Research on battle map - post test results here

[grinningman]

Maybe it's a good thing that it's so difficult to pull off a cavalry charge, otherwise everyone would be complaining about how broken they are

It seems that the only units that won't take heavy casualties from a knight charge are ones that 'can form a spear wall' - usually pike, voulge or halberd units. Some factions don't have access to any of those units (like the Moors, my favourite from MTW, the English and the Russians), so it will be trickier for them to deal with cavalry.

It would be nice if standard spearmen could stand up to a frontal cavalry charge a bit better. It would also be nice if the standard spearmen formation (tight with ~4 ranks) wasn't the worst formation for taking a cavalry charge.

[Bullethead]

Well, I've finally got M2TW so can test some of this myself....

Test
Me: 1 unit of Spanish Spear Militia:

• 76 men including general
• cannot form spear wall
• can form schiltrom
• has "bonus vs. cav".

vs.

AI: 1 unit of English Hobilars: 41 men including general

Using the flat grass map. Units appear directly facing each other.

AI hobilars always moved toward spears to attack them. Their procedure was to walk until about 100 yards away, then trot until about 50 yards away, and finally gallop the remaining distance. Apparently the AI uses the single right-click to charge :). After charging, the hobilars would stay in melee until they'd taken about 50% losses, at which point they'd withdraw about 100 yards, reform, and charge again.

I did various things with the spearmen:

1. Spears stand to receive charge in default starting formation.
On contact, the spears lose about 50% of their numbers and the hobilars about 25%. In the ensuing melee, the spears usually take minor losses and take out another 25% of the hobilars, which then rout.

2. Spears moving with flank to oncoming charge
The charge instantly destroys the spears, hobilars take minimal losses

3. Spears walking forward toward charge
This was caused by a single right-click on the hobilars, hoping the spears would charge the oncoming cav. Didn't work--they kept on walking. On contact, the spears lose about 50%, hobilars take no damage. In the melee, both sides take about equal numbers of losses until both are about 25% remaining. Eventually, the hobilars usually will withdraw, reform, and charge again, finishing off the spears, but very few hobilars will survive.

4. Spears charge the charging cav
The spears usually take about 75-80% losses on contact and route instantly, doing very little damage to the hobilars (about 10%).

5. Spears receive charge in shiltrom formation
Spears lose about 50% on contact, hobilars lose about 10%. The melee lasts until the hobilars are down to 50% left, by which time there are about 25% spearmen left. Then the hobilars withdraw, both sides reform, and the hobilars charge again, wiping out the spearmen with little or no loss.

6. Spears in 2-rank loose formation
The hobilars advance at a walk as usual toward the center of the spear line. However, when they get to the distance at which they usually start to trot, they instead come to a complete stop and stand there in a disordered blob for about 15 seconds. Then the hobilars reform into a square formation facing the spears at 100 yards range, and stand there forever without charging. So I eventually charged them with the spears, still in the loose 2-rank formation. The spears closed in to envelop the hobilars on both flanks, who just kept standing there while the spears moved in. In both the charge and the ensuing melee, a few more spearmen died than hobilars, but this meant that the hobilars were down to about 50% while the spearmen were still at 66%. The hobilars withdrew and both sides reformed, but the hobilars did so quicker and returned while the spearmen were still milling around. The spearmen were in 2 main blobs separated by the heap of corpses, and the hobilars ran mostly into the gap between them. Again, numerical losses were about equal, resulting in the hobilars routing when they reached 25% remaining, while the spearmen still had 50% remaining.

Observations

1. It seems much better for spearmen to be standing still than moving when the cav hits. That's realistic

2. The shiltrom, supposedly a special anti-cav formation, is actually worse for the spearmen than remaining in their default formation

3. Putting spearmen in a 2-rank loose formation makes them completely proof against charges by hobilars because the cav just stops instead of charging. Once stopped, the spears can charge and see off the cav with the lightest losses of any situation. This is a bug

[econ21]

Some nice tests by CaptainSolo showing that experience raises archers' kill rates:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...36&postcount=1

[Massi]

nice test

I have also noticed that the cav remained immobile after charging the flank of a loose formation of archers. It did not move anymore (seemingly it was not fighting either) despite my attempts to free it, and I got control of it again only when it got the charge of two enemy cavalries. After that it was, obviously, too late.

