Report: North Korea Conducts Nuke Test

[Strike For The South]

No. We should ignore it.

[KukriKhan]

War? Anybody? Am I alone in thinking we should drop some bombs on Pyongyang over this?

Not today, Son. Maybe tomorrow. Let's see what happens next.

[Ice]

War? Anybody? Am I alone in thinking we should drop some bombs on Pyongyang over this?

Not yet. I'm getting to that point though.

[spmetla]

I'd support cutting all trade ties and freebies (food) with North Korea and perhaps keeping a carrier in the Sea of Japan for while or something. Just to do something. Going to war over this would screw things up big time, if we weren't in Iraq or Afghanistan maybe it'd be useful but as Redleg has pointed out the North Koreas have freaking mountain bunkers and underground railroads.

[Xiahou]

DPRK has said previously said that they'd consider sanctions an act of war. I guess we might get to see whether they're bluffing or not- that's if we can actually agree on sanctions. It seems like the Russians and Chinese are planning on continuing the "let's negotiate more" obfuscation that they've used so well previously.

[Papewaio]

Well NK is the madman at their doorstep not just on South Koreas. So they have the largest vested interest in not getting Nuked out of the five permanent UN security members.

Also if a war was fought against NK, we would want China on our side... they would have a far easier approach then the rest of the world going through South Korea. It would also mean that NK would be fighting on two land fronts, plus the possibility of amphibous assault (much easier if we have China on our side) from both sides of the pennisula...

[Samurai Waki]

China sees no benefit in a Nuclear North Korea. It weakens their position in the Pacific, if all of their economic, and military adversaries go nuclear as well. If North Korea thinks China and Russia is on their side, they are sadly mistaken. A Nuclear South Korea, Japan, Philippines, and Possibly Taiwan is not good news for China. That is why China is telling everyone to hold back, and try to negotiate some sort of deal, don't think for even a second that China is doing anything because the US and China are good friends. They want this, because if everyone starts going nuclear, China can say goodbye to any hope of Dominating the Western Pacific.

[Avicenna]

How is his post over the top? You realise that this is a dictator that has already starved MILLIONS of his own people. He wouldn't give two farts in the wind nuking millions more. I was there for a year (South Korea) and understand the threat just on the conventional sense. Now he has N U K E S. At this point, Matthius Julius point could be at the minimum of what could happen. I know it makes everyone feel better to talk and have warm fuzzies and pretend that North korea is no threat (see Clinton Administration, UN, EU, etc) but now we've buried our collective heads so far up our asses that we will atleast have the ability to give them a long sentious kiss goodbye. We're ####ed period. This is gonna get very bloody and if you want to weep for the innocent people who die because of the nature of warfare, there is not enough water in the ocean to be shed for the loss that is about to happen...

Now, would you like to dismiss my opinion as well as over the top?

You think that North Korea would try to build an empire by attacking China? Because that's part of the post I said was OTT.

Wakizashi: nuclear Taiwan and Phillippines? How?

[MSB]

Despite what anybody may say North Korea wants an empire. North Korea may thing as China as an ally (after all they are both communist), but China's loyalty lies with the UN and the US. If North Korea nukes another nearby country China will have no choice but to act against them through invasion and cutting off supplies.

[Don Corleone]

Well, it would appear that those who felt that North Korea was pursuing nuclear weapons to protect itself from a pre-emptive US strike were wrong. They want the US to allow it to continue to forge American currency (what got it US sanctions in the first place), and if we don't, they're going to start launching nuclear tipped missiles...

North Korea wastes no time in showing the true purpose behind nuclear program.... blackmail!

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well, it would appear that those who felt that North Korea was pursuing nuclear weapons to protect itself from a pre-emptive US strike were wrong. They want the US to allow it to continue to forge American currency (what got it US sanctions in the first place), and if we don't, they're going to start launching nuclear tipped missiles...

S'funny, my dyslexia must be getting worse. I read the article you posted even though it was from Fox.news, and couldn't see where it said anything of the sort. Just more bluster from the NK.

