Russia's new approach to dealing with "extremists"

[Aenlic]

You can process polonium in your own home with little detection.

What? OK, I'm not understanding this statement, I think. I'm hoping that statement was meant for amusement value, yes?

It isn't possible to process polonium in your home. It is a naturally occuring bi-product of the radioactive decay of uranium, but occurs in such small amounts from that natural decay that it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to separate from the original source, roughly 100 micrograms per metric ton. And that's 100 millionths of a gram. Visible in a microscope, perhaps. I don't know many people who have 1 metric ton of natural uranium in their homes. Even if someone had a couple hundred pounds of uranium, where would they get the high-speed centrifuge or gaseous diffusion apparatus to separate the various isotopes from the uranium? Even the suspicion that a country is trying to build such specialized equipment get them into trouble. Just ask Saddam about the aluminum tubes erroneously believed to be intended for his own centrifuge.

Polonium can be artificially produced by bombarding various heavy metals in a nuclear reactor or a cyclotron. This method produces about 100 grams of polonium worldwide per year. Again, not many people have nuclear reactors or cyclotrons in their homes.

Richard Garriott, a.k.a. Lord British of Ultima fame, owns some polonium 210 and might be the only private individual who can claim such. It's rather out of the way though. It's on the surface of the moon inside the Lunakhod rover which he purchased from the Russians at an auction.

[CrossLOPER]

What? OK, I'm not understanding this statement, I think. I'm hoping that statement was meant for amusement value, yes?....

No.


This lady managed to extract a trace amount from pitchblende using a crude laboratory setup in her home with her husband.

[Aenlic]

No.

First off, Curie didn't manage to separate out a sample of polonium. She observed that the result, after separating out the uranium chloride and radium chloride, was unstable and more radioactive and was thus able to calculate that the remainder consisted of bismuth and a previously unknown element which she named polonium. It's all about deduction knowing the properties of bismuth, which was a known element. She never actually separated an isolated sample of radium either, for which discovery she is more famous. She only managed to produce and isolate radium chloride.

Second, Curie didn't isolate isotopes. She was only able to identify the element itself. To identify the presence, or absence, of the polonium 210 isotope requires the use of alpha spectroscopy.

Third, Curie went through several tons of pitchblende to get the small sample she did find.

Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, Curie died of aplastic anemia due the extreme radiation exposure to which she subjected herself. So, even if someone had several tons of pitchblende, the proper identifying equipment to locate the most unstable of the polonium isotopes - 210 (such equipment did not exist at the time), and then the proper equipment to separate the polonium 210 from the polonium 209 (gaseous diffusion being one method), that lucky person would then be at severe risk of dying quickly like Litvinenko or slowly like Marie Curie. Bad idea.

[cegorach]

Hmm there is rather unexpected result of the entire affair

Polish restaurant at Sheffield called 'Polonium' is under the real siege of customers.
One comment said that some meals are clearly worth to 'die for'

Anyway it is quite ironic that Polonium the element named by Maria Curie-Sklodowska after Poland is used in the assassination most likely by the Russian agents...




BTW I am not sure how reliable it is, but I have read yesterday that the Georgians captured a Russian spy who said he was supposed to organise terrorist attacks in Southern Ossetia to blame Georgians for that.

I will see how it is played later, but if that case is real we are all in deep trouble since it is so similar to the bombing of the houses which started the 2nd Chechen War and started Putin's rise to power.

Of course it might be just a Georgian attempt to frame Russia into another disgusting affair, but mind that everyone who investigated the case of the attacks in Russia either disappeared or is not willing to answer any questions.

I believe if there is a chance that we really have abother case of Russian founded terror we cannot ignore it completely, it might prove there is something
really wrong on its way - if the Russian agents are behind this assasination and the new Georgian spy affair it means that we really should change our perception of the latest Russian foreign policy activities.

[KrooK]

LOl I don' understand your reaction guys.
This law is copied from US law when president can use Army whenever he want, to secure American businesses.

[cegorach]

It is not. The definition of the 'extremists' is not precise here and includes people who criticise the policy of Kremlin.

If it was directed only at the real terrorists there would be litle to worry about.

[CrossLOPER]

I distinctly remember a French study that proposed extraction with Cyanex, a variety of mixtures used to study radioactive substances. I believe the result was inconclusive. Regardless, whoever chose polonium clearly had access to either method or technology.

