Explicit Writing Democrat Scandal

[Don Corleone]

No, Ser C, I don't think this story makes Webb a pedophile per se. I do think it makes me seriously question the values and the judgement of an author, regardless of his own desires, that would think this makes for good reading.

What's more, context is everything, and having read the passage in context, the father is a farmer, selling his rice at a agricultural collective. He blows his son in front of the buying agent, and proceeds to have a discussion about his rice harvest. Nobody bats an eye.

What does that say about the author's views? That in a normally funcitoning world, thinking adults wouldn't really bat an eye when a father publicly performs oral sex on his child?

Is this really the judgement we want to put into leadership in the Senate?

[macsen rufus]

Who are MSM, NAMBLA and GLADD -- I'm feeling a bit lost in all the acronyms (I think it's a wrong-side-of-the-Atlantic thing...)

[Devastatin Dave]

Wow, you're just slingin' the lemur's name all over the place. Here's what I've said on this issue, so's you can slander me correctly:



And most importantly:

There ya go, DevDave. If you're going to misrepresent me, please do so with accurate quotes.

Well, when the Lemur starts slinging the mud towards more than just republicans and conservatives, then the Dave will give the Lemur a break.

You and the Prince should start a club and call it the "Ministry of Selective Tolerance".
You should get a lot of members.

[Lemur]

MSM: Shorthand for Mainstream Media. Usually used a a pejorative by people who get their news from other sources (bloggers, talk radio, etc.) From Wikipedia: "The mass-media audience has been viewed by some commentators as forming a mass society with special characteristics, notably atomization or lack of social connections, which render it especially susceptible to the influence of modern mass-media techniques such as advertising and propaganda. It is also gaining popularity in the blogosphere when referring to the mainstream media (MSM)."

NAMBLA: North American Man-Boy Love Association. A small group of profoundly creepy men who postulate that they have a right and obligation to have sex with pre-pubescent boys. Wiki link.

GLAAD: Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. Very similar to the other anti-defamation groups out there. Wiki link.

[Ser Clegane]

What does that say about the author's views? That in a normally funcitoning world, thinking adults wouldn't really bat an eye when a father publicly performs oral sex on his child?

I do not know the book - I have only read the review at "Publishers Weekly" on amazon:

Webb's cultural and political portrayal of Vietnam 25 years after the war's end is delivered with such bold strokes and magical detail that it really doesn't matter that the plot itself is relegated to the backseat. This is a highly personal and empathetic look at today's Vietnam, a land of misery and inequity, yet one still vibrantly alive. The story follows the experiences of Brandon Condley, an ex-Marine whose job it is to find missing American soldiers, dead or alive. Condley is trying to track down Theodore Deville, an army grunt who not only deserted his unit in 1969 and killed a fellow serviceman, but then joined the ranks of the enemy. Condley is convinced Deville is still alive, operating somewhere in southeast Asia's underground economy. Webb introduces a rich cast of supporting characters as Condley pursues his quarry across Vietnam, Australia, the former Soviet Union and Thailand. Among the most delicately etched is Dzung, a former South Vietnamese officer now relegated, like thousands of others on the losing side, to a menial station in life, one that he and his family have no hope of escaping. Such characters, as well as the highly textured mood and atmosphere that Webb creates, tend to further eclipse the main narrative and shift the focus to the moral consequences and social fallout of the war. This detailed, lovingly drawn portrait of Vietnam reveals a sad, tortured country that has never recovered from the horrifying events of a quarter-century ago. Major print and radio advertising. (Sept. 4)Forecast: Webb (Fields of Fire) is no stranger to the bestseller lists; endorsements from heavy hitters like Sen. John McCain will help put him there once again.

Perhaps he wanted to show that it is not a functional world were a father performs oral sex on his son and nobody bats an eye?

[Lemur]

Well, when the Lemur starts slinging the mud towards more than just republicans and conservatives, then the Dave will give the Lemur a break.

