Who's your favorite minor power?

[Martok]

satchef1 put up a post that got me thinking about the smaller factions, and how they can be a fun challenge. You're surrounded by guys that are bigger and more powerful than you. You can't just sit there building up your one province, so you have to expand almost immediately. At the same time, however, you must choose carefully in where you expand, lest you bite off more than you can chew!

So out of curiosity, what's everyone's favorite small faction? Feel free to list factions made playable in the mods (XL, BKB, etc.).

For myself, I would have to say the Danes--gotta love those Viking units with their Longships. In the XL mod, I also like the Scots, Bohemians, and Portuguese.

[rvg]

Aragon. I usually grab the 5 provinces bordering on Aragon, then sit tight and play out my game. I let the Almos have the rest of Iberia, the French (or English) have anything north of Aquitagne, while I capture the mediterranean isles and Antioch. Distinctly different game from the Spanish, with all of the Spanish plusses (Iron, Lancers, etc) yet none of the druggery of Spanish GA game where you HAVE to conquer alot in order to get ahead.

On the flip side of this....I hate Sicilians.

[Kavhan Isbul]

In the vanilla MTW VI the Aragonese. The Danes were also fun, and probably even more challenging, but their huscarles I found a bit overpowered.

In XL, the Volga Bulgars were my favorite minor faction. I am obviously quite biased, but I loved them mainly for the challenge they presented (more than even the Bulgarians in high and late - too easy). They are surrounded by poor lands and plenty of enemies, have no easy see access, and then even if able to destroy the Cumans, Novgorods, Kievans and Lithuanians, they ran into a trong Byzantine or Fatimid Empire to the south and a strong Hungarian Kingdom to the west. The the Horde comes. And the best part was that unless they captured Bulagria and Wales, the Volga Bulgars were limited to vanilla archers for the entire game - no crossbows, now compund bows either. Makes one see the slav javelinmen in a very different light. Also, no swords/axes infantry after 1204 (except Urban Militia) - and to get it before that one needed to capture Kiev, Novgorod and Scandinavia, and it was still hard to afford due to building requirements, training costs and high upkeep.

The Serbs had an overpowered roster in XL, and the Portugese wer a bit boring, as they did not present anything new - they were too similar to the Spanish and Aragonese. The Bohemians were quite tough to play with - with them you soon find yourself in the shoes of the HRE, just unable to crusade and without Shwabian swordsmen. The Bohemian Archers were great (perhaps the best hybrid unit), but that was about all the advantage the Czechs got. Now I am thinking of reinstalling the XL mod to play with the Bohemians again... The Swedish and Armenians I also found quite hard to play with. The Hospitaliers in Late were fun, I enjoyed a campaign with them.

In BKB there were plenty of units for each faction, and since you could always field a perfect, balanced army of very strong units with any faction, I could not enjoy it as much as the XL mod.

The mod I currently play is the MedMod. It is by far the most challengeing regardless of which faction you play with. I was able to get the Pechenegs and Portugese to a good start. I was unable, so far, to do it with the Serbs. I am confident I can take on the Hungarians and beat them, even if gradually and with a lot of tough battles. However, the Byzantines always attack me at the back and even if I repulse them, the Sicilians simply come with hordes of superior heavy cavalry and finish me off. That goes for Early, in Late I have only played the Bulgarians and after a few unsuccessfull attempt, with a little luck I got them off to a nice start and won by Glorious Achievements.

Overall, if I have to choose one minor faction with which I have had most fun, it is the Volga Bulgars in XL, in Eary (High is simply impossible). They presented a great challenge, a unique army, and all the fun that comes from playing a Muslim faction - Jihads, Crusades, etc.

[drone]

The Danes definitely are in the best position for a small faction in Early. They border the HRE only, who tends to leave them alone (they have larger worries). They can take Sweden easily for the iron and farming benefits. With longboats, they will beat out the other northern/western factions in naval power, giving them both trade and mobility. And their units rock in Early, even if you don't tech up to huscarles.

[Martok]

Wow, Kavhan, you've really gotten around with the mods; I'm impressed. (I've still only played XL thus far.)