I think it is the same bug

[Kraxis]

Considerably skewed results of Peasants fighting Militia units and Sergeant Spearmen.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73378

Peasants are winning where they should get pasted. Can't determine why this is happening, but it really shouldn't be happening.

If it is like this with Peasants vs Militia, I don't even want to know what is going on higher up. I'm pretty certain that the stats provided to us tell less of a tale than they should really.

[Bullethead]

I did a few more tests with spearmen. This time I faced off French and Spanish spear militias with identical stats across the board--the only apparent difference was the color of their tunics. But just to be safe, I switched roles between the 2 sides; this made no difference in the outcomes. The results are pretty interesting...

1. Charging vs. Stationary
This test consisted of one unit standing still and the other charging it directly from the front, with both in their default formations. The very interesting thing about this test is that the stationary unit ALWAYS won, by a fairly substantial margin. Usually, the losing unit routed with about 25% troops remaining, and the victor had about 35-45% remaining. This was caused by the attackers taking significantly more casualties on the initial impact than the defenders and thus having a head start on reaching rout-level casualties, because casuaties in the ensuing melee were about equal.

This raises the question, what happened to the charge bonus? You'd think that on impact, with defense ratings being the same, the charging unit would do more damage thanks to a higher effective attack rating. But in fact the opposite occurs, although there's nothing that says the defenders get a bonus.

I'm beginning to think that, at least for spearmen, the "charge bonus" is somehow used against itself due to a bug. Maybe the "bonus vs. cavalry", too. Perhaps they're actually added to the defender's attack rating instead of the attacker's. But whatever the problem is, it's consistent across spearmen attacking ANYTHING, both in tests and in battles. If you want to destroy a spear unit, have it charge something, even the rear of an occupied unit, especially cavalry. Many spearmen drop dead on contact, even when they should have the advantage.

But maybe this is just me. Before we add this to the bug list, maybe one of you all will test this yourself :).

The Uselessness of the Schiltrom Formation
All I can say is, NEVER use this formation under ANY circumstances. The results are ALWAYS worse for the spearmen, whatever they're fighting, than if they'd been in their default formation (not to mention loose formation).

In this test, I had 1 unit of spearmen in the schiltrom formation and the other charged in its default formation. In contrast to the results above, in this case, the attacker ALWAYS won. Handily. The attackers would take very little damage on impact compared to charging a default formation, and would then just butcher the defenders. The exchange rate was usually around 2:1 or more in favor of the attackers in the ensuing melee. In addition, the defenders would stay and fight until down to just 2 or 3 men before routing, leaving about 50% of the victorious attackers. But this all happened very quickly, so that it takes less time for the schiltrom to be totally wiped out than it does for defenders in default formation to see off their attackers.

This result matches up with my test in the previous post where cav had much less trouble with the schiltrom than with the default formation of spears. I'm therefore convinced that this is a bug. The schiltrom formation, supposedly a special thing for enhancing defence, instead assures the quick destruction of the unit while inflicting fewer casualties on the attacker. But again, I'd like somebody else to duplicate my findings before adding this to the bug list.

From watching the combat up close, I think I know what the problem is. The spearmen in the schiltrom just stand there facing outboard, only attack enemies directly in front of them, and those on the inside don't move forward to fill gaps in the outer ring. The attacking unit is usually bunched on around 1/2 of the schiltrom circle, and the defenders on the far side don't move to help the engaged side. Because the attackers in contact with the defenders form a arc with a larger radius, there can be more attackers engaged than defenders, so more defenders die. When defenders die, gaps open in their outer layer, into which attackers move, further increasing their superiority in numbers engaged, plus hitting some defenders in the flank now. Once the attackers have eaten away their side of the schiltrom, they start hitting the other side's defenders in the back. Of these, only a few turn around to fight, while the rest keep facing nobody.