You and the Prince should start a club and call it the "Ministry of Selective Tolerance".
You should get a lot of members.

Show me a genuine conservative, and I'll happily tolerate him. I don't see any in the GOP; all I see is big-government hypocrites with an expansive social agenda. I'm supposed to be nice about them?

I don't need for you to "give me a break," heaven forbid. As I stated clearly, I would prefer if your attacks on my beliefs, person and integrity were grounded in things I have actually expressed.

[edit]

If you want to take this further, we should probably move into PM to avoid excessive thread hijacking.

[Don Corleone]

Don't you think there's less dangerous ways to convey the moral fallout of a post-war society then offering up graphic descriptions of pedophilic incest?

[Goofball]

Honestly, I don't care how fictional it is. It's sick and demented. 'Creating' child pornography using Photoshop is still pornography and writing about fathers giving their young sons hummers is sick, twisted fantasy.

Perhaps it is, but the difference is that nobody got hurt when this guy put his words on a page; and the same can not be said of Foley. (Get it? What a clever pun. I'm very proud of that one!)

Honestly, I don't care how fictional it is. It's sick and demented. 'Creating' child pornography using Photoshop is still pornography and writing about fathers giving their young sons hummers is sick, twisted fantasy. I'll resist the popular theme of comparing this to the Foley case, as that had ramifications of abuse of power and sexual harrassment. This on the other hand is truly pedophilia, as at least Foley's pages were of the age of consent in most states.

C'mon Don, your really reaching there. If somebody writing about fictional man/boy sex is guilty of pedophilia, does that mean somebody writing about a serial killer is guilty of murder?

[Lemur]

C'mon Don, your really reaching there. If somebody writing about fictional man/boy sex is guilty of pedophilia, does that mean somebody writing about a serial killer is guilty of murder?

I think Don's sentence means that the depiction is truly pedophilia, not that fiction = reality.

[Goofball]

I think Don's sentence means that the depiction is truly pedophilia, not that fiction = reality.

You're right, I think. I posted that before reading the rest of the thread.

Sorry if I got you wrong, Don.

[Don Corleone]

The act described in the book is pedophilia. No, that doesn't make Webb a pedophile, Goof, but 'artistic license' doesn't change the fact that the author chose to describe a pedophilic sexual act in a positive, or at worst morally neutral light.

As for "where's the harm" (for you BG), pedophiles seek out examples in pornography and literature to titliate them, yes, but also to seek reassurance that their desires are healthy and natural. This author chose to give them just that. So pedophiles sit around reading his book thinking "gee, I didn't do anything all that bad. It's natural what I did to that boy last week, and I shouldn't worry about trying it again". Yeah, who gets hurt?

Edit: Thanks Lemur, yes Goofy and I forgot to mention, yes, truly clever pun. Well done.

[Devastatin Dave]

Perhaps it is, but the difference is that nobody got hurt when this guy put his words on a page; and the same can not be said of Foley. (Get it? What a clever pun. I'm very proud of that one!)
?

Reminds me of a joke or two...
"The Republicans finally got some good news over the weekend. The North Koreans set off a nuclear bomb. Thank God. It was so powerful it knocked the Mark Foley story right off the front page. And knocked him off the page he was on, too." --Jay Leno

"I have the latest in the big Washington sex scandal. ... CNN is reporting that former Congressman Mark Foley's instant messages were not only sexually inappropriate, but were also full of typos. In his own defense, Foley said, 'It's hard to type with one hand.'" --Conan O'Brien

"Now more pages came forward today saying this thing with Foley goes back 11 years. Rush Limbaugh said today, 'You see, another threat Clinton completely ignored.' He also said, 'This would have never happened if Al Gore didn't invent the Internet.'" --Bill Maher

"The big question now is what should be done with Mark Foley's seat in Congress. I say, spray it with Lysol, boil it, coat it with Bactine, and then maybe you can sit on it." --Jay Leno

[Devastatin Dave]

Anyone notice the serious lack of coverage of this in the media? No bias there, nope, not at all.