I agree it's a pity the Bohemians and Portuguese don't really get that many new units in XL, but I still love the challenge of playing them. (I've actually yet to succeed as the Bohemians; I always get ganged up on at the worst possible times! ) And the Portuguese are even harder than Aragon, as they don't have any rebel provinces into which they can expand. For them, they must go to war immediately--either with the powerful Almos to the south, or their Catholic brothers (Castille-Leon) to the east.

Dang. Just talking about those two factions makes me want to start another campaign as one of them now! I'm leaning towards the Portuguese, as it's been a good while since I last played them. That, and they can Crusade in XL.

[LegioScythia]

The Danes they have one of the best starting positions they also have pretty strong units in the Early era

[naut]

Bohemia, Scotland or Armenia.

[_Aetius_]

I've played as Sicily (Vanilla and XL), Aragon, Bohemia (XL) and the Danes. I've had success with them all, but the Danes and Sicilians have brilliant starting positions, the Sicilians especially. Money is always tight early on for small factions, but the Danes and Sicilians can make up for that very quickly, the Bohemians unfortunately struggle to get off their feet financially, whilst Aragon faces similar problems.

The thing is Bohemia has no trade, taking Pomerania and Prussia (very decent provinces) and holding them is hard work since you have to build these provinces up from near scratch which costs alot of money early on. Even then growth tends to be stunted as you have to spend big on your armies, more so than a normal faction of this size would, just to defend your territory and vast frontiers, nevermind expanding much. Aragons situation isnt as bad, tax revenue in Spain is always good, but trade can be a problem, silk can get you alot of money, however many provinces in Italy, southern France and Spain have silk already so you cannot trade with them effectively. Therefore you must expand your fleet further east, which is enormously costly. Conquering more than simply Valencia and Navarre will obviously provide you with more, but Spain is abit unpredictable, nobody knows who is going to dominate the peninsula and when England and France will involve themselves.

Sicilys position is excellent, an island in MTW is a fortress if you have a fleet, Sicily is also very very rich, southern Italy to provides steady income and a springboard for further expansion. The Danes in vanilla have a great time, Sweden and Norway are easily conquered, once a fleet can be developed (slowly due to cash) trade will grow, thankfully most factions seem to ignore the Danes. You also have a unique early unit roster that is invaluable to your starting progress. The only problem with the Danes is that they are like the Turks and HRE, prone to civil war at anytime, the larger you get the more likely civil war becomes in my experience. Every single time i've played as the Danes i've had a civil war just when my empire ihas expanded.

[macsen rufus]

In XL, I really liked playing Armenia. Bear In mind that in vanilla people get wary of playing as Turks because they are stuck between Byzantium and Egypt... well the Armenians are stuck between Byzantium, Egypt and Turks! Three neighbours, all of whom could crush you soon as look at you.

In the end I decided to go for the Egyptians first, took Antioch and built up from there whilst trying to keep the peace with the other two. Cash flow at the beginning is very poor so Antioch was a must. Orthodox means no Pope problems too (apart from the odd crusade passing through...)

The AP bonus of the Armenian infantry was really useful, as they had the ability to swamp and defeat kataphraktoi (Arm Inf come in handy 100-man units). Obviously you also get AHC.

Was a tough start, but soon ended up with very powerful armies and good generals

In PMTW I've really enjoyed the Crimean Khanate, with mostly horse-archer armies, until some cossack lands have been conquered, starting with just Levidia and Crimea. Again, the Ottomans are a major neighbour, and also the Russians of some flavour, both quite big.

Scots in PMTW and in XL also provide an interesting variant on the "British but not English" theme

[Jxrc]

I have played as Aragon, Denmark and Sicily.

The only one that is really challenging is Aragon. Once you've taken Navarre, Toulouse and Valencia you've got to garrison all provinces to avoid an attack by the Elmos, the HRE, England and Spain. Moreover your only trading provinces are difficult to develop cause with such garrisons it is difficult to spare any cash to build a fleet ... If you are very agressive and overextend without having built ships you can end up with the Italian on your doorstep ... Really a tough game and it does not get better in High or Late. Got so stuck once in my 4 spanih provinces that I sent a crusade to take Livonia, built one ship, cross to Sweden and Norway and started my own danish game without Viking and Huscarls.

