M2 HRE Test OOC Thread

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

I really do like the whole Feudalism idea, I just want to see if it can be acted out in MTW2. I think France and the HRE are the best to try and show this.

[Lucjan]

9 Living generals in the family tree mind you. Don't forget there are non-royal generals in M2, I would place the real number of living generals by turn 50 (according my own run through the hre) at 10-12.

Mind you though this all depends on how we play it. On turn 70 in my spanish campaign I have a general for every town (all of iberia, four towns in afrika, and toulouse) and 3 free roaming generals. So 16 in all, not to mention I've lost 2 kings already to natural deaths and 3 generals to battles.

So within a 70 turn time frame I've had 21 general avatars, and I play very, very picky with my avatars. So this number, for a less scrutinous player, could have been much higher.

[econ21]

Thanks, Lucjan, 16 generals sounds fine for a WotS type campaign.

Can you or anyone explain this non-Royal vs Royal distinction to me a little bit more? How do you get non-Royals? It might be important for me to understand this when starting a new PBM.

[Lucjan]

Royal generals are either born into the royal family or marry into the royal family by marrying a royal princess.

Non-royal generals are captains who have proven their worth and are appointed as "man of the hour" to general status or who have for whatever reason proven to be of significant worth to a royal family member and have been proposed as a candidate for adoption (adoptees are non-royal because of a lack of a real blood tie to the royal line). Non-royals can become part of the royal family by marrying a royal princess. But IIRC, non-royals cannot marry or have children unless they become part of the royal family.

[econ21]

OK, thanks, so I guess the main role-playing distinction for the PBM would be that non-royals shouldn't inherit their father's estate(s) and can't found dynasties. Sort of like the non-hereditary members of the House of Lords we have in the UK today.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

I would like to suggest something.

A duke/count/whatever can decide to make a "man of the hour" general his heir. Thus this heir will inherit his "fathers" land when the "father" dies.

[Wizzie]

Royal generals are either born into the royal family or marry into the royal family by marrying a royal princess.

Non-royal generals are captains who have proven their worth and are appointed as "man of the hour" to general status or who have for whatever reason proven to be of significant worth to a royal family member and have been proposed as a candidate for adoption (adoptees are non-royal because of a lack of a real blood tie to the royal line). Non-royals can become part of the royal family by marrying a royal princess. But IIRC, non-royals cannot marry or have children unless they become part of the royal family.

You're a bit off the mark concerning adoptees. Adoptees are placed in the family tree as a "child" of their sponsor. This can lead to some annoying consequences in-game, where you accept a candidate for adoption, only to find your heir has adopted him and he is in direct line for the throne (despite not being of the family). Or, in another case, your heir adopts him but already has a young son (not come of age). In this case, the adoptees avatar goes in place of the second son. But in the case that the current King dies, and the heir (i.e. the one that sponsored the adoption) becomes King before his natural son has come-of-age, the adoptee will become the heir to the throne. And since it is no longer possible to choose heirs in M2, you are stuck with him.

The only way I can see getting around it is the reject any offers for adoption, but that may be slightly draconian.

Also, the same is true of men-of-the-hour. They too are automatically added to your family tree under their sponsor, and can marry and procreate. In fact, the only avatars I have seen in M2TW where they are not in the actual family tree have been the free generals you start with in the campaign.

[Major Edit] Actually, upon rereading your post, I thought maybe when you said "Royal family" you meant the branch of the family tree containing the King and the heir? Rather than the entire family tree?

But in any case, an adoptee will still be a part of this "Royal Branch" as far as the game is concerned if he is adopted by the heir to the throne. And Medieval " has a slightly warped way of choosing heirs...

[econ21]

OK, I'm starting to dimly understand this. I don't mind too much about the Royal vs non-Royal distinction, nor the possible oddities Wizzie mentions. We can just live with them and role-play any surprise they engender. I think Lucjan was talking about the family tree in general, not just those under the King's line.

What I am more concerned about are "dead-end" generals who never appear on the family tree at all. Wizzie says they are not the adoptees, nor the men of the hour, but the "free" generals you get at the beginning.

Can anyone explain this to me - who are the "free generals"? Are they the offers you get for garrison commanders when you have a lot of settlements relative to generals? Lucjan suggests he has around 3 or so of those 50 turns in. They might just be a little disappointing to have as an avatar, as they don't get to procreate. (Although this also raises interesting roleplay possibilities - these are the men forever doomed to be of too low status to be accepted into nobility.)