[Ronin]

Don't you think there's less dangerous ways to convey the moral fallout of a post-war society then offering up graphic descriptions of pedophilic incest?

one may think that be the author decided to use it....if one doesn´t like that...then don´t read it.....the truth is that the GOP is embarassed over the page scandal so they are trying to make the democrats look bad also...no need to own up to their own black sheep if they can shift the public´s attention.

and as for "dangerous"....no book is dangerous...people are...

[macsen rufus]

@ Lemur - thanks for the definitions, I'll have to continue on tomorrow's shift...

[Lemur]

...no book is dangerous...

Spoken like a man who has never read Crabs on the Rampage!

[edit]

Oh noes! Senator McCain is a pedophile too!

“James Webb’s new novel paints a portrait of a modern Vietnam charged with hopes for the future but haunted by the ghosts of its war-torn past. It captures well the lingering scars of the war, and exposes the tension between the dynamism of a new generation and the invisible bondage of an older generation for whom wartime allegiances, and animosities, are rendered no less vivid by the passage of time. A novel of revenge and redemption that tells us much about both where Vietnam is headed and where it has been.”
— Senator John McCain

[Prince of the Poodles]

Prince, btw, who are you to judge this man. If two homosexual guys, 16 years old, have sex, isn't that consenting? Are you discreminating against youths now? Strange how you can get all pissed when someone discusses your sexual orientation but yet you call someone that has a different preferance than yours, they're "sick". Judge not lest ye be judged.

I believe the person in the text was refered to as a "young son" and a "boy" which leads me to believe he was far younger than the age of consent in any civilized society.

So:

If two homosexual guys, 16 years old, have sex, isn't that consenting? Are you discreminating against youths now?

has little to do with the discussion, as the text did not describe such a situation.

[Major Robert Dump]

Maybe its not being covered because its not a story. It's a shallow attempt at Allen to get some of the oh-noes-harry-potter-is-teh-devil folks to come over to his side. Webb books were far from being a failure, so apparently some people thought they were good reading. The guy has an impressive resume, and he's practically GOP from reading some of his official stances.

I don't remember people accusing Ronald Reagan of being a homo because he played a Notre Dame player in one of his movies.

[Devastatin Dave]

I don't remember people accusing Ronald Reagan of being a homo because he played a Notre Dame player in one of his movies.

Are you kidding me!?!?! I'd agree with you if you said the Buckeyes, but not the Fighting Irish!!! Those boys in Ohio are total queens...

[Del Arroyo]

I think Ser C provided adequate information to invalidate any complaints about the passage in the book. If something is bizarre and sick and real, you should not be angry at the author who tells it, but at the people who do it.

Also, the attempt to portray him as a misogynist is laughable. Feminist critics tried to do the same thing with Hemingway in the 70s. I'm sorry, but I cannot take anyone seriously who objects to the portrayal of women as they are instead of how modern progressive thought would like them to be. Thousands of modern pulp writers do cave to the percieved pressure, peppering their books with "ideal" female characters that have no relation to reality.

[whyidie]

The act described in the book is pedophilia. No, that doesn't make Webb a pedophile, Goof, but 'artistic license' doesn't change the fact that the author chose to describe a pedophilic sexual act in a positive, or at worst morally neutral light.

The society he describes is morally neutral. Hopefully the readers in our world are not. Hence the scene that is designed to make us drop our monocles in our martinis.

Personally I think the scene he describes is over the top and unnecessary, but I feel this way about a lot of "popular" authors. Not so good.

You seem to run quite a circuit in your accusations:

As for "where's the harm" (for you BG), pedophiles seek out examples in pornography and literature to titliate them, yes, but also to seek reassurance that their desires are healthy and natural. This author chose to give them just that. So pedophiles sit around reading his book thinking "gee, I didn't do anything all that bad. It's natural what I did to that boy last week, and I shouldn't worry about trying it again". Yeah, who gets hurt?