Danes and sicilian are far easier because you do not need to defend against any faction early (Papacy north or HRE south will not attack you unless you leave the provinces defended by one unit of peasant). You can get an insane amount of cash without trouble and then chose whom you wanna hit (the superpower to reduce it or the crippled factions.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Inspired by thsi topic, yesterday night I was finally able to get the Serbs in medMod off to a good start. The key was to wait, instead of attacking as quickly as possible. I know the general rule is to rush with a small, one-province faction, but if you do it with the Serbs im MedMod you simply get crushed by the Hungarians and the Byzantines (and occasionally the Sicilians, if you live that long, meaning until the mid 1090s). So I spent the first decade in peace, built a silver mine and a port, then a warf and finally a single galley to guard me from the Sicilians, Venetians and Genoese, and by that time the Hungarians were in war with the HRE and the Byzantines in war with the Seljuks. It took me half a century and a bunch of humiliating defeats against Byzantines small armies with simply unbeatable katanks and variangians, until I was able to get a decent kingdom, comprising of Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Panonia (in MedMod Hunary is divided into Panonia and Transdanubia) and Wallachia, and my situation is still precarious. However, this feels realistic, as my expansion is only limited, slow and after every province I conquer it takes me almost a decade to secure it. Also, it was perhaps much more historically accurate for a small faction to be cautious about getting into wars with larger and more powerful neighbors, and expand only when presented with a great opportunity. It was nice to see that you can beat overwhelming odds with patience for once, and not necessarily rushing and relying on the AIs inaptness on the battlefield.

[Deus ret.]

However, the Byzantines always attack me at the back and even if I repulse them, the Sicilians simply come with hordes of superior heavy cavalry and finish me off.

The same happens when you play as the HRE. Sicily owns Provence in Early which borders Dauphine....which means that they'll attack you sooner or later, JUST like everyone else does, and they always bring tons of their Sicilan Feudal Knights, coupled with the occasional hero general. Argh! Really a nuisance to deal with. When I finally got a half-decent start for the faction I ended up to have to fortify Dauphine ASAP and upon the attack retreated to the keep, which was comparably well defendable. This situation and special MedMod circumstances have definitely rendered this campaign almost the hardest I ever played.

But since this is a thread about favourite small factions: Although I liked the Armenian campaign a lot I never earned some long-term success there. Strange since in my games the AI Armenia always smashes the Turks and establishes itself as a regional power in Eastern Asia Minor....until they get beaten by the Crusader States, that is.
The Hungarians in PMTW (High) were a great experience. One province to start with and an overwhelmingly large, rich and powerful foe at the gates (the Ottomans). It is possible to become decently powerful (well, through *many* crushing victories against numerically far superior armies) but you'll likely end up being sandwiched between the Ottomans, the Hapsburgs and later probably the Russians, which provides quite some fun even after the mid-game. Your units in Late are not really state-of-the-art either, so you better be quick in those 76 years before the western powers can tech up to Line Infantry!

[Kavhan Isbul]

The same happens when you play as the HRE. Sicily owns Provence in Early which borders Dauphine....which means that they'll attack you sooner or later, JUST like everyone else does, and they always bring tons of their Sicilan Feudal Knights, coupled with the occasional hero general. Argh! Really a nuisance to deal with. When I finally got a half-decent start for the faction I ended up to have to fortify Dauphine ASAP and upon the attack retreated to the keep, which was comparably well defendable. This situation and special MedMod circumstances have definitely rendered this campaign almost the hardest I ever played.

I tried the HRE, with no success. I attacked the Venetians in Verona, because it is easily defensible (river battles). I would have captured Venice itself, but I was attacked by the Sicilians, genoese, Polish and Hungarians simultaneously. I held out pretty well while my first Emperor was alive, but when his son inherited the throne with only three stars influence, and I had to get out of Poland (which I had taken) when the Hungarians and the Polish attacked at the same time, a civil war broke out, and I lost half the Empire, and then another one broke out and I simply gave up. The problem is that there are too many borders, too many enemies and even if you deal with one or two of them, you cannot completely destroy them as you have to defend yourself against the rest, and overall your enemies recover quicker than you. The Sicilian Feudal Knights are simply unstoppable, as is the italian light infantry. And having no fleet in the Mediterranean means the Sicilians wil be bringing tons of reinforcements. The Saharan cavalry is also very, very good, and when the Sicilians start ravaging in Africa, and bringing tons of nubian spearmen and saharan cavalry to support their knights, it is extremely hard to fight them even if they are your only enemy.