Anyway, I'll say it again. Don't EVER use the schiltrom!

[RomoR]

IAnyway, I'll say it again. Don't EVER use the schiltrom!

Yeah In all my tests Schiltrom was at the max, just equal to a normal tight formation, but mostly worst.

You know whats worst than Schiltrom, Wedge it's in a whole new league.
Use it if you really want to kill your general.

[Kraxis]

You do know that the Schiltrom is for refusing cavalry...

Try to use it against cavalry.

[Bullethead]

You do know that the Schiltrom is for refusing cavalry... Try to use it against cavalry.

I did, in my 1st series of tests with hobilars vs. spearmen. The results were completely consistent with my 2nd series of tests, when it was spear vs. spear. In both cases, the unit attacking the schiltrom takes much lower losses on initial contact than if it had hit spearmen in default formation, and then quickly butchers the schiltrom spearmen to a lower level of destruction than the same attacker would do to vs. a default spear formation. IOW, the schiltrom enhances spearman vulnerabilty, not defense, and it does so vs. both infantry and cav.

[Spendius]

Not related to Schiltron, but I tried to observe some of my units that were "fighting to death", only to see them standing there getting killed, not fighting at all. Anybody noticed the same behaviour ?

[Kraxis]

I haven't really had that many of those situations, but I do know that when they are fighting to the death they do not move. Each man fights for himself. Also they tend to be a good deal more lethargic in combat, so perhaps that was it?

[Martok]

I did, in my 1st series of tests with hobilars vs. spearmen. The results were completely consistent with my 2nd series of tests, when it was spear vs. spear. In both cases, the unit attacking the schiltrom takes much lower losses on initial contact than if it had hit spearmen in default formation, and then quickly butchers the schiltrom spearmen to a lower level of destruction than the same attacker would do to vs. a default spear formation. IOW, the schiltrom enhances spearman vulnerabilty, not defense, and it does so vs. both infantry and cav.

Well I didn't get much of chance to test it against infantry, but I can at least confirm that the schiltrom is useless against cavalry--I discovered this to my cost when assaulting a town.

[econ21]

It's not "research" but I found the schiltrom performed well to plug a bridge. I used stakes (backed by swordsmen) to funnell the exit to the bridge. To fill the gap on the road where you can't plant stakes, I placed 3 mercenary spearmen close together in schiltrom formation.

The Danes threw two near full stacks of good troops (mounted knights, dismounted FKs, those armoured pike-type militia etc) against that bridge and lost them all. By the end of the battle, I had lost only 2 spear units (had two spare).

Of course, the longbows helped. But still, I was impressed with the staying power of the schiltrom. They held up against both heavy cavalry and heavy infantry.

[Vladimir]

You do know that the Schiltrom is for refusing cavalry...

Try to use it against cavalry.

I don’t think people here understand the word refuse. If you refuse the flank you fall back slightly, at an angle to the line (hopefully), in order to refuse the enemy *your* flank. Refusing something doesn’t mean killing something, it means denying something. Of course any curved formation is going to be bad for spears. A Schiltron is an excellent defensive formation because it has no flank or rear. A caveat is that I’ve never *seen* the formation before, just read the descriptions here.

[Bullethead]

Of course any curved formation is going to be bad for spears. A Schiltron is an excellent defensive formation because it has no flank or rear. A caveat is that I’ve never *seen* the formation before, just read the descriptions here.

I think you've nailed part of the problem--there's a conflict between the general methods of M2TW's combat mechanics and the special needs of the schiltrom formation. the schiltrom obviously requires some special code to get the guys into the circle, but IMHO it also needs more special code to enable them to fight effectively in that circle.