What is a pedophile doing reading this book ? Was it marketed to pedophiles ? Is the rest of the book full of so many scenes that is on the NAMBLA top ten list ? My goodness man.

Just how dangerous is this book ? Should we allow it ? Make people register in a national database before buying it ? THINK OF THE CHILDRENS!!

And you're voting Libertarian ?

[Don Corleone]

Look, I'm all about letting consenting adults do whatever they think they might care to, as long as no innocents get harmed. But trust me, NAMBLA's chat rooms are probably abuzz with discussions about this book. Hell, they probably have a reading list of 'morally neutral' or 'acceptable' presentations of their crap.

Webb didn't break any laws, I'm not advocating tossing him in the klink. But is this really the sort of guy we want running the country? Come on Whydie, other than the D next to his name, what brings you to defend him still?

[Del Arroyo]

Come on Whydie, other than the D next to his name, what brings you to defend him still?

He needs no defense because he's done nothing wrong nor even questionable.

[whyidie]

Look, I'm all about letting consenting adults do whatever they think they might care to, as long as no innocents get harmed. But trust me, NAMBLA's chat rooms are probably abuzz with discussions about this book. Hell, they probably have a reading list of 'morally neutral' or 'acceptable' presentations of their crap.

Webb didn't break any laws, I'm not advocating tossing him in the klink. But is this really the sort of guy we want running the country? Come on Whydie, other than the D next to his name, what brings you to defend him still?

Honestly I don't even know the guys name, so its difficult to defend or crucify him. As I said before I think the paragraph in question is in poor taste and do question the need for it. I blame his (and other authors) attitude of literary lustony. Unrestrained literary whoring just for shock value. Again, not good.

But I do draw the line at it being the sole reason for voting against him or for even projecting the damage that the book could/does inflict. That is all. No support for the guys campaign.

[JimBob]

Webb didn't break any laws, I'm not advocating tossing him in the klink. But is this really the sort of guy we want running the country?

He wrote about an immoral act. Authors do it all the time, its part of fiction. Without conflict there is no story. There are books with rape, murder, torture in them. Are the authors of those books bad people. In the book does he say 'giving little boys hummers is a great idea'? From the sound of it he paints it as a bad thing, in a book about the moral hellhole life is after Vietnam.

Also, the attempt to portray him as a misogynist is laughable. Feminist critics tried to do the same thing with Hemingway in the 70s. I'm sorry, but I cannot take anyone seriously who objects to the portrayal of women as they are instead of how modern progressive thought would like them to be. Thousands of modern pulp writers do cave to the percieved pressure, peppering their books with "ideal" female characters that have no relation to reality.

Let's see:
1) Hemingway had 'strong women' in his stories. Hills Like White Elephants being one.
2) It's funny you mention Hemingway. Hemingway wrote about how he thought men should be. Not about how they actually are. Check his suicide on that one.
3) Dropping a label on half the human population seems rather dumb. I'm sure out of 3 billion people you're going to find all types. Did you get dumped recently or something?

[Del Arroyo]

2) It's funny you mention Hemingway.

It is funny that I should mention Hemingway. Perhaps I did so because it is relevant.

http://www.cas.usf.edu/english/walke.../hemwomen.html

"Ernest Hemingway has often been accused of misogyny in his treatment of female characters (and, perhaps, in his treatment of women in his own life). "It is not fashionable these days to praise the work of Ernest Hemingway," says Frederick Busch. "His women too often seem to be projections of male needfulness" (1). Many of his stories are seen as prototypical bildungsroman stories--stories, usually, of young men coming of age. There are few, if any, stories in the canon of women coming of age, however, and Hemingway is not the first to suffer the wrath of feminist critics. But is this wrath justified?"