[Lucjan]

Ok, revision to what I said as I didn't quite explain myself clearly and did, indeed, make a mistake. Here's a more in depth explanation of what I meant.

1 - Royals
Have the "Royal Ties" trait, are part of the royal family, exist in the entire family tree. Can inherit the throne. Can marry and have children, who all receive Royal Ties trait.

2 - Non Royals
Do not have the "Royal Ties" trait, are NOT part of the royal family. DO exist in the entire family tree. To my knowledge can not inherit the throne as they have no Royal Ties. Definately included Men-of-the-Hour and Garrison Commanders. To my knowledge, also includes Adoptees, unless those adoptees marry a princess to acquire the Royal Ties trait. All can apparently marry and have children regardless of whether they have the Royal Ties trait or not (guess I just never noticed this).

[Ituralde]

Not that I posses very deep knowledge of Medieval 2: Total War but having played some games I think I may be able to help here:

@econ21

Those 'free' generals are only available at the beginning of a game. I recently started playing with Hungary and they have a fellow named Istvan as their starting general. As long as the general is not offered for adoption he will eventually die and that will be it. As far as I know there is now way of getting them later in the game. All other generals gained by birth, adoption or Man of Honour will be incorporated in your family tree.

@Lucjan

My play experiences contradict your statements, I'm afraid. There really is no distinction between a royal blood line and a non-royal blood line. Every male member of your family tree as a whole is an eligible heir and can become king at some point, be he adopted or born to the family.
For a special variant refer to this thread of mine about my French succession:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75035

To my knowledge the Royal Ties trait is given to generals when they marry princesses. For example my Hungarian heir just gained the Royal Ties trait through marrying a Polish princess. Don't ask me about the logic behind that. He's even more loyal to me now.

Because of anomalies like that I think one should play with a slightly modified version of M2:TW as there is a certain limit to role-playing inconsistencies. A modified AI and a modified VnV file is a must!


I just started a new game as HRE to confirm my assertions and neither Prince Henry nor Leopold the sons of Emperor Heinrich have a Royal Ties trait or any other indication of being royal besides the fact that they appear in the family tree. The 3 'free' generals for the HRE are Otto von Kassel, Maximilian Mandorf and Dietrich von Saxony. Once they're dead you won't have any more 'free' generals.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[econ21]

Thanks for the advice, Ituralde.

The 3 'free' generals for the HRE are Otto von Kassel, Maximilian Mandorf and Dietrich von Saxony. Once they're dead you won't have any more 'free' generals.

So most of the starting generals can't found dynasties? That's a bit awkward, as they would be the natural Dukes - I was even thinking that all new settlements must go to them and then to "bonded" counts. Maybe it is moddable?

A modified AI and a modified VnV file is a must!

Any recommendations? I've heard about VnV fixes - what are you thinking of in terms of the AI?

This brings up a general point - what, if any, mods should we use?

I'm inclined to think:
(a) fix VnVs
(b) fix 2 handed weapons (& if I am doing that, I'd be inclined to give spears some kind of boost too)
(c) give last chancers 2 HP

Anything else?

I'm not inclined to change the turns to years ratio, although I realise I may be in a minority here.

[Lucjan]

They can form dynasties, you just need to marry them to a princess, and then they show up in the family tree.

[Ituralde]

They can also be adopted, especially if you fight a lot with them. The French start with three 'free' generals also and I managed to adopt two of them without trying very hard or marrying my princess to them.

Regarding the mods I'm all for them, but I haven't really tested any of them for myself. Maybe another one can share some experiences on that field.
Personally I would go for a 1 year per turn time scale similar to M:TW mixed with a mod that makes characters also age 1 year per turn. Don't know what other people think about it but the separate timescales in vanilla M2:TW really mess up role-playing for me.
I've seen a mini-mod that adjusts the game for a 1year per turn timescale adjusting population growth and build times, but as before I haven't tested it myself yet.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[Lucjan]

Using any mod at all prompts me to request, nay, suggest, well, no, more like demand that the following be done.

Working Links to all necessary mods be maintained in the library thread (if someone could be as kind as to keep one like TinCow did for wots) or the main post of every deliberations thread and be for a file sharing site other than rapidshare, as those of us without rapid share accounts or the willingness to pay for one were forced to wait multiple hours to download sections to a mod that we ended up having a very difficult time unzipping in the case of the wots.

My personal suggestion would be megaupload.com.

[econ21]

Good point about mods. Let's move all discussion over to the new OOC thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76931