Neverwinter Nights 2 released

[Xiahou]

Anyone here get it? I'd like to hear from some of the fans of the first game to get an idea of how the sequel stacks up.

[drone]

Was that today? Must have just missed it, I went into BestBuy today at lunchtime and scoped out the games, they only had the pre-order boxes out.

[Lemur]

My local shop says tomorrow. It shipped today.

[Xiahou]

Yup, both Amazon and EBGames list it as available now. I'm awfully tempted to snag it, but I've already got more games than time- and with the Wii coming out in a few weeks, I want to make sure its of the caliber of the first one before I shell out for it.

Edit: It's also available for download purchase from direct2drive- personally, I'd rather have the physical copy.

[Reenk Roink]

Going to get it in store tomorrow.

This is the game I've been waiting for...

[Somebody Else]

Now look what you've gone and made me do... I've only gone and ordered that too. Ah well, that's two games coming in the post in the next fortnight or so. No prizes for guessing what the other one is.

[Martok]

Oh goody. Another game I want to play, but my prehistoric computer won't run. Guess I'll have to keep pinching my pennies.... *sigh*

[Pindar]

I've never played Neverwinter Nights. I haven't played Oblivian either. What is the difference between the two? Do you who know prefer one over the other, if so why?

[Keba]

Neverwinter Nights is more like the old Balgur's Gate and Icewind Dale series, whereas Oblivion is ... uh, Elder Scrolls, there's no real comparison.

Oblivion is, essentially, complete freedom. Follow the story or not, your choice, it also tends to be more action oriented.

On the other hand, NWN is more limited, linear, one might say, but those parts tend to be more filled. Unlike Oblivion, the story drives the whole thing forward, opening up new areas, closing off others.

I had some dislike for the original NWN (this was later absolved by the modules) because the story had a lot of parallels (to other game stories) and cliches to it, but it nevertheless was a good game.

I dislike the whole one party member only system, but that seems to be gone. It was next to impossible to play a wizard. You need a fighter to guard you, but you also need a cleric to heal you, and, of course, a rogue is useful for opening doors and chests ... and you can only pick one.

I like both, but my loyalty is to NWN and the like over Oblivion. A more immersive plot that drives things forward. Oblivion has everything at the starting point (changing only a little), whereas the other actually alter the enviroment. That, and I can't help feeling that characters are better in NWN.

A good example is Oblivion's Siege of Kvatch. You pass by, a guy tells you the city was overrun last night. You play on for a few weeks in-game, and later nobody knows Kvatch is in trouble, despite it being barely a day's journey from the nearest city. You even get soldiers who run up and say they saw smoke from their patrol.

Whereas NWN and the like will put you in a city, then, when all hell breaks loose will replace the city set with a different one depicting the situation.

That said, the stores here are out-of-touch ... they still haven't gotten NWN 2.

[Xiahou]

I dislike the whole one party member only system, but that seems to be gone. It was next to impossible to play a wizard. You need a fighter to guard you, but you also need a cleric to heal you, and, of course, a rogue is useful for opening doors and chests ... and you can only pick one.:

Really? My favorite character for NWN1 was magic-user specialized in necromancy. The first few levels were challenging, but she was devastatingly powerful later on...

[Kekvit Irae]

A character specialized in necromancy (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus) can do some serious damage with spells like Wail of the Banshee. Gnomes make great illusionists because they already have Spell Focus: Illusion, freeing up a feat to spend on something like Toughness or armor proficiency feats for use with Still Spell.

Lone-wolf Wizards and Sorcerers have a better time in NWN than they do with a group in a real D&D game.
Out of spells? If you are playing D&D with a gaming group, you will have to sit out the entire session if resting is nowhere in sight (a constent annoyance in a Living Greyhawk game). If you are playing NWN, one hit of the R button and you are good to go again.
Traps and locks? In D&D, you'll need either ranks in the cross-class skills of Disable Device and Open Locks or get yourself a Rogue. In NWN, Find Traps disables all traps except the quest ones (read: Isle of the Maker) in a huge radius, and Knock does the same for all locks.
One hitpoint? In D&D, no amount of bandages will help you without resting without magical assistance. In NWN, use a healing kit and you are back to full instantly.
Multiple enemies? Isaac's Greater Missile Swarm and Greater Sanctuary.

[Keba]

Really? My favorite character for NWN1 was magic-user specialized in necromancy. The first few levels were challenging, but she was devastatingly powerful later on...

Oh, that doesn't mean I didn't play a mage, rogue or any class, really. I did, I just found it a lot less fun that it would have been with a party. That, and having only one person to converse with left out all the party banter that I came to love so much in Baldur's Gate 2.

Now, if only the damned shops here get this, finally. Last time it took them two months.