I should probably try Pike & Musket when I amd one with the MedMod - it sounds like a fun mod as well.

[Kralizec]

Hmm, probably Sicily in vanilla MTW. In XL it's definitely the Serbians.

[satchef1]

Im torn between Armenia (XL) and Navarre (BKB).

Armenia have the best units in the game, Armenian infantry are capable of beating ANY foot knights, they have good heavy cavalry capable of standing toe-to-toe with nearly all western nights, and (IIRC) with certain provences they get Turcopoles and Trebizond archers. They're only weakness is the rough start they get!

My Navarre campaign was brilliant! Really crazy, i allied with the Almoravids who became the biggest power (about 20 provences in northern africa, iberia and france).

At this point i had 2 provences (Navarre and Gasgony, which i nabbed off the Aragonese before they got destroyed), but after a while the number of spies i'd shoved into the Almoravid lands began to have an affect, they were fighting off rebels and civil wars left, right and center!

I took this chance to attack them, taking Aragon and Tolouse and starting a crusade to take Ile De France. The Novgorods took most of Iberia with the Egyptians grabbing Africa + the east coast of Iberia. Unfortunately for me, my crusade got to Aquitaine at the same time as the Novgorods and a rebelion so a 4 way battle for control of the provence ensues (2 small battles, me vs the novgorods and the rebels vs the almoravids). I won and ended up taking Aquitaine and Ile De France but was now at war with Novgorod, the new biggest power in Europe.

At this time Novgorod held the Steppes, Scandanavia and Iberia. They moved on Aragon and took it from me. Unfortunately my crusading force, a good 4,000 men, was stuck in Ile de France because The Danes took Anjou and Norse took Burgundy while my crusade was going on. I was left fighting the Novgorods with garasoning forces, i held them out of Navarre despite 5 attempts by them to take the provence. My luck was holding up, have a random guess what year it was!

The presence of the Golden Horde in the steppes changed everything! The Novgorods asked for a cease-fire, allowing me to rest and build up new armies. After a few years i attack the Danish provence of Anjou to get me access to my forces in Ile de France, then i crush The Danes and hit the British Isles. The game crashes, i load it up, it crashes again! I load up my Wales campaign (which also crashed) and look at the year. My copy wont go past 1251 for some reason

I ended with the whole of france + castile, leon, aragon, mercia, york and the orkneys. Now ive gotta go repair my install...

[Kralizec]

Armenia have the best units in the game, Armenian infantry are capable of beating ANY foot knights, they have good heavy cavalry capable of standing toe-to-toe with nearly all western nights, and (IIRC) with certain provences they get Turcopoles and Trebizond archers. They're only weakness is the rough start they get!

Armenian infantry are pretty neat vs. anything armoured, but like all axe/mace/polearm infantry they do badly against spearmen. Treating them as if they're Byzantine infantry could lead to disaster. You could vision them as beefed up militia sergeants, and they're pretty good

At this time Novgorod held the Steppes, Scandanavia and Iberia.

That's crazy

About BKB's Super Mod, my favourite faction would be Croatia.

[Vladimir]

Do a search for Vladimir <and> Armenia.

[r johnson]

In regular VI i'd have to say Danes, I've played some of my best campaigns (and theres not many) as the Danes.

XL Mod it'd be the Norwegians or the Portuguese.

I love the Norwegians because of the difficult starting position and the lack of money, so you have to be careful about what you build initially.

I enjoy the Portuguese because I (atleast) always get attacked by the Almohads so I have to use a bit of brain power to defeat numerically superior armies. Also the first time I played as Portugal I defeated a army of 700 with only 150 troops.