And I would really wait until we actually know what happened in that coal mine. It's not just the French, but now US officials noting that the blast was so small it may have been a failure or even a conventional explosive. Let's face it, their missile tests went really well.

Uncertainty.

A US official said it could take several days for intelligence analysts to determine whether the event in an area near North Korea's border with China was an unsuccessful nuclear test, a small nuclear device or a non-nuclear explosion.

It has been suggested that while the conventional explosives used to trigger a chain reaction detonated properly, there may have been no subsequent nuclear explosion.

Officials in Japan and South Korea reported no changes in radiation levels since Pyongyang's announcement.

(My emphasis).

[R'as al Ghul]

No offense Don, but wake me if some other news agency apart from FOX reports serious threats.
Reuters say:

HONG KONG (Reuters) - A day after North Korea said it tested a nuclear device and seismic sensors worldwide registered tremors consistent with a small test, the question remains: What exactly happened at that mountain site near the Chinese border?
Many scientists and most governments concerned have yet to definitively conclude whether it was a small nuclear device, a dud test of what might have been a much larger device or even a non-nuclear explosion.

So we can't even be sure it's nuclear? Yawn!!
And even if, they can't win anything by shooting one. Sure diplomacy will be more complicated but I seriously doubt any of us is threatened.
NK surely has strenghtened its position, if it's true, but nothing more, nothin less.

R'as

P.S.: Cross posted with Banquo....

[Banquo's Ghost]

Post removed because I caused unwitting offence. My apologies.

[Don Corleone]

Don't worry R'as, we're just proving that the Liberal Elite Borg Collective Treasonous Hive Mind has been activated to hunt down hapless conservatives.

Now when did I say any such thing? You're entitled to see things differently, and I don't remember prattling about a liberal elite, tratiorous liberals, but hey, if that's how the two of you want to misrepresent my arguments, fine.

Oh, one last thing, BG. Last I checked, the North Koreans demanding single-party talks with the US is North Korean code for "drop all sanctions against us". The sanctions got placed there in the first place due to North Korea's extensive US currency forgery schemes.

But hey, the two of you know more than anybody... there's no real threat in North Korea. It's all a big game, just like the two of you say.

[R'as al Ghul]

but hey, if that's how the two of you want to misrepresent my arguments, fine.

But hey, the two of you know more than anybody... there's no real threat in North Korea. It's all a big game, just like the two of you say.

I certainly didn't mean to misrepresent anything, Don and I'm quite sure it wasn't BG's intention, either.
I certainly don't know more than anybody who follows the news but we're all entitled to own opinion, aren't we?
What I'm saying is that we can't be certain what caused the seismic activities yet. Now some media agencies seem to jump to conclusion. Why is that? Does it increase sales numbers or viewer count when you report such things that instill fear? Certainly.
I find it sad that you jump at one of the first of these reports, you should know better.

Even if NK does have, let's say a dozen nukes that can reach LA, so what?
I mean, seriously, what do you expect to happen?
If they fire as much as a fart in any direction there are gonna be more than enough nukes from more than enough countries to bomb them into limbo.
(I hear the Russians would love to get rid of some nukes that are prone to contaminate their country side in a few years.)
My opinion is that the only goal of NK is to strenghten its diplomatic position.
There won't be a nuclear war in the near future if nobody overreacts but peacetalks are going to more interesting, to say the least.

I might add that I don't welcome the prospect of NK having Nuke missiles.

R'as

[Ser Clegane]

Actually I would be less concerned about NK directly using the nukes but rather about them further spreading the technology to

a) get cash
b) deliver a somewhat less open blow to its "enemies"

In the past NK has already shown that it does not exactly shun comitting/supporting acts of terrorism.
Of course there is the argument that if some terrorists use a kind of dirty mini-nuke, NK could be held responsible for it - but isn't the same argument altready used for Iran?
If you have aat least two possible culprits I highly doubt that we would see harsh relatiation that is often mentioned unless there is abolute 100% proof that points at source of the nuclear material

[Banquo's Ghost]

Now when did I say any such thing? You're entitled to see things differently, and I don't remember prattling about a liberal elite, tratiorous liberals, but hey, if that's how the two of you want to misrepresent my arguments, fine.

