Overpowered peasants and the Spear attribute.

[JeffBag]

With the export_descr_unit available now, I went to check out those peasants to see why they were killing all the town militia and spear militias. Well, it seems that the only reason why they are annihilating those spears is simply because, they don't have the spear attribute. This means that the penalty to spears for fighting other infantry is very, very great, and while this may or may not be bad, it seems to make spears even more useless now given that they are completely incapable of holding back cavalry charges even when it is armoured sergeants 6 rows deep against mailed knights.

I don't see why there is a need to penalise spearmen against other infantry units as well, since they aren't exactly very cheap either. Swordsmen or axemen are generally more cost effective since they kill cavalry just fine with their higher attack or armour piercing capabilities, and they are also much more versatile since they are capable of destroying other infantry as well. I must admit that the total bonuses against cavalry are rather significant though, since they get bonuses from the spear attribute, and a further +8 to their attack against cavalry. Unfortunately, given that cavalry units have much lower defense stats now, and even less when you factor out the shield, which is pretty insignificant given that most units would be attacking the horses from the sides when they charge in, and from the back when they charge out. Therefore, there is no real need for such excessive bonuses against cavalry.

[Veresov]

With the export_descr_unit available now, I went to check out those peasants to see why they were killing all the town militia and spear militias. Well, it seems that the only reason why they are annihilating those spears is simply because, they don't have the spear attribute. This means that the penalty to spears for fighting other infantry is very, very great, and while this may or may not be bad, it seems to make spears even more useless now given that they are completely incapable of holding back cavalry charges even when it is armoured sergeants 6 rows deep against mailed knights.

I don't see why there is a need to penalise spearmen against other infantry units as well, since they aren't exactly very cheap either. Swordsmen or axemen are generally more cost effective since they kill cavalry just fine with their higher attack or armour piercing capabilities, and they are also much more versatile since they are capable of destroying other infantry as well. I must admit that the total bonuses against cavalry are rather significant though, since they get bonuses from the spear attribute, and a further +8 to their attack against cavalry. Unfortunately, given that cavalry units have much lower defense stats now, and even less when you factor out the shield, which is pretty insignificant given that most units would be attacking the horses from the sides when they charge in, and from the back when they charge out. Therefore, there is no real need for such excessive bonuses against cavalry.

I am completely mystified as to why the peasants can crush the town watch and the spear militia. Statwise peasants are inferior but they seem to own everything. I mentioned in another post that I built nothing but peasants in the early game and was having no problem taking settlements.

I really do not like this uber peasant 'feature'. It is beyond silly.

[Kraxis]

I noticed the same thing... It seems wholly unreasonable that spearunits suffer such heavy penalties, as to make Peasants be able to take on Sergeant Spearmen on even terms.

And I agree if knights get off a proper charge spears are next to useless. So why even use them?

At least I have found out that all spearunits get at least one type of bonus against cavalry, and most (even Town Militia) get a +4 to attack. Makes one wonder why that isn't mentioned in the description.

Where is that superb spearunit that can fight both infantry and cavalry? The spear was not a bad weapon at all, ask those who use them. I don't mind the rock/paper/scissors, but this is downright silly.

I do however believe there is a chance for something to correct at least some of the problems. There is another spear attribute (spear and light_spear) that makes the unit more resistant to charges. Perhaps it can be added to make spearunits more durable against knights (or just Mounted Sergeants).

[BigTex]

Dumb question, I havent seen the unpacker released. Got a link to were I can download it?

As for the peasant problem. They have always been rather good, but in this build their morale seems a bit too high. Maybe changing that so it is lower should make things a little more balanced.

[Quillan]

It hasn't been released, but one of the mods here, Epistolary Richard, got permission from CA to release the already unpacked files. If you head over to the Mod Chat forum for M2TW, you should find the thread that has the link to the files in it. So you can download a couple of zip files that contain the already unpacked text and XML files that are used by the game, and have a look at them.