In real life, the schiltrom was directly analogous to the Napoleanic square--an immobile, flankless porcupine for holding off the enemy, usually cavalry. Both worked because in real life horses would refuse to throw themsevles into all the pointy bits facing them. So the cav would stop and mill around the edges, reduced to slashing ineffectually with swords shorter than the spears they faced (for the schiltrom) or getting blown away by musketry from the inner ranks (the square). IOW, the protruding spears protected the schiltrom spearmen not only from the charge but from melee as well, but only if they stayed in their formation. Thus, they weren't going forward to poke the cav, and the cav wasn't able to approach within sword's reach, so that fights could go on indecisively for hours.

M2TW only partially models this. The schiltrom seems to do a fairly good job handling the charge part, with the cav stopping short and relatively few men on either side dying. But once the melee begins, the schiltrom is suicide. Instead of being kept at a distance, the cav is free to hack away at the spearmen, and because the spearmen are concerned only with maintaining their formation, the cav soon adds weight of numbers to its inherent stat advantages. And thus the schiltrom is quickly annihilated.

So, on the whole, the schiltrom has 2 of the 3 special code factors needed: it pretty well stops a charge, and the spearmen focus on staying in formation. However, the lack of the ability to stop melee attacks makes the schiltrom a death sentence for the spearmen unit. That, IMHO, needs to be fixed. Otherwise, the schiltrom is worse than useless.

It's interesting to compare the effects of the schiltrom vs. the spear wall (which I believe is a misnomer because "spear walls" can only be formed by pikemen, AFAIK). The "spear wall" does an excellent job of stopping both charges and melee attacks by cav. Horsemen remaining in front of the pikemen just stand there a hair's breadth from the points doing nothing but slowly side-stepping toward the pikemen's flank. When some cav do get around the flank and rear, pikemen there drop their pikes and use their swords, and do more than just hold their own against light cav. In fact, they do by far the most damage, because those in front keep the cav at a distance.

[Barry Fitzgerald]

I did some experiments with the schiltrom and the results were mixed.

I had an entire army of feudal knights v armoured sgt's....similar levels of experience..

In some ways if the attacking cavalry have a heavy charge...and can disrupt the formation..they can inflict big loses of 60% almost ...very quickly. The AI did this a few times...mostly with charges from 3/4 units....the force of the charge broke the formation..and the A Sgt's got mangled quickly.

If they don't impact heavy enough..the cavalry suffer heavy losses..and will likely lose..(that is if they are closely balanced)....single unit cav charges are a disaster.

But then you could question if a charge would occur anyway..aka the points about horses stopping short..sometimes they do.

In standard formation the A sgt's didnt seem so vulnerable to rear attack as I expected...fending off one unit with ease. Hence you have to question to what advatage at present is there with the shiltrom formation. Limited at best. I repeated the results with lower ranking units and of course they were less effective...

I also played with Billmen...the standard billmen is pretty bad against cavalry..even with high experience. I had an army of 1200 wiped out and a pathetic 29 enemy downed....I expected to inflict more casualties than that!

Heavy billmen do somewhat better..but no get a bonus for fighting cavalry. This is in complete contrast to the historical facts. Billmen were effective fighting cavalry..the reason being the bill itself is a spear...with an axe blade and hook...perfect for dismounting even well armoured knights...this was shown throughout its use in the english army..

I agree their defence rating is too low...a low armour rating is acceptable..as they were in general not heavily armoured...but they should get the cav bonus...suffer moderate casualties with a frontal charge..but inflict much more damage to an attackig cavalry unit than the do at present.

Billmen were good all rounders...and this currently isnt reflected in the game's performance of them. They are only stats wise refelcted as good attackers....though even this doenst follow through in the game.

[Kraxis]

Barry... Billmen are bugged currently, as are other twohanded axemen. They simply don't engage in melee with cavalry. They just stand there and take the punishment, which for Billmen is rather suicidal as their defensive strength is abysmal.

After the patch they should hopefully work... but until then, just don't use them agianst cavalry (seems doubly punishing ot the English).

[Barry Fitzgerald]

Well I pretty much got the bugged part...still would have expected at least some reasonable casualties on the cavs part just at the charge point!

29! I almost fell off my seat!