Oh, one last thing, BG. Last I checked, the North Koreans demanding single-party talks with the US is North Korean code for "drop all sanctions against us". The sanctions got placed there in the first place due to North Korea's extensive US currency forgery schemes.

But hey, the two of you know more than anybody... there's no real threat in North Korea. It's all a big game, just like the two of you say.

I should apologise Don. I was being flippant, in response to some posters' (not you, which is why my poor humour was misplaced) constant prattling that anyone who disagrees with the Bush administration is part of a liberal conspiracy. Sorry again.

I understood the idea that sanctions were imposed partly because the NK regime props itself up by forging dollars, but certainly not exclusively due to this. They are very naughty in a number of ways. Seeking to get sanctions lifted is not an unrealistic foreign policy aim for Kim and having people think he has the bomb makes it more likely that he will get a seat at the table. If he has, in fact, a set of damp firecrackers, no-one would be interested, and he would not get half the aid he does. Megalomaniacs get themselves into trouble over this - Saddam, against all logic, having got rid of all his WMD still postured that he might have some so he would be taken seriously. Got himself taken rather too seriously, as perhaps Kim may do.

It's certainly not a game, but if it were, it would be poker. Kim has a really weak hand, but is adept at convincing people he's got all the aces. My wider point is that people here are arguing for quite inconceivable levels of military action, developing conspiracy theories that everyone from the Chinese to the Martians are behind Kim's plans and that we all about to be murdered in our beds when in reality:

1. We don't know if the NK actually succeeded in testing a viable device.
2. They have no realistic delivery mechanism as yet.
3. They have been known to bluff us into mistakes before.

Just urging some caution on the extrapolations, that's all.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If anyone wants to think about more than paranoia, perhaps it would be wise to reflect, not on the 'Axis of Evil' but on the real danger in that part of the world - which is a key 'ally' of ours.

Not only is Pakistan supplying countries with covert nuclear technology and providing safe havens for the Taleban their Secret Service is practically a fully paid up member of al-Q'eda. If islamic terrorists get a bomb, I'm pretty sure it won't be from Kim Jung-il but will have been paid for by US aid to Pakistan.

[nokhor]

i think the u.s. has been conducting it's diplomacy the wrong way. n. korea won't listen to america. sanctions are meaningless when their only real trading partner is china, and a conventional war by the u.s. right now is out of the question and they know it. their only economic and ideological partner is china and that's where the u.s. should apply it's diplomacy. i think the reasons for the failure of chinese involvement up to the present time, is simply because the chinese don't care. so what if america throws a hissy fit over n. korea. as long as american troops aren't getting uncomfortably close to the chinese border, and as long as n. korea isn't undergoing a regime change from a communist to an ideologically more unfriendly political system, i don't think there is an incentive for the chinese to care. so we have to make them care.

the u.s. can't threaten china directly because a) they're both nuclear powers and b) are serious trading partners. but the u.s. can threaten china indirectly by promising that japan will have it's own nuclear weapons real soon. and that the chinese will have a hissy fit over because most of the senior chinese leadership lived during and suffered under the japanese occupation of the last century. as it is still a very big deal every year when the japanese PM visits the war shrine, how much more of a big deal will it be, when the world's second largest economy scraps its pacifistic constitution and develops nuclear weapons? so we can make the chinese have a vested interest in this. and all they have to do to prevent it is at the minimum 1) trade embargo of n. korea so that it implodes of its own accord or at the maximum 2) maintain neutrality in any kind of conflict between the world and n. korea with the understanding that at the resolution of the conflict, kim and his cronies will be removed, but the basic political system will remain unchanged and no foreign troops except for maybe chinese troops will stay in there after a short occupation.

[Don Corleone]

Well, you have a point R'as. The Washington Times (not Post) has an article this morning questioning the validity of the test. Not example a card-carrying ACLU endorsed member of the MSM conspiracy... Not such a big bang after all

Now, while I'll agree FoxNews has a pretty strident editorial policy you may not happen to agree with, R'as, I think it's a bit far fetched to accuse them of outright fabricating stories. I have little doubt an unnamed DPRK official did in fact make such a veiled threat. The real question is on their ability to deliver, a belief in which I'm becoming increasingly skeptical.