As for safety, I never mentioned that such a method would be safe, let alone efficient or easy.

[Aenlic]

I distinctly remember a French study that proposed extraction with Cyanex, a variety of mixtures used to study radioactive substances. I believe the result was inconclusive. Regardless, whoever chose polonium clearly had access to either method or technology.

As for safety, I never mentioned that such a method would be safe, let alone efficient or easy.

Agreed, CrossLOPER. I'm just being unnecessarily scrupulous in my definitions.

In any case, it is true that it need not be a government which produced the polonium 210. It's just that the most likely source was a government lab or a government controlled lab at some point. Also containing and delivering such a small amount that it wouldn't start self-heating (would have to be much less than a gram, I think) is pretty high-tech in itself.

I'm deeply interested in the results of the autopsy; but that won't be released until the investigation into Litvinenko's death is concluded. I suspect that the investigation won't ever be concluded, especially if the origin really is a program such as the one pointed out in original post in the this thread.

If, as I believe, the poison was introduced to Litvinenko via inhalation rather than ingenstion, then that would explain how Scaramella and Litvinenko's wife exhibit low levels of polonium 210. If there was a large enough source in Litvinenko's lungs, then the vaporization caused by spalling would have allowed miniscule amounts to be exhaled by him. Thus close associates, his wife and Scaramella, who were in sitting scross from him at some point as he exhaled would then be at risk for also inhaling extremely small amount. I can't think of any other explanation, since Scaramella didn't eat a meal when Litvinenko did, and his wife was no where near. The fact that both were also exposed, and polonium in their systems can only get there via ingestion or inhalation, certainly lowers the available vectors.

And that's a very interesting story, as well, Cegorach. The implications are not good. If dissent with Putin, of any kind, is deemed to carry a covert death sentence, then that alone will dampen dissent even if it's not true. It's a scary thought.

[CrossLOPER]

*poof*

EDIT: Screw it. Do your own research and go read some old articles... I don't need to dirty or protect the name of anyone. They'll do it well themselves!

Haha!

Note: Aenlic, this was not directed at you.

[Adrian II]

Time for the next instalment, gentlemen. I believe the gloves are coming off in Whitehall.

The Russian intelligence services, the prime suspects behind the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, have a network of more than 30 spies operating in Britain, it can be revealed. The sophisticated ring represents the greatest espionage threat facing Britain, Whitehall sources told The Sunday Telegraph.

(..)

Whitehall sources claim that the agents are as active today as they were at the height of the Cold War, despite the fact that the Kremlin is now one of Britain's major allies in the war on terrorism.

The startling intelligence was presented last week to Cabinet ministers at a Cobra meeting, where they are briefed on issues of national security. They were also told that Mr Litvinenko, a former KGB agent, who died 10 days ago, was "most probably" murdered by "state sponsored" assassins, with the radioactive poison polonium 210 and that suspicion centred firmly on Moscow.

A source said: "The Russian intelligence services are highly bureaucratic and legalistic. There isn't a great deal of room for personal initiative, everything has to be officially authorised and signed off. And this murder would have been a highly complex operation involving many people not one or two acting in isolation."

The Telegraph

[AntiochusIII]

I wonder how Great Britain would react to such a revelation...

In a world of realpolitik, you gotta admit that some spies are just going be there and someone are just going to die for it. However, if Britain does not respond harshly enough against these assassins the legal implications that the precedent would set would be quite disastrous.

In any case, Putin's no Westerner to go all buddies with.

[Aenlic]

I remember thinking initially that it was interesting that a former KGB operative had become president rather than the usual bureaucrats, even the KGB bureaucrats like Andropov during the USSR era. But it's becoming increasingly clear that Putin is far more interesting than I thought, and not in a good way. One of Putin's first jobs at the KGB was suppressing dissidents in Leningrad. He apparently hasn't strayed too far from that initial training.

[Pannonian]

I wonder how Great Britain would react to such a revelation...

In a world of realpolitik, you gotta admit that some spies are just going be there and someone are just going to die for it. However, if Britain does not respond harshly enough against these assassins the legal implications that the precedent would set would be quite disastrous.

In any case, Putin's no Westerner to go all buddies with.

Round them all up and dump them into the North Sea from a height of 1000 feet, having first pulled out our own agents from Russia. Then renegotiate our mission with Moscow, restarting from scratch.

