The Org Buglist v2

[FactionHeir]

First of all, let's all celebrate post 300 in the ongoing buglist...

Issue:
When the AI sallies out of a settlement that is being besieged and the defender (i.e. the besieger) has reinforcement armies available (and the AI does not) the AI messes up majorly.

Firstly it will move all its units out one gate and then slowly walk around the settlement and move most the units back in from a side gate instead of going straight for the player and/or his reinforcements. Also, the AI always walks out the gate you besiege from and then moves to the gate on YOUR right.

The big issue however is that once you beat most of the sallying AI with their routing units moving back into the city. It will often then just sit around and wait. Just that. If you don't have siege equipment (or troops able of carrying that) you pretty much are stuck because the AI doesn't want to move and you cannot exit without losing.

What's interesting is though that if you completely withdraw from the field, as soon as your last unit of your main army leaves, the AI comes alive again and moves out to face your reinforcements...
While the AI sat still in the city BTW, the AI reinforcements you get also suddenly stop dead in their tracks wherever they stand at this moment.

This is a highly annoying bug that really needs fixing.


Issue2:
Only siege equipment your units can carry are spawned when assaulting a settelement or defending from a sally. That is if you have 1 infantry unit and built say 5 siege tools, only 1 siege tool (usually the first one you built) will spawn and the rest just vanishes into thin air. That is quite annoying as you tend to build several tools in case a few go up in flames.

[FactionHeir]

If two allies are besieging a town cooperatively and the alliance breaks during the siege, none of the two are able to assault the town even with siege equipment built because "cannot lay siege to a town that is besieged by a non allied faction"

I don't think CA ever considered that problem :p

[TotalWarVet]

Listed below please find Bugs/Issues found that should be addressed by CA and not by homegrown mods. I originally posted these under the wishlist but I sincerely believ they belong here.

1) Why are the Caribbean Islands and Mexico at the same latitude as the English channel? Seems otherworldly to me.

2) Why is it that the English faction cannot train crossbowmen of any type nor infantry based gunpowder units? Can only purchase limited nonupgradable mercenary verisons of each. This is historically inaccurate and a real pain. CA should review and remedy this asap.

3) Naval unit movement:
a) A ship travelling at 5 knots for 6 months would cover over well over 1800 miles. But CA models it closer to 200 miles. A variation of same problem in earlier MTW as campaign map different and exactly the same issue as in RTW.
b) Why does it take 5 years to cross the Atlantic? Columbus did it in under 6 months.

4) Desertion of units onboard ship during a Crusade. This is really unreal. What do they do, jump into the ocean?

5) Technology freeze? When playing into the 16th century, European technology does not seem to advance beyond that of the early 14th century. English and other European naval units are frozen at the "carrack" stage and this historic anomaly allows Spain to gain sea superiority via the "grande" carrack. What about the "race" galleons the English produced in the middle 1500's (i.e. Mary Rose). Wheelock technology is also never introduced (Arquebusiers cannot shoot in rain because they use matchlocks). CA needs to revisit this.

6) Knight Upgrades Not Happening. I find these really bothersome.

a) Whenever I recruit a knight at a citadel with a jousting/tourney field I never get the expected upgrade. Also, when retraining a knight at such a citadel the experience upgrade doesn't take the first time. You end up paying twice for the same upgrade.

b) Specialty experience upgrades of both the local and global variety (St. Johns Chapter House/Headquarters) function haphazardly at best. Most of the time they just don't happen.

[sapi]

1) Because travel time is long enough as it is

2) The english can train infantry gunpowder units, and their archers are far better than crossbowman.

3) Balance. Moving from england to the holy land in a year is not fun

4) Stops exploitation, even if it is a bit odd

5) Balance again, i'm afraid

6) Yep, that's a bug

[TotalWarVet]

I really don't want to be a pain sapi, but I have to issue a response in defense of what I stated in my original post. I've been a student of history and military history in particular most of my life and was really hoping for more than eye candy from CA this time around. So here we go point by point.

1) Because travel time is long enough as it is.

I disagree completely. That has nothing to do with the fact that CA has made a gross error in geography. It took me much longer to find the Aztecs because I was looking for them at the right latitude using Columbus's idea of where to go (travel west from the Azores). Ruined the discovery experience for me when I found Brazil instead.

2) The english can train infantry gunpowder units, and their archers are far better than crossbowman.