That being said, regardless of whether North Korea actually test detonated a nuclear device this past weekend, I think we can all agree it's only a matter of (fairly short) time until they possess the capability.

As for Pakistan, I don't know that you even need to look that far. Aren't Russia and some of the other former Soviet Republics missing large amounts of fissable material? Would we ever be able to pinpoint the source of the material for a nuclear bomb? It's not anthrax... there's no way to trace it's origin, right?

[drone]

As for Pakistan, I don't know that you even need to look that far. Aren't Russia and some of the other former Soviet Republics missing large amounts of fissable material? Would we ever be able to pinpoint the source of the material for a nuclear bomb? It's not anthrax... there's no way to trace it's origin, right?

My understanding is that material can be isolated by the trace elements present, which can then be used to determine which reactors and enrichment facilities the material came from. I won't post a link, I don't need my boss wondering why I'm searching Google for nuclear fallout fingerprinting.

[Banquo's Ghost]

As for Pakistan, I don't know that you even need to look that far. Aren't Russia and some of the other former Soviet Republics missing large amounts of fissable material? Would we ever be able to pinpoint the source of the material for a nuclear bomb? It's not anthrax... there's no way to trace it's origin, right?

Russia is certainly missing some. A while back several border soldiers were found dead with a serious lump of radioactive material (strontium, IIRC) in a carrier bag. At the official level though, any actual warheads are controlled. Fissile material alone does not a bomb make. Dirty bombs could be made with hospital waste, they don't need plutonium (which begs the question, if terrorists are so dangerous, why haven't they set off a simple dirty bomb in a city centre? No need for anything more than a bit of radioactive material and a fertiliser bomb in a car boot. Think of the panic).

In contrast, there are senior intelligence officials in Pakistan who are actively supporting al-Q'aeda and who could easily facilitate the transfer of actual materiel, if not warheads.

Yet we seem to be sanguine about Musharraf's ability (and desire) to curb these people, whilst panicking about North Korea and Iran.

[ChewieTobbacca]

i think the u.s. has been conducting it's diplomacy the wrong way. n. korea won't listen to america. sanctions are meaningless when their only real trading partner is china, and a conventional war by the u.s. right now is out of the question and they know it. their only economic and ideological partner is china and that's where the u.s. should apply it's diplomacy. i think the reasons for the failure of chinese involvement up to the present time, is simply because the chinese don't care. so what if america throws a hissy fit over n. korea. as long as american troops aren't getting uncomfortably close to the chinese border, and as long as n. korea isn't undergoing a regime change from a communist to an ideologically more unfriendly political system, i don't think there is an incentive for the chinese to care. so we have to make them care.

the u.s. can't threaten china directly because a) they're both nuclear powers and b) are serious trading partners. but the u.s. can threaten china indirectly by promising that japan will have it's own nuclear weapons real soon. and that the chinese will have a hissy fit over because most of the senior chinese leadership lived during and suffered under the japanese occupation of the last century. as it is still a very big deal every year when the japanese PM visits the war shrine, how much more of a big deal will it be, when the world's second largest economy scraps its pacifistic constitution and develops nuclear weapons? so we can make the chinese have a vested interest in this. and all they have to do to prevent it is at the minimum 1) trade embargo of n. korea so that it implodes of its own accord or at the maximum 2) maintain neutrality in any kind of conflict between the world and n. korea with the understanding that at the resolution of the conflict, kim and his cronies will be removed, but the basic political system will remain unchanged and no foreign troops except for maybe chinese troops will stay in there after a short occupation.

This is one move that could actually make sense. As a 3rd option, have China remove Kim himself if they so wanted to. I highly doubt that China has no connections within the DPRK that have people friendly to China that want to be in power themselves....

[Upxl]

[QUOTE=Keba]

Europe will never get involved. Individual countries may become involved, but most just won't risk it.QUOTE]

That’s true Europe wont get involved because Europe can’t get involved.
We don’t have a unified foreign policy because some idiots decided there should be a referendum about the constitution ,remember?