Espionage is a cruel game, but the Russians should at least make sure their methods don't spill over into the civilian population, as the use of radioactive substances seems to do. I couldn't have cared less if they'd just knifed or shot Litvinenko, or made a similarly clean kill.

[KrooK]

Cegorach - it is.
American law allows them even on more than this law. They can not attack just extremists, but everyone whom businesses might be dangerous for USA.
For example their oil or food will be better.

[Adrian II]

I couldn't have cared less if they'd just knifed or shot Litvinenko, or made a similarly clean kill.

Well, I would care. If this is Russian state terrorism we have a major problem on our hands.

Imagine the outcry if Teheran started killing its dissidents in the West in such a high-profile manner. The casus belli would be build within weeks. In the case of Russia, what do we do?

The Telegraph story is ambiguous, though. It could be that the version they were given by 'Whitehall sources' truly represents the consensus at Whitehall. But the 'leak' could also be an attempt to pressure the Russians into cooperating more with Britsh security services, lest Whitehall is forced to conclude that this was Russian state terrorism.

[Pannonian]

Well, I would care. If this is Russian state terrorism we have a major problem on our hands.

Litvinenko was a turned spy. Historically they didn't have much of a life expectancy if their former masters ever got into contact with them again, hence they are supposed to keep a low profile. If they strut their stuff in public, they deserve all they get.

Imagine the outcry if Teheran started killing its dissidents in the West in such a high-profile manner. The casus belli would be build within weeks. In the case of Russia, what do we do?

If Russia starts killing Russian dissidents in the UK who were not formerly employed by their secret services, it would be outrageous. But IMHO spies can kill each other as much as they want, as long as they don't let it spill over into the general populace. Withdraw all our spies and diplomats from Russia, capture all of their network we can get our hands on, then kill them (my personal preference is to chuck them in the sea). Then make the point to Moscow, via the UN if necessary, that we'll tolerate the spying game, but they'd better use cleaner methods next time, and reestablish relations.

[CrossLOPER]

Litvinenko was a turned spy. Historically they didn't have much of a life expectancy...

It seems that you are one of the few people who understand the situation in this aspect. I believe it should be added now that Litvinenko did more than just say nasty things about Putin. He also revealed the names of twenty Russian security agents to several governments and collaborated with politicians (corrupt ones that stole much money from the government in the final days of the USSR) who want to replace Putin. In reality, I think he could have cared less.

Basically, he did a little too much. It is possible he was set up by his former "employers".

[drone]

Edited-> not enough caffiene yet.

+1

[Scurvy]

It seems that you are one of the few people who understand the situation in this aspect. I believe it should be added now that Litvinenko did more than just say nasty things about Putin. He also revealed the names of twenty Russian security agents to several governments and collaborated with politicians (corrupt ones that stole much money from the government in the final days of the USSR) who want to replace Putin.
Basically, he did a little too much. It is possible he was set up by his former "employers".

Its not his death that worries me (a double agent probably knows the risk) its the fact that it was in the uk, therefore possibly putting people in the uk who have nothing to do with it in danger, --> if there is a link found connecting it to putin + his government then the UK should make it very clear to russia that it is'nt acceptable, however its not yet been proved that there was a connection - he's supposed to have had many enemies, no action should be taken until it is proven.

[Aenlic]

Litvinenko was a turned spy. Historically they didn't have much of a life expectancy if their former masters ever got into contact with them again, hence they are supposed to keep a low profile. If they strut their stuff in public, they deserve all they get.


If Russia starts killing Russian dissidents in the UK who were not formerly employed by their secret services, it would be outrageous. But IMHO spies can kill each other as much as they want, as long as they don't let it spill over into the general populace. Withdraw all our spies and diplomats from Russia, capture all of their network we can get our hands on, then kill them (my personal preference is to chuck them in the sea). Then make the point to Moscow, via the UN if necessary, that we'll tolerate the spying game, but they'd better use cleaner methods next time, and reestablish relations.