Also, I am a bit perplexed as now you seem ready to roll the same label on over to me. What was it that I said? Can you point out any quote from my post which can rightly be interpreted as expressing a particularly negative view of women?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Of course it makes it perfectly alright. If you don't like Mr. Webb's brand of fiction, don't read it. No harm, no foul. In any case, both Senate candidates running in Virginia this election are totally repulsive to me.

Actually, I'm a pretty solid GOP voter and occasional contributor. Webb was correct about the Iraq aftermath and Allen was wrong. Webb's other positions are okay, but not exactly inspiring to this conservative. Allen has run a tawdry and repulsive campaign.

Result: I'd like both of them to lose and to leave the seat unfilled. I'll probably go with Allen in the end, as his party line votes support most of my larger agenda, but I'd like to go into a voting booth without needing noseplugs. Haven't since Reagan in 1984.

[drone]

Another wonderful episode in the Virginia Senate race:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...103100948.html

Democratic Activist Claims Abuse by Allen's Staffers

By Michael D. Shear and Tim Craig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, November 1, 2006; Page A08

A Democratic activist who verbally confronted U.S. Sen. George Allen at a campaign rally in Charlottesville yesterday was shoved, put into a headlock and thrown against a window by three men wearing Allen stickers, according to a widely disseminated video of the incident.

W. Michael Stark, who identified himself in an e-mail after the incident as a University of Virginia law student, yelled a question at Allen (R) about whether he had ever spit on his first wife, an unsubstantiated charge that has been circulating on liberal blogs on the Internet. Allen supporters hauled him away from the senator as television cameras rolled.

"I demand that Senator Allen fire the staffers who beat up a constituent attempting to use his constitutional right to petition his government," Stark wrote in an e-mail.

If this keeps up, I'm moving to a more respectable state, like Florida.

[Reverend Joe]

Okay, that's it.

VOTE FREAK POWER!
BECAUSE IT'S BETTER THAN DEMOCRAP OR REPUBLICAN'T.

[Major Robert Dump]

Anyone want to bet that this non-scandal wont get but the slightest write up in this weeks conservative rags? Anyone want to admit to jumping on the bandwagon, and having no idea about the popularity if Webbs books, the context of the quotes taken from them, or even knowing about Webbs credentials? Anyone? It's not even on Drudgereport anyone, it's now just a gasp of air from a dying campaign. That's okay, even I pop off and say stupid things sometimes.



Jim Webb, unusual democrat. Very much disliked the Deomcrats of the 70s. Hated Jane Fonda. Fought in Vietnam as a Marine Liuetenant and once shileded someone from an exploding grenade, earning himself some shrapnel in his head (its still there) and the Navy Cross. Got a Law Degree. Appointed Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Reagan Administration. Then became Secretary of the Navy. Liberalism of the 70s drove him from the Democrats. "Jimmy Carter made me a Republican" he once said. Also disdains Clinton, and would get pissed when clinton would salute a Marine. Refuses to shake hands with John Kerry, but supported him for President out of contempt for Bushs incompetencies in Iraq. Was right about Iraq, from dat one, where Allen was wrong. 6 months before bombs fell on Baghdad Webb described exactly what we would ( and now are) seeing in Iraq with the plan that was being touted at the time.

Had principled opposition to affirmative action and sexual integration of the military out of fear it would weaken the force, both of which he has backed down on. Defended the Navy during tailhook because it turned into a witch hunt. He's not pilitically correct. This the source of Allen launching ham headed quai-feminist attacks on Webb.

Webb's accomplishments should speak for themselves in regards to his abilities as a human being, even if you don't like his politics. Hmmm, take a scumbag who happens to be in your party because the guy running against him is an evil, evil conservative Democrat. That's right, reduce Webb's legacy to some uneasy fiction he wrote. And while your at it, visit the Mead Hall in the Guild Story forum and be sure and take everyone to account for the fiction they write there. K


BTW, I nominate Allen for the worst execution of a campaign this election season