Unlike the US populace, the European isn't as easily motivated.

I would rephrase that in having a bit more pro human concerns and more analysis about our government’s measures.

My country's population objected to sending a unit to train soldiers in Afghanistan.

Yes and we can all see this is completely the same thing.

Most in Europe see no point in sending troops there, for the simple reason that it doesn't concern them, it is far away,

If you choose to say ludicrous things like this pls don’t generalize.
Most people here give a whole lot about foreign affairs.

[Keba]

A unified foreign policy doesn't need a Constitution. All it need is agreeance among the individual nations ... something you would be hard pressed to get even with the Constitution.

That Constitution is a joke, a good idea, but bad work on it. The people were right to reject it.

I would rephrase that in having a bit more pro human concerns and more analysis about our government’s measures.

I wouldn't say that. I mean that motivating Euros for any sort of war is difficult at best if it isn't of direct concern for them.

Yes and we can all see this is completely the same thing.

I merely used that to illustrate a point ... the population objects to sending a hundred policemen because they come under risk. Do you truly think those same people will send tens of thousands to certain death?

If you choose to say ludicrous things like this pls don’t generalize.
Most people here give a whole lot about foreign affairs.

Here at the .org (or do you mean Europe, hell, I'm from Europe and none of the people I've talked to care), people care. In general, from what I've heard, most simply don't care. They look on it as China's and America's problem, and that's about the extent of the care.

This is as far as I will detract this admittedly rather fascinating thread.

Just to add my two cents.

According to the Russian military, the supposedly detonated nuke, if it was, in fact a nuke, was a device between 5 and 15 kilotons ... the Hiroshima version had 12. With that, only the Russians confirm it to be greater than half a kiloton.

In other news, China has agreed to sanctions (or, at least, punitive measures), but opposes any sort of military action.

[MSB]

In the past NK has already shown that it does not exactly shun comitting/supporting acts of terrorism.

One other reason to stop them: NK could give the nukes to terrorists so that they can target the USA. However it could be worse: they could give them to Iran to target the USA and the UK! I can see the end of the world as we know it. For some reason the words "welcome to the planet Skaro" come to mind.

For those who don't know Skaro is the nuclear wasteland of a planet that is the home of the Daleks (evil mutants that think of nothing but extermination) in Doctor Who. I am not saying that this will happen, but it could if NK and Iran's nuclear programs go unchecked.

[Pannonian]

One other reason to stop them: NK could give the nukes to terrorists so that they can target the USA. However it could be worse: they could give them to Iran to target the USA and the UK! I can see the end of the world as we know it. For some reason the words "welcome to the planet Skaro" come to mind.

For those who don't know Skaro is the nuclear wasteland of a planet that is the home of the Daleks (evil mutants that think of nothing but extermination) in Doctor Who. I am not saying that this will happen, but it could if NK and Iran's nuclear programs go unchecked.

Wouldn't it be easier to get the stuff from the Pakistanis, many of whose military and scientists are closet Islamists themselves?

[Ice]

One other reason to stop them: NK could give the nukes to terrorists so that they can target the USA. However it could be worse: they could give them to Iran

Quite possible.

to target the USA and the UK! I can see the end of the world as we know it. For some reason the words "welcome to the planet Skaro" come to mind.

Not possible. Iran doesn't have the technology to fire a missile that would hit the UK or the US. If you mean detonating it inside our boarders, then I suppose that is possible.

[Silver Rusher]

Wouldn't that make it more likely for the U.S. to invade?

And have several major cities nuked?

[MSB]

If you mean detonating it inside our boarders, then I suppose that is possible.

Yes that is what I mean. It would be easy, however, to research the tech so that they could be able launch their missiles at us, and of course they could easily build themselves an airforce which has the capability to drop fusion bombs. These nuclear issues need solving now before the evil and extreme countries of the world develop the tech to send out nuclear missiles to the the west. At current these countries are no real threat (they don't have the tech to send out nuclear missiles), but if they are not stopped now then within two years they will be!

[Conqueror]

Why do you assume that these states' leaders have a death wish?