[Martok]

I love the Norwegians because of the difficult starting position and the lack of money, so you have to be careful about what you build initially

For some reason, I didn't find the Norwegians to be that difficult. I think perhaps because--for me, at least--their strategy was so simple and straightforward. I attacked and conquered the Swedes right away, and then a few years after than, I simultaneously invaded Denmark and Skania and destroyed the Danes in one fell swoop. Once Scandanavia is secure, you have plenty of options for expansion (HRE, Baltic states, Britain, etc.). The Norwegians don't even have to expand if you don't want them to--with Sweden under your control, you could just set up a trade network and pull down tons of florins.

All that said, they're still fun to play! I may be a bit biased in saying so, however, given that I'm of Norse descent.

[Togakure]

The Sicilians.

I take Naples, then build up a basic infrastructure, army, and a few ships for a short while. When the first pope is in his mid-fifties, I take Rome, then quickly, Tuscany and Venice, isolating him in the Papal States. If there's a castle there for him to retreat to, and he's got a significant number of troops left, I'll attack him and reduce him to near nothing, then retreat. I never eliminate him, but leave him weak and surrounded, like a Japanese emperor. The pope soon dies, lifting my excommunication.

I finish off the Italians on the mainland in Genoa and Milan too, hopefully before the Pope dies, leaving them poor and isolated on Corsica and Sardinia. If they start building an infrastructure for ships on these islands, I invade, cripple, and isolate them on one island, as I've done with the pope.

If the opportunity presents itself, I ally with the Hungarians and HRE. I avoid alliances that do not provide immediate benefit, and do not ally with the Byzantines because of our religious differences.

The only significant complication with this strategy is the initial Italian fleet. I have to build enough ships, and be somewhat lucky when I launch my attack against them. If I lose my ships, it slows things down considerably.

Rome has a very nice infrastructure (castle) from the get go. This speeds up the development of advanced units, particularly knights. With Venice and Sicily, I have the basis for excellent trade, complimented by Naples, Tuscany, and Genoa. With some luck, Italian sea power has been eliminated, and its infrastructures assimilated. The pope will never be a significant threat again, though I do have to maintain small, functional garrisons in Naples, Rome, and Tuscany in addition to my main defensive armies in Venice, Milan, and Genoa. +1 valor Genoese sailors and +1 valor Urban Militia (Tuscany) are cheap to train and maintain, and are useful to a degree in the Early Period (UM as garrison troops after the first few decades).

After unifying the Italian peninsula, excepting the Papal States, I send ships--and then fast crusades via these ships--to the Holy Lands, with Antioch being my first conquest (Glorious Achievement). My crusades originate from Malta, which produces +1 valor Knights Hospitaller. My influence increases with each crusader conquest, and my heirs' characteristics improve dramatically. Soon the Pope is more than happy to ally with me, despite my initial aggression.

As the game progresses, I secure the Middle East and Africa, crusading like crazy. Then I turn my attention to Spain, and move up into western Europe from the Iberian peninsula. I work my way East from there, and if things go well, secure total victory before the Mongol Invasion. I delay my attack against the Byzantines for as long as possible, as they are usually my primary trading partners. When I do take them on, I need to have enough territorial income and banked savings to cover the loss in trade income.

I balance conquest with the expansion of trade, the development of my infrastructure, and sea power. I never worry about excommunication, just making sure that I have the garrisons and governors in place to maintain order, and timing invasions against Catholic factions with the likely demise of the current pope. I can always kill him, in battle or by assassination, if he becomes a hindrance.

This strategy works well consistently--a methodical fast track to power, influence, and eventually, domination.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I agree with Martok with the Norwegians in XL. Not only it is relatively easy to destroy the Swedes before they develop, but every time I attack Sweden from Norway, the Swedes simply pack up and leave, abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere. I actually find the game tougher when playing with Sweden, than when playing with Norway.

[danfda]

I too found Norway easy. Fun, though.

My favorite small faction (XL) is probably Serbia, though I do enjoy Scotland. I've not tried the Bohemians, though I think I may give them a go here whilst I wait for Neverwinter Nights 2 and M2TW. In vanilla, my favorite is the Russians (though they really aren't small since there are so many rebel territories around).

I should try MedMod...

[Kralizec]

abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere.

While this doesn't happen very often to me, it's annoying indeed. It seems to happen regularily if you attack the Portugese as the Almohads.

[Martok]

Masamune, welcome to the Org. You're obviously not a newcomer to MTW, though, so perhaps my greeting may feel redundant to you(?). Either way, we're glad to have you here!