[Frantz]

My "studies" (lol) on crossbowmen shootouts and swords fighting

Tried ( 3 round each ) French crossbowmen against HRE PAvise crossbowmen
( always 91 men each )

1) the french ( AI ) went loose which alway negate the advantage of pavise ( if they remain tight ) ... the french were about 10 men under when the Human controlled HRE pavise crossbowmen but they win because it seems that the AI have always more rounds than you ... i will not count that so its 3 HRE slight victories (just because of the first volley ) .
Is a DRAW , the pavise is countered by getting a loose formation

2) i put the pavise also in Loose formation , that give a +20 kills for the pavise ... that always win ...

3) giving a 3 bronze experience to the french help NOTHING , experience seems have nothing to do with shooting and thats is really BAD ...should be modded or patched .... surely count in hand to hand but come on ....

4) with 3 gold experience MAYBE they have a slight advantage but they act very strange , they always try to get very close , they routed the pavise once getting very close too but two times they got heavy casualties
So a 3 gold unit can be countered by a zero experience unit while shooting

5) giving armour and weapons bonus dont help ... i can agree on that , the crossbow is so powerful that wont be stopped by an heavier plate ...

6) tryed Dismounted MAA vs Dismounted MAA
the lessons : the charging unit win always ...except if the defende go in loose mode ... even if some of you dont i will tend to agree on that , the loose formation negate the advantage of the charge and allow to surround the enemy unit compensating the first losses BTW go on loose is a tactical disadvantage on the field cos expose the unit to multiple contacts and the morale will suffer alot ...
Amour and weapon improvement HELP alot , the stand the charge ALOT better ... EXPERIENCE also help not enourmosly but a 3 bronze experience unit will always beat a zero experience unit with an advantage of 7-15 knight

[econ21]

A link to a thread by Reapz that includes battlemap tests:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73777

And a link to a thread with tests on gunpowder units by Whacker:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73599

Interesting tests by Altien showing Genovese crossbow militia owning most other missile troops:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73597

[Kraxis]

Regarding some rumours that the padded upgrade to units might in fact give them 4 points of armour (as per the findings in an unpacked file), I decided to test this out.

Sadly teh discussion was closed as people began to go off topic. So I can't it there, thus this is the secondbest place to do it.

"Ok, to see if the padded armour truly does give 4 points of armour I tested it out in custom.

Militia Pikemen (to get as many in a single unit as possible) against peasant archers (weakest possible missile to get the least chance of hurting the pikement too much) over 7 volleys (even the PA begins to edge closer around 7 volleys, which will spoil the test), over at least 5 rounds (did 8 with the bronze).

Here are the results.

After 7 volleys Peasant Archrs killed on average:

27,6 vanillla pikemen

23,1 bronze pikemen

18,4 silver pikemen (included silver to make certain that the difference from vanilla to bronze was larger)

The results speaks for themselves. We should have seen a considerably larger jump from vanilla to bronze, than bronze to silver (which is a single point if I'm not mistaken) if padding truly gave 4 points. However there is a larger jump from padding to light mail which shouldn't happen.

Two possible reasons for this in my mind.
Custom Battle uses the MP units. And perhaps there the upgrades are 1 point at a time to make sure it isn't too unbalanced with upgrades (though they only cost 30 a piece).
The other option is that there is no 4 point upgrade and what we see is a remnant from a time where there was."

Perhaps a stronger missile factor could be used to get more kills, and perhaps a stronger melee unit as well (Tercios perhaps). But I think these finds are enough for now.

[Reapz]

A comment and observations on battle-testing:

In this thread we have been discussing and analyzing the mehcanics of cavalry charges and that led me to do some battle-testing that I posted in this thread. I was surprised by the results not just in their implications for cavalry tactics (for which I would refer you to the threads) but for the implications on the value and accuracy of battle-testing in general.

Econ21 suggested I post a summary here also. I particularly wanted to share the observation that the results of custom battles to test unit combat vary greatly even if the conditions are identical, when you repeat the test.