That's an interesting point, Pannonian. Litvinenko may very well have lived on the edge and known it. But the problem with this idea is that Scaramella met with Litvinenko to advise him that he was on a hit list with Scaramella. According to Scaramella, that hit list was created by the same group which murdered Anna Politkovskaya, the Russian investigative journalist, who was also a friend of Litvinenko's. If that is the case, and the people about whom Scaramella was concerned were the ones who actually killed Litvinenko were the same ones who murdered Politkovskaya and this group has official ties, then the Russian government is already killing dissidents at home who aren't ex-intelligence. It isn't much of a leap for them to do so out of the country, if they're willing to kill an ex-intelligence agent out of the country too.

Also, Scaramella told the Italian RAI TG1 television news that doctors had told him that he had 5 times the dose which is considered deadly. He may very well be a walking dead man. If that is the case, then whomever murdered Litvinenko may very well have also murdered Scaramella. He isn't an ex-intelliggence officer either.

Just some thoughts.

[CrossLOPER]

that hit list was created by the same group which murdered Anna Politkovskaya, the Russian investigative journalist

Oh yeah she DEFINITELY narrows the list down...

If any of you bothered to read her articles, you'd know that she wrote more than "Putin is a very very very bad man."* She also wrote about how Russia is all evil and that Chechens pretty much have every right to murder Russians. Granted that the war is not clean, but justifying atrocities such as Beslan is unacceptable. Also, her background did not help her much to begin with.

*Once again, I personally believe she could not care less about Putin, but she was probably willing to be paid by someone to spout out garbage.\

I'm just trying to get you people to realize the possibility that these people are being tacked for more than just criticizing Putin. That, or maybe someone's just screwing around in some serious business.

Personally, I wish this situation would start to wind down already.

[Aenlic]

Oh, I agree that it's more than just criticizing Putin, CrossLOPER.

I don't think it's going to wind down any time soon. In fact, I expect it's going to heat up, especially when Scaramella dies which is likely considering his dose.

There have already been links to Yukos, and that makes it something much more than just assassinating outspoken fringe conspiracy theorists.

Roman Tsepov was somehow poisoned in 2004, and his death bears many similarities to Litvinenko. Doctors at the time believed that he had been poisoned with some kind of heavy metal or leukemia drug. But it could very well have been polonium-210 which is indeed a heavy metal, and would have needed the suspicion that it was radiation poisoning to detect. Had Litvinenko's samples not been sent to the AWE, then they wouldn't have known it was polonium-210 either.

Many of the suspicious poisonings over the last few years might have involved radioactive materials. They have all gone unsolved, even the dioxin poisoning of Viktor Yuschenko in thhe Ukraine. In fact, Politskovskaya was believed to have been poisoned during her coverage of Beslan but she recovered, and Yuri Shchekochikhin's death in 2003 because of a "severe allergic reaction" might also be questioned in light of these newer cases.

Also, it appears that various news sources like the Sunday Times are reporting that the Home Office has confirmed that the UK Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) has linked the polonium-210 to a particular Russian nuclear power plant. As someone said earlier in the thread, it is possible to determine the original source of a sample of such a highly rare isotope.

[CrossLOPER]

Not to be disrespectful, but you seriously need to get that eye tick checked out.

[Aenlic]

It was a fly. Comes from surfing the internet at high speed without goggles. Ack there's another one.

[CrossLOPER]

...Ack there's another one.

Careful, I some guy might think that you're calling him over.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Oh yeah she DEFINITELY narrows the list down...

If any of you bothered to read her articles, you'd know that she wrote more than "Putin is a very very very bad man."* She also wrote about how Russia is all evil and that Chechens pretty much have every right to murder Russians. Granted that the war is not clean, but justifying atrocities such as Beslan is unacceptable. Also, her background did not help her much to begin with.

Nonsense. I have read her articles and books, and you are repeating official propaganda here.

To those with open minds: I would recommend Politskovskaya's work to anyone seeking an insight into Russia, most especially the atrocities being committed daily in Chechnya and the effect this has on returning Russian soldiers. For the undecided, most of her investigations have been supported by research conducted by the EU Court of Human Rights and Amnesty International.

Personally, I wish this situation would start to wind down already.

Of course you do. Justice is best done in modern Russia by ignoring murder and government activity, not by finding the truth.

[Watchman]

Didn't some Russian bigwig official some time ago let out something about a particular Russian brand of democracy not comparable to Western standards ? "Sovereign Democracy" or something like that. Caused a lot of cynical amusement over here, that. That they also have "Sovereign Justice" is old news anyway.