Again I take issue. The English cannot train infantry gunpowder units. They can only retrain mercenary Arquebusiers. I have every gunpowder bldg. allowed in numerous cities and citadels and nowhere can I train gunpowder infantry. Stays a bug in my book and should in yours. Also English archers are only competitive with even crossbow militia when you train the Retinue variety, otherwise they get crushed by crossbowman. Serious balance issue here.

3) Balance. Moving from england to the holy land in a year is not fun

Sorry but pleading balance cannot explain away an obvious modelling problem. Ships of the era would have made the trip to the Holy land from Sicily in under 6 months so 1 turn to cover the distance is more accurate and should be the norm. Throw in more storms to drive vessels off course with no or limited casualties if you want balance. As a matter of fact the whole naval model in MTW2 is trash just as it was in RTW and MTW. CA really needs to spend sometime addressing this and they know it.

As a point of information however, the distance from England to the Holy land via sea is a lot more than 1800 miles. More on the order of 3500 miles (2 turns or more) since you must travel down the western coast of Europe and through the Straits of Gibraltar and then across the Med.

4) Stops exploitation, even if it is a bit odd

Again no reason to justify obvious flaw. Sometimes an exploit is borne out by history and reality and should be acceptable.

5) Balance again, i'm afraid

Again I take issue. The whole idea, at least imho, of the Toatal War experience is to model the period under consideration as accurately as is possible. That means race galleons from the mid 1500's onward for the Brits, and wheellock technology for everyone from about 1500 onward.

Thanks.

[sapi]

I do agree with some of your points, and i'm sure you'd find a lot of support here for your issues.

Unfortunately, CA has chosen to aim for a mass market appeal and make some historical omissions that will be picked up by people such as yourself.

Balance is definitely an issue - the entire game model would have to be redesigned for ships and armies to be able to move an accurate distance each turn, and that was never going to happen on the rtw engine, unfortunately. Hopefully some progress will be made on that front with the next game.

And i do suggest that you check the unit roster for the english - i'm almost 100% sure that they can build arquebusiers at the top level barraks in a city after gunpowder has been discovered - I can't check atm, but have recollections of doing so in my english campaign.

[FactionHeir]

AssassinsGuildTrained trait has effect description "+1 agent skill" (subterfuge) but according to the EDCT it gives "+1 assassination".
A big difference.

[TotalWarVet]

And i do suggest that you check the unit roster for the english - i'm almost 100% sure that they can build arquebusiers at the top level barraks in a city after gunpowder has been discovered - I can't check atm, but have recollections of doing so in my english campaign.

Did just that and have one more level to go. Remiss on my part not to go back to docs. Sorry to waste time and space on that one.

You guys really test this software with dedication.

[Dreadnought1]

On the ballista tower/cannon tower thing, I have experienced that, as Byzantium. I built ballista towers in Constantinople, well before the development of gunpowder. They fired cannon shots during battle. This happened again later in Jerusalem when I owned it, after the development of gunpowder: ballista towers fired cannons. However, it did not happen with castles. The ballista towers in Acre only fired ballista bolts. I also did not have this experience with Spain, the ballista towers at Angers (large city at the time) only fired ballista bolts, and I built the towers after the conversion. It may be a random thing, or it may be a faction specific bug.

The Cannon/Ballista tower thing is proving a problem in my campaigns.

Playing France, I took Antwerp very early and built it up as a city. The Danes kept hitting it and being wiped out by the cannon-firing ballista towers (and a few serpentines I had garrisoned).

I then took Hamburg citadel from the Danes - it had cannon towers prior to my assault. When they besieged me there, no matter how well I had the towers manned, the only thing that came out were ballista bolts!

I had the similar thing happen at Dublin as a citadel so I've just converted it to a City and will rebuild the towers to see if that makes a difference.

I'll try to demolish the towers and rebuild and see if that helps...
Cheers,
Dreadnought1

[sapi]

And i do suggest that you check the unit roster for the english - i'm almost 100% sure that they can build arquebusiers at the top level barraks in a city after gunpowder has been discovered - I can't check atm, but have recollections of doing so in my english campaign.

Did just that and have one more level to go. Remiss on my part not to go back to docs. Sorry to waste time and space on that one.

You guys really test this software with dedication.

Nah, that's alright - I only knew that because I consciously made an effort to play my english campaign past the point of victory so I could try out some gunpowder units

[Foz]

The Cannon/Ballista tower thing is proving a problem in my campaigns.