Yes, the Sicilians are in excellent position from which to expand, although I myself tend not to go with the "conquer everything" approach with them. I prefer to take a couple provinces along the Med (the Hungarians and/or Serbians are good targets), maybe send a few Crusades to the Holy Land and/or Egypt, and then establish a maritime trading empire that has no rival.

My only problem is, I hate the Sicilians so much when I'm another faction--as I'm sure you know, they're total bastards when controlled by the AI--that playing them feels a little like I've gone turncoat and betrayed all the other factions I've played.

abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere.

While this doesn't happen very often to me, it's annoying indeed. It seems to happen regularily if you attack the Portugese as the Almohads.

It happens more often in the XL mod, period--for some reason, the AI has a greater tendency to refuse to fight, even when defending its last province. I'm not sure why that is, although I can only guess that it's related to VikingHorde having changed some of the factions' AI behaviors.

Fortunately, that's the only complaint I really have with his mod (and it's a minor one, at that). Besides, it's not as if he could've rewritten the AI in any case--though if wishing made it so....

[satchef1]

I agree with Martok with the Norwegians in XL. Not only it is relatively easy to destroy the Swedes before they develop, but every time I attack Sweden from Norway, the Swedes simply pack up and leave, abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere. I actually find the game tougher when playing with Sweden, than when playing with Norway.

It seems to happen every time if you attack them on the first turn. I was expecting a good hard fight but they just pack up and run

Not tried a Sicily campaign yet, which is the best game to play them on? Ive got XL, BKB and MedMod installed but if theyre best in vanilla i'll put another copy on

[_Aetius_]

Ive always felt the Sicilians shouldnt go and conquer everything. I think they are suited (and its more realistic I feel) that they conquer bits of territory here and there. Like Serbia, Crete, Sardinia and Corsica, maybe Greece and some territory in the Levant.

Everytime i've played them i've done this approach, its far more enjoyable than simply conquering everything, it's also something Sicily is suited to IMO. I absorb the islands of Corsica and Sardinia to safeguard the west, perhaps Tunisia to secure the south, Balkan teritory and crusades to the holyland for the east.

[Scurvy]

VI - Scillians, Aragon, Sort of danes, but i don't really count them as a minor faction - its comparatively easy expansion compared to others.

XL - Volga Bulgars are great fun, i really enjoyed playing as the crusaders recently in high, and also the scots and irish are both difficult and fun.

[bamff]

I'd agree that as minor factions go, Sicily is good fun because the pots of florins that keep piling up all around you leave you with plenty of options as to how to proceed. There is always the danger that somewhere in the latter throes of the game you will abruptly run out of heirs, though....

Denmark is also fun (and probably significantly more challenging than Sicily).

I haven't tried any of the mods as yet - too busy just with VI at this stage.

[ColdPrecision]

My Favorite minor factions are Ireland; besides Wales there are no easy early pickings and due to the bad economy you have to go to war fast, they have an interresting rooster of units, and if you are a fan of throwing pointy things at armoured knights, this is the faction to go, Even on normal they are still a very dificult faction to get anywhere with them.

Then there is Bulgaria, This faction is always a challenge, from the east, the Byzanties, beat them and you will have to deal with the Seljuks / Egyptians, so expanding beyond Constantinoples is not an easy task. On the other end are the Cumans, and the Hungarians. I almost always find myself fighting on two fronts when playing the Bulgarians, no matter what strategy I adopt.

Last by not Least, is the papacy, small, lousy positioning, but the lordship tittles from the 2 provinces are interesting and make up for the disadvantages.

[Innocentius]

I'd say Sweden in XL (haven't played all factions in XL yet though). You're surrendered by either enemies or neutral super powers (or at least potential super powers). Last time I played (on Normal) I got attacked 5 times in five years. First by Norway, then by Denmark, then Norway, then Denmark and then finally Norway again (that time I managed to kill their king though, so they settled for a while).
Finland is the only easy picking, and without it I wouldn't have survived for long, as all my reinforcements came from Finland. However, once you get rid of Denmark (I did this by claiming Saxony from the rebels there and attacking them at two fronts) it's a quite balanced game.