[CrossLOPER]

Pay no attention to this post.

[CrossLOPER]

To those with open minds: I would recommend Politskovskaya's work ...

Clearly you did not read well enough. She proposed that Chechnya is an innocent angel and that Russia is to blame. The Chechens are the ones who want to break away from Russia, blame them. You may also want to check the atrocities committed on side the Chechen side. Last time I checked, skinning and beheading is not exactly "civil". Perhaps Beslan was an OK thing to do? Perhaps the invasion of Dagestan is OK? What are you trying to say?! That Russia just one day decided to go commit atrocities for kicks and picked out Chechnya?

Either way, I do not believe she deserved to die in any case, even though I see her work as borderline propaganda.

Of course you do. Justice is best done in modern Russia by ignoring murder and government activity, not by finding the truth.

I am beginning to suspect you are a hopeless case. You call me naive, gullible, illiterate, and accuse me of using "state run media" of which you have still failed to produce examples(not that it would matter, since I am quite capable at making my own conclusions). What will it take to get you to stop?

What do you want me to believe?

Do you honestly think I want that war to continue? Do you think I thrive on the knowledge that there are people being killed in that region?

You have a standing that I cannot begin to explain, not just on the subject, but on myself as well.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Clearly you did not read well enough. She proposed that Chechnya is an innocent angel and that Russia is to blame. The Chechens are the ones who want to break away from Russia, blame them. You may also want to check the atrocities committed on side the Chechen side. Last time I checked, skinning and beheading is not exactly "civil". Perhaps Beslan was an OK thing to do? Perhaps the invasion of Dagestan is OK? What are you trying to say?! That Russia just one day decided to go commit atrocities for kicks and picked out Chechnya?

She proposed nothing of the sort. Funny how Putin thought she was useful enough as an independent intermediary to ask her to help out in the Moscow theatre siege - not a task for a one-sided traitor. Russia is however the imperial power in this situation and the Chechens have the right of self-determination - oh, except that might inconvenience the pipelines. Just as Georgia is now coming under pressure because they dare to defy the imperial edicts from the Kremlin.

I have never denied that the terrorists in Chechnya have used indefensible methods, or that Beslan was an outrage - but just as in any one-sided brutal war, the imperial state reaps what it sows. And since there is evidence that Putin instigated the Moscow bombings precisely to precipitate a war in Chechnya and secure his own rise to power, yes, your last sentence has merit.

Either way, I do not believe she deserved to die in any case, even though I see her work as borderline propaganda.

Oh, that's generous of you. So if she had published what you term as propaganda, she would deserve to die? Isn't that what Putin's new law says too? In the civilised world, you will find that journalists are allowed to challenge the government and their line - it's called freedom of the press.

I am beginning to suspect you are a hopeless case. You call me naive, gullible, illiterate, and accuse me of using "state run media" of which you have still failed to produce examples(not that it would matter, since I am quite capable at making my own conclusions). What will it take to get you to stop?

What do you want me to believe?

Do you honestly think I want that war to continue? Do you think I thrive on the knowledge that there are people being killed in that region?

You have a standing that I cannot begin to explain, not just on the subject, but on myself as well.

Hopeless, perhaps. I didn't really reply for your benefit, as it has become clear that you have your own view and won't listen - just as you characterise me. I knew as much when you posted about the Estonians and the restrictions on the Russian language - like most ex-imperial powers, Russians forget that they proscribed the Estonian language and culture and now get upset when the now-independent nationalists play turn about. I deplore the decision, but as a citizen of a previously vassal state denied the same freedoms, I understand it.

I also don't recall labelling you with any of those insults - you have chosen to embrace them yourself. However, if indeed I made you feel I was insulting you, I apologise - it was not my intent. I don't want you to believe anything I say - that's my point - you appear much too willing to believe the excuses of your government. But in the end, that's your problem - I imagine you intend to return and live in Putin's Paradise one day? I hope you have managed to escape the hell of conscription (and I mean that most sincerely - I wouldn't wish that on anyone).

As for stopping, I think I will disengage from responding to you directly in the thread - we are both aware of each other's positions, and further discourse would be frustrating. I don't have any "standing" on you, just the position you take on behalf of your government. Equally, the other readers are quite able to investigate the issues for themselves and I hope they do so.

Russia and her fate is too important to the rest of us to be left without critique.