number 1 in the UK charts and, according to people who've looked, the PC version hasn't yet been cracked. Nasty as the copy protection is for legitimate users, it does appear to be working. It's the first few weeks where most of the sales are made.

The activation has been cracked, if you believe what you read. There is also a no-CD crack making the rounds. What seems to be holding the bad guys up is the creation of some other bits that have to do with the latest version of SecuROM.

The activation is what cheesed off paying customers like me. And it's already down for the count. What a horrible implementation, 2K. What a dreadful mistake.

Please note that uninstalling the game will not get your license back, according to all reports I have read. That's why 2K/SecuROM will be issuing a license tool someday. In the meantime, guard your install jealously. There is a rather complicated way to back up your license, and it isn't official or approved, but it exists. Lots of mucking about in the registry, so it ain't for the faint of heart.

-edit-

I see Penny Arcade has another brilliant BioShock comic up. This one contains two naughty words, but is very funny.

[Ironside]

The voice of the net is starting to get heard pretty far, this was in one of the major newspaper's review of Bioshock in Sweden.

Däremot finns det problem med kopieringsskyddet på PC-versionen, något som Ken Levine, "Bioshocks" pappa, lovat lösa.

Translated:
"On the other hand (refered before that the game works perfectly, no visible flaws) does it exist problems with the copy protection on the PC-version, something that Ken Levine, "Bioshocks daddy", promised to resolve.

Nothing much, but that's the first time I've seen copy protection even mentioned in a newspaper review.