Here as an example are ten results from the identical unit combat scenario:

Mailed Cavalry vs. Noble Pikemen, both experience zero, no armor or attack bonus
Flat grassy plain
AI managed the Pikemen
I activated the cavalry attack with a double right click one time on the target
Then let the units do their thing:

Survivors (Knights/Pikes) - Victory or Loss

0/32 - Loss
21/13 - Victory
19/0 - Victory
18/0 - Victory
1/21 - Loss
13/0 - Victory
12/0 - Victory
1/25 - Loss
1/39 - Loss
22/0 - Victory

Now the spread of results here is from a victory with almost 60% of the knights surviving to crushing defeat with no survivors and 60% of the Pikemen surviving. If you just did one test and relied on the single result you could arrive at wildly inaccurate conclusions.

I saw this spread with every custom battle scenario I repeated ten times - some losses, some wins - despite the conditions being absolutely identical

So I would suggest that people be very wary of single test results and go as far as to say I don't think you can generalize conclusions without doing a series of identical tests until a trend is clear. I am not a statistician but I can see from the results above that if ten people did the above test once each, four people would conclude that Pikemen slaughter charging knights, a couple would conclude knights win but at the cost of most of the unit and the rest would conclude it is a fairly safe bet for the Knights to come out with a win and about half the unit surviving.

caveat emptor

[FactionHeir]

Bullethead, try your scenario with spearmen walking away vs running away from the cav when it is about to or starts charging, as that changes them to pursue mode and then turn and attack the cav once they go melee onto your spears.

[Whacker]

And a link to a thread with tests on gunpowder units by Whacker:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73599

Per Mr. econ's suggestion, I'll post a few summary items as I see them here for this thread's purpose. Testing wasn't nearly completed as much as I'd wanted to, got sidetracked and eventually gave up, as I'd like to wait for the first patch to see if some of my major gripes are fixed and give the game a fair chance. Incidentally, most of my tests were actually done on horse archers, then we were intending to move onto gunpowder units. Here goes:

1. I firmly believe in reading other's posts and from my own experience that the new "blobbing" of units is probably to blame for a large number of our issues and gripes, in terms of charging, movement, pathing, cohesion, etc.

2. Experience in chevrons does indeed increase the kill rate. It does NOT appear to affect anything else, such as quicker unit response to commands or cohesion at all.

3. Distance from target does *seem* to affect accuracy, but in my tests it does not affect kill rate. The "trail of dead bodies" as enemy pikemen moved towards my HA's was rather uniform at all distances. Thus more or less arrows may hit at closer or longer distances respectively, but it doesn't seem to affect the kill speeds.

4. For HA's, block vs 2 row formation doesn't seem to affect kill rates. If there are penalties for firing in deep ranks, my testing doesn't show it.

5. Moving HA's around most definitely DOES impact killing rates. Stationary has the most accuracy and best killing speeds. Walking is second, and still elicits decent kill rates. Running is terrible, and you'll hardly kill anything. If you can keep your unit together that is. The "blobbing" effect while running is horrid and I found it almost impossible at times to keep my unit in a cohesive formation.

6. From the little testing I DID do on gunpowder units, it does seem that 2 row formation works best, as opposed to a block formation.

That's all I can think of for now!

[FactionHeir]

Yup, in experience, blobbing/collision AND automatic wait for all units in a group to get close before attacking (except when in pursuing-mode) is the root of all problems in M2TW.
Oh, and of course stopping because it "might" hit a stray unit from one of your own troops. In RTW they'd just run it over, which would make much more sense given that your archers can friendly fire too.

[Reapz]

Link to thread comparing longbow units vs. crossbowmen and demonstrating strong effects from unit experience on missile combat outcome.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74553

[Rothe]

To comment on the earlier testing of peasant bows against upgrade armored pikes, I would like to see a test that compares two units that have as many men, but the other has no armor and the other has padded armor. I think there are units in the game for the test.