Playing France, I took Antwerp very early and built it up as a city. The Danes kept hitting it and being wiped out by the cannon-firing ballista towers (and a few serpentines I had garrisoned).

I then took Hamburg citadel from the Danes - it had cannon towers prior to my assault. When they besieged me there, no matter how well I had the towers manned, the only thing that came out were ballista bolts!

I had the similar thing happen at Dublin as a citadel so I've just converted it to a City and will rebuild the towers to see if that makes a difference.

I'll try to demolish the towers and rebuild and see if that helps...
Cheers,
Dreadnought1

It won't help, the towers are incorrectly defined in descr_walls.txt IIRC. Download the fixed walls file, it's floating around somewhere on the net (I would think maybe linked from the bug fixes thread).

[FactionHeir]

Units in spearwall and schiltrom formation often do not properly disengage after the unit they were fighting died or moved away and stay in combat mode showing text info such as "balance of forces is evenly matched" and still play attack animations without actually doing anything.
The problem however is that after a while, those troops become fatigued hitting thin air and thus you keep having to check on whether a unit is still fighting or not.
The same is true for archers that have been taken out of skirmish mode and have been engaged in melee by enemies and those enemies have moved away or been killed. They also stay in melee mode till you tell them otherwise and poke away at air.

[TotalWarVet]

Two points.

1) Alchemist upgrades for gunpowder units increase melee rating but not missle as I believe it should. Docs state that Alchemist upgrades gunpowder weapons.

2) Also, bug mentioned by FactionHeir regarding units battling phantom enemies holds true for any unit. The bug is intermitent and therefore hard to reproduce with consistency. I have found it occurring most often when assaulting a city and engaging in street fighting. Similar thing happened in RTW. Maybe a problem with the combat engine. Only way around I've found is to issue a move order to a position far enough away so that a break in the action occurs. Issuing an attack order on another enemy unit doesn't seem to work.

[PutCashIn]

Playing today as the Moors, I called a Jihad on Edinburgh(?).

Sailed a stack of Generals and Cav. up past Wales and Ireland on a cheap 200 Florin mercenary Cog.

At the beginning of the turn the troops landed in Edinburgh, the green movement radius for the Cog was restricted by the Fog of War (F.O.W), although by inching closer to the reigon, the F.O.W was removed and the movement radius extended far enough to get the ship next to the coast.

Thinking if the ship is out of movement, then surely the troops onboard must be (that is, using TotalWar 'thinking' logic and all that) out of movement too.

But they were able to move a few squares off the ship towards Edinburgh.

"Fine, no problem" I think, "I just dont understand ship/troop movement as well as i thought," despite all the hundereds of hours spent on these games.

Then, maybe because I was playing the Moors and MTW2 'felt' (in a surreal AI sense of the word) sorry for me, and gifted my Cog with infinite movement.

I mean, the green movement radius, post troop deployment, was at the max for a Ship on a Jihad. So I moved the Cog max distance, reaching Denmark.

Then the green movement radius was replenished, during the same turn.

Having tired (not really, it was heaps of fun) of running this ship all around the Med' I eventually crashed into a pirate, who called his mate and sank the Cog during the rebel turn (actually, the Cog ran from the first pirate a max Jihad/Crusade distance, beat the second pirate in a heroic victory, was sunk by the third.)

I have screenies, but meh, please dont fix this bug, I want another Infinite Move Cog (and my CD Key back, you slug).

[TotalWarVet]

Knight Upgrades Not Happening.

a) Whenever I recruit a knight at a citadel with a jousting/tourney field I never get the expected upgrade. Also, when retraining a knight at such a citadel the experience upgrade doesn't take the first time. You end up paying twice for the same upgrade.

b) Specialty experience upgrades of both the local and global variety (St. Johns Chapter House/Headquarters) function haphazardly at best. Most of the time they just don't happen.

Workaround:

Someone, somewhere on these forums mentioned that they were having problems with this as well.

They found that when saving a game and exiting or reloading it, the experience upgrades based on what was in the training/retraining queues were never done, and that if the queues were unloaded and then reloaded with no intervening game load/reload and a turn roll occurred then the experience upgrades worked.

I have found this to be absolutely true. My knight experience troubles were fixed by this workaround. CA should check on the persistence of training queue data. This is still a bug in my book.