[Kekvit Irae]

Hordes of the Underdark gave you an extra companion for a total of three party members, and countless mods give you multiple companions. It's amusing to see the witless and witty conversations and rebukes between your henchmen, especially between Deekin and both Arabeths.

[Vladimir]

Really? My favorite character for NWN1 was magic-user specialized in necromancy. The first few levels were challenging, but she was devastatingly powerful later on...

I’ve found the most satisfying character to play a Rogue, Shadowdancer, Weaponmaster.

Starting off as a rogue is a bit tricky as you may need a henchman or do a lot of cheesy run away, and shoot type combat. This is countered by the fact that you get all the normal rogue goodies to include many skill points and the use magic item ability. The latter lets you cast spells from scrolls making you a de facto mage and later on allows you to use some nice equipment that you normally couldn’t use.

The Shadowdancer can be a bit like Cheesedancer; if the enemy doesn’t have True Seeing you can run away, hide in plain sight, and sneak around to backstab ad infinitum.

The Weaponmaster class allows you to emulate a fighter to give you massive weapon bonuses. A rapier is best for this class as you can use Weapon Finesse with it.

I hope I can create a similar character in NWN2 as it’s the best I’ve found for soloing. Of course, that is, after the price drops considerably. I was able to get NWN diamond for $20.

Oh yes...and this is coming from a former Paladin fanatic.

[frogbeastegg]

Any update on a patch? I'm waiting for one before I take the plunge. The Bioware forums are running at the speed of an arthritic asmatic snail in superglue, so checking there isn't proving terribly successful.

[econ21]

Any update on a patch?

There's been two already and a 1.03 beta is available, although I am not bothering with it now. I suspect it will be like NWN1 - almost continual patches, to incrementally add new stuff.

[frogbeastegg]

Anyone want to help a frog build a plan for her character? The UK manual is completely useless, a flimsy little pamphlet which tells you nothing about the character stats, classes, feats and whathaveyou. There's no link to a PDF manual in the NWN2 start menu folder either. I don't even know what classes and so on are in the game. Not impressed.

I want a character who is similar to one I built in Baldur's Gate 2 (kensai/sorcerer) or to the one I had in the original NWN (I can't remember what he was! Think shiny knight in armour with the ability to cast fireballs; he had little devil-like wings too for some reason), or even to my character in KotOR (jedi who fights with his lightsabre for most of the time but wades in and blasts with the force in tough battles).

I want a character who:
- Is human! I am not going to be some weird freak. I hate elves.
- Is of one of the good alignments.
- Uses a sword. Vital, this. A nice longsword or katana or something, not a silly rapier. Possibly paired with a shield, maybe, if he's not using a two-handed weapon.
- Has a good amount of HPs and will be able to survive quite easily.
- Perhaps wears nice shiny armour, like plate. However, if he's got enough protection without armour then I'll be happy without it as long as there's something I can make the character wear to look vaguely decent. I'm not wandering around looking like some farmer or generic NPC.
- Can fight respectably, handling most combat situations through the infinitely renewable free resource of Stabbing Things.
- Can break out some hefty magic in dire situations. By magic I mean big fireballs of doom, not all this turn undead rubbish. Buffing spells are acceptable as an additional line to damaging spells, as are enemy nerfing ones.
- Can do a bit of healing, perhaps.

I need to know everything - classes, starting stats, when to swap classes for best benefit, which skills, feats and traits are good and which should be avoided, etc - because the documentation has left me entirely blind, and because I only dabble with AD&D when there's a good PC game which uses it. The last I played with this specific system was a couple of years ago. I know it's very easy to hamstring your character by doing something simple, such as swapping classes one level to late. I want to start this character and go right through to the end of the game with him on my first go. No restarting because he's not good enough, or I made a mistake by picking skill X not skill Y.

Thanks.

[Kekvit Irae]

If you want just a sword monkey in heavy plate, I'd go with either a fighter or a paladin. The paladin can cast a few spells later on, and has access to Cure Disease, and immunity to fear and disease.

Unfortunately, you also want someone with lows of magic, and not the clerical kind either. So I'd take one level of paladin and then advance in sorcerer (both classes make extensive use of Charisma), so not only do you have a sword and armor, you can cast your spells you want. Unfortunately, not only are you one level behind pure sorcerers, you'll need the Still Spell metamagic feat to be able to cast in armor without your spells miscasting due to the arcane armor penalty. This means that a third level fireball will need to be prepared as a fourth level spell, increasing the level you have access to it from 5 (for third level spells) to 7 (for fourth level spells), AND you still have that paladin level tacked on so you will have to have a total of 8 class levels.