My idea is that you'd have to also compare how much the padded armor protects compared to no armor, when you are actually sure that the padded armor is there (via unit type) as opposed to padded armor via upgrade.

It could be that padded armor does not protect that well even if you compare unarmored vs. padded in arrow fire.'

The previous test did show that the armor has significant effect on the survivability of the pikemen in any case, even if it is upgrade armor.

[Shahed]

Greetings

I've done this test, after getting curious about elephants from what I heard on the forum. I will do some more hopefully if I get time, but please if anyone else has time go right ahead and carry on the work. We're on the same team here.

Discussion thread is here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=73428&page=2

The reason for the test to find out simply what a good unit to kill them is and I suspect there are many units to kill them. As I almost always play Turks, I used Janissary Musketeers in this case, but I'm sure any Javelin armed unit would be fine too.

Point is if muskets kill these elephants they will kill any other elephants too.

Hope this helps.

Test against Timurid Elephant Artillery.

The results have convinced me I need go no further with this. I will however test vs Timurid Elephant Musketeers (or what's it they are called).

The limitations of these tests are:

1. Single unit type.
2. No other enemies to contend with on the field.
3. Terrain differences, although extremely minimal for gunpowder units.
4. Small sample size.
5. Ideal weather conditions enjoyed by both armies.
6. My somewhat skewed (by some standards) sense of humor.

The 2 test battles featured (drumroll!):

2 Janissary Musketeers
vs
1 Timurid Elephant Artillery

Test Conditions

• Palm Beach.
• (Gotta love the).... Sunset.
• Clear.
• Very Hard Difficulty.
• All units are experience 0.
• All units are armor upgrade 0.
• All units are weapons upgrade 0.
• Jannissaries deployed ranks 2 deep, loose formation, hold ground.
• Jannissaries fire on command, not auto fire.

THE RESULTS:

The enemy General is shot down!.


His troops are shot down!.


Some choose to retreat.


They are hunted down.
Primarily for the ivory (which is legal trade in this scenario).
Secondly for marksmanship training vs large slow moving objects.


Summary


Conclusion
Please keep in mind the limitations of this test. I believe it will be harder against the musket elephants. With that unit I believe it will be necessary to draw their fire to another unit, perhaps the General, or another cavalry or infantry unit/s so that the firearms are free to aim and fire without distraction. This is achievable though not by all and though not under any circumstance. With the right leadership under the right circumstance it is achievable by all.

In this case the elephants were annihilated with NO survivors for the loss of ONE Janissary casualty (which may be healed in campaign). This shows clearly that against this unit a simple duo of Janissary Musketeers can do the job very well, when they work as intended without bugs.

Point is if muskets kill these elephants they should theoretically kill any other elephants too.

Salute !!!

[R'as al Ghul]

I've made an interesting observation on shootouts between Peasant Archers and Pavise Xbow Militia. I would've thought that the Pavise would easily win because of their shield protection but when the Peasants shoot with fire arrows the pavise shields catch fire quite easily.
Perhaps someone would like to make some conclusive tests about it?

[RomoR]

Got the 1.1 patch and so decided to re-test the cavalry charges on melee units (mostly spears) here is an example of one of those series of tests:

conditions:
Unit Scale-Large
Map- grassy flats
Whether- clear
Me with 1 unit of militia spearmen
Ai with 1 unit of Hobilares
After choosing desired formation I press start and dont give any commands to my unit.

Results.

Spears in default tight formation guard mode off. lost all five rounds
Spears in default tight formation guard mode on. lost all five rounds
Spears in Schiltrom formation guard mode off. lost 4 round won 1
Spears in 7 rank tight formation guard mode off. lost 4 rounds won 1

Spears in 2 rank loose formation guard mode off. won all 5 rounds.

So it still appears that the best formation to be in for receiving a cavalry charge with melee or spear units (not pikes) is in a 2 rank loose formation, I'm not even going to talk about the fact that a more expensive spear unit looses against Hobilars! ho I did...

On I side note my Dismounted Portuguese Knights are still Pants/Broken

Edit: Unit Scale info