[FactionHeir]

Pre-battle screen:
Rightclicking an enemy commander will open that commander's army card, but rightclicking your own or an allied commander will only open that commander's character card, leaving you clueless about what troops you have.

If you bring more than 1 reinforcements (i.e. you get the scrolling tab) and uncheck the default "AI control" and check and then uncheck "night battle" and then rightclick an enemy army commander, the scrolling tab will disappear and you can no longer control the control of any reinforcements except the first.

[FactionHeir]

This time a more serious bug:

If you are hiring mercenaries but have not yet completed the transaction (i.e. you have the merc screen open and dragged a few over to the "to hire" section) and then disband any unit from your army, all mercs currently in the "to hire" section vanish and cannot be rehired - this means you need to wait another 10-20 turns for the mercs to replenish.

I didn't pay attention whether it also subtracted florins or not, but this is reproducible.

[FactionHeir]

2 More I found while looking through files:

Assassinating someone who resides in your lands is 30% harder than assassinating them in their lands.

VapidWoman lacks a corresponding WifeIs trait. In contrast, EducatedWoman gives WifeIsWise.

[FactionHeir]

When fighting the Papal States army where a general has more stars than the Pope, the General commands instead of the Pope who is Faction Leader (according to manual, the faction leader always leads the battle).

Pre-battle screen coincidies with that, but gold star/silver star does not.

In battle, if the General falls, the cutscene is played and the general's name is listed correctly as the fallen.
If now the faction leader dies, the general who died already is mentioned again as having died without cutscene.

[Foz]

Assassinating someone who resides in your lands is 30% harder than assassinating them in their lands.

Is there evidence that this is unintentional? Because to me it makes a lot of sense. It doesn't seem like a stretch to suggest that men leading armies or otherwise travelling to foreign lands would be more cautious to guard against assassins than they would when in the comfort of their own homes. I for instance am very careful to lock my door whenever staying in a hotel away from home. Yet any given night, it's unlikely that I've taken the time to do so when at home. As a result, it would undoubtedly be far easier to assassinate me while I am at home than it would be when I am travelling. There's a whole different, more cautious mentality that goes along with being in an unfamiliar place, which could easily be what the game mechanics are reflecting.

[FactionHeir]

While that is true, you also need to consider that if your king ordered an assassination, you as a city guard are unlikely to intervene (as in the scenes). Similarly, the normal folk would try to keep out.

Your assassin is also more likely to know the area better and the people who can help him

[nikolai1962]

Retreat bug.

AI army attacks a city, loses, retreats and stalls. Various things can unstick it but it may take an awful long time. Happens in many places across the map. Easy to spot examples are helsinki/smyrna. Russia/byzies attack early and if they lose and retreat then the russian stack always and byzies sometimes get stuck.

Better in MTW2 than RTW but only because there are more ways for the stuck armies to get unstuck. Big handicap for the AI.

[FactionHeir]

Trigger battle3dread and battle3chivalry are duplicated in the character traits file as battle3dread and battle3chivalry_fighting

[FactionHeir]

Free Company Men At Arms have a heavy cavalry voiceset

[Frederick_I_Barbarossa]

Since I don't really feel like sifting through dozens of pages of posts, I'll just ask:

Has anything been said here about the "phantom family tree", which I assume is a bug caused when you use a princess to "steal" another faction's general.

[sapi]

Yes

On that note, i'd say ease off the contributions until after the patch is out, at which point i'll redo the buglist from scratch

[FactionHeir]

You are saying I wrote the last page or two of this topic for nothing? :p

I really do wanna add though, that if you right click a Native Archer unit to look at its unit card, it will show you a Roman Peasant.

[FactionHeir]

I suppose I can't resist the temptation of posting yet another bug (that isn't on the 1.2 fixlist):

Combat bonus vs faction (i.e. +X command vs faction Y) is not working.
I attacked a Milanese family member who had "hates the french" (-1 command) but he still had his lone command star in the pre battle screen.
Not just a display error because he was also afraid of the dark and the night battle correctly decreased his command points.

[FactionHeir]

Can't resist....

- Routing mounted units that have a ranged weapon will start/continue to shoot at enemies in range once leaving the battlefield.

- LeaderDestroyedFaction condition is not working at all.

[FactionHeir]

When sallying against a besieging AI that has siege equipment (ram, tower, ladder), those do not appear on the battle map.

However, if the AI sallies against you, your units actually carry them.