However, clerics are not the happy-happy heal-heal casters they were in Baldur's Gate and other games. Clerics in NWN can hold their own with spells, AND can cast them with no armor penalty (being divine, not arcane). Most of your first and second level spells will be buffs (which, because you are a cleric, can be converted to heal spells on the fly without praying for them), which is not a bad thing, actually. Grab yourself the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat so you can wield the big toys, grab the Strength Domain to buff yourself up in the heat of battle, and then take Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance as buff spells to make yourself more powerful than a fighter equal to your level. Once you hit a certain level, you will have access to excellent offensive spells such as flamestrike. If you want to use a sword and a shield, get Monkey Grip as a feat so you can wield that greatsword or greataxe in one hand and a shield in another (or, even better, two greatswords if you have the duel-wielding feats)

Being Human, you get a free feat automatically, so I suggest you put that into Luck Of Heros. Unlike the PnP version, LoH gives you not only +1 to all saves, but +1 to your armor class. Your second feat is negotiable, but I primarily take Dodge for an extra +1 armor class.

If you want to go cleric, you stats should look similar to this:

Str: 12 or above (for melee potential)
Dex: 13 (in full plate, the max dex bonus you can get is only +1, and you can get Dodge at 13 dex)
Con: 10 or above (again, for melee potential)
Int: 12 or above (clerics get lousy skill points, intelligence will help offset this)
Wis: 16 (you will be increasing this as you go along, so 16 is really all you need starting out)
Cha: 12 or above (for turn undead and diplomacy)

For skills, diplomacy and lore is a must. Being able to talk your way out of a fight, and being able to identify that uber magic item you just found are vital.
Healing is optional, but if you are going cleric, you have no need of this.
Two cross-class skills I definately would pick up are Use Magic Device (to wield all the magic items you cant use and cast from arcane scrolls like FIREBALL) and Tumble. Every five ranks in tumble you buy, you gain another +1 to your armor class.
Spellcraft is a good skill to have if you are mindful of enemy spellcasters. It will boost your saving throws against magic in the same way tumble boosts your armor class, every five ranks.

[econ21]

Pindar, I would summarise the differences between NWN and Oblivion as follows:

1) NWN follows the Dungeons and Dragons (DnD) rules pretty faithfully. These are the dominant RPG ruleset and so are pretty sound. Oblivion creates its own idiosyncratic rules, which have some nice features (use a skill more and it develops) but also some quirks (it pays to stand around getting hit, to build up your armour skill). DnD tends to induce you to specialise a character (a fighter-mage is a bad idea) whereas Oblivion shines in allowing you to mix and customise your skills. Personally, I think DnD is made for a party (4+ players) where every member can do their thing; but Oblivion is more suited to a soul protagonist (where one character must do everything).

2). Both games in single play mode revolve around a sole protagonist. In NWN, you have a henchman or two but they never really substitute for a proper party that you can control. In Oblivion, you are largely on your own.

3) NWN has a big multiplayer aspect - you can play online with others if you want and so recreate some of the social feel of pen and paper DnD. Oblivion is SP only.

4) Historically, I would say DnD tends more towards story telling, role playing proper and tactical combat whereas Oblivion is more in the action RPG genre. In NWN, whether you hit an enemy depends on your character's skill not your own; in Oblivion, there is more of a FPS feel where being good at clicking comes into play. Some of the distinction got blurred, as NWN lost most of the tactical combat (when it lost the DnD party) and Oblivion has improved on some of the story/character stuff from Morrowind.

5) The official campaign of NWN is rather bland and unchallenging. Where NWN shines is in the many mods that people create for whole new adventures. Some are absolutely stunning (the Shadowlands/Dreamcatcher series, for example) and rival any commercial CRPG. I get the feeling the Morrowind/Oblivion mods are more to customise the official campaign rather than tell a whole new story but maybe I am wrong.

6) Graphically, Oblivion is pretty drop dead gorgeous, whereas NWN is showing its age and never looked that good (perhaps because it was based around tilesets).

7). NWN has a very powerful editor which allows gamers to make all the great modules that are out. Oblvion/Morrowind shines more in the great world's already created for you - some people called Morrowind a great virtual world simulator rather than a great game and there is some truth to that.

I am hoping NWN2 will keep many of the virtues of NWN (the sound DnD system) but add more of the elements that made its predecessor, Baldur's Gate, so good. That is to say, better plot, characters and more of a party.

To conclude, I would guess that Oblivion appeals more to people who like action RPGs (Diablo?) whereas NWN appeals more to those who like more hardcore RPGs (Baldurs Gate?).

EDIT: Keba beat me to the punch - I largely agree with him. Off-topic: just noticed this is my number 5000 post; glad it is a fairly substantive one!

[Kekvit Irae]

Let's not forget the most important distinctions:
Oblivion is a first-person shooter RPG with an option to go into chase-cam mode.
NWN is a classic real-time third-person RPG with the option to pause and tactically think out your actions.

It's like comparing apples to bananas. They are both fruit, but totally different.

And congrats, econ, on your 5000GET

[Pindar]

Thank you Keba and econ21 for your very detailed replies: never having played either I really had no context to judge.