[BigTex]

It hasn't been released, but one of the mods here, Epistolary Richard, got permission from CA to release the already unpacked files. If you head over to the Mod Chat forum for M2TW, you should find the thread that has the link to the files in it. So you can download a couple of zip files that contain the already unpacked text and XML files that are used by the game, and have a look at them.

Thanks much, was wondering.

[Kraxis]

As for the peasant problem. They have always been rather good, but in this build their morale seems a bit too high. Maybe changing that so it is lower should make things a little more balanced.

No they haven't...

In STW the Ashis were connonfodder (unless you count MP in where the Honour 8 Ashis were unbeatable), and they weren't even peasants per se, but well armed infantry of another social class than samurai.

In MTW Peasants were terrible. So bad that if you modded them out of the training the enemy factions got a whole lot harder to defeat (more than in RTW). They had one single thing going for them, a good charge. But since teh chragebonus is just that, and you have to add it to the attack value, Peasants weren't really good at that either. At best they could be used to bolster the numbers of a weak army.

RTW Peasants were ther to be killed. They lasted fairly long, but hardly killed anything aside from archers and other weak melee troops.

Now however, Peasants can fight professional troops head on and expect to win half the time. Professional troops vs a bunch of downtrodden, half starved, untrained, unarmed and unarmoured peasants... Result is 50/50.
Hardly in key with the other games at all, where even the lowest troops above Peasants (Spearmen and Urban Militia comes to mind, but also Woodsmen) could cream them.

[JeffBag]

The spear and light_spear attributes are in the game, spear mainly to, well, the spear units, and light_spear to units like town militia. Its supposed to make your unit more resistant to cavalry charges, and to reflect back the charge damage. The problem is, that the unit still isn't at all resistant to cavalry charge, and while you still kill some cavalry when you reflect the charge, you still lose by cost. Playing on Huge unit size, and very hard, I set up 3 units of armoured sergeants 6 rows deep side by side, and let a single unit of mailed knights charge them, 2 rows deep. The first two lines of spears die, but killing only half of the first row of knights. To make matters worse, cavalry can gallop on the spot, held still by the first row, so, when the first row dies, the second row still charges in, and kills another 2 rows of your spearmen. The mailed always has the cost advantage, and its usually very significant to the point of being unbalanced.

[FactionHeir]

Yeah, I noticed how peasants led by a high command general seem very tough to beat. Pilgrims too, which really are peasants (same stats).
You shoulda seen my face when I charged a few feudals into a peasant high army and even though they killed a unit or two, once they got enveloped they were meat. You wouldn't expect that with the stat comparison (roughly 10/15 vs 1/1)

[CeltiberoMordred]

From the EDU file:

Spears have 0.6 lethality.

Swords have 1 lethality.

So think about two units, both with same stats but one armed with sword and another with a spear. Spear without "spear atribute" of course.

The sword will perform 66% better than the spear. Vs every enemy.

I don't know how much is the "spear" atribute penalization, but it looks to me redundant. Or maybe what is redundant is different lethalities for each weapon (which make "attack" stats meaningless).

[Mr Frost]

I noticed in the export_descr_unit.txt that the Skeleton compensation factor in melee which is what I used to refer to as the lethality factor {and that seems to describe how it modifys the results of an attack} is very high for Peasants .
In RTW that stat basically seemed to make the likelyhood of a successful attack more likely to result in a kill the higher it was with 1 being the highest . RTR and EB {and others , me too ;p} used it as a way to lower the kill rates and the slow the pace of melee {I also used minimum delay in combination} .

Now it seem to have changed a little with values over 1 being valid {before , it seemed to count any value greater than 1 as 1} , but if it works anything like it did before , then the 1.8 {strewth !} given to Peasants is surely a typo as that is a huge increase over 1 , let alone over the paltry 0.6 of all spear infantry I looked at !
To put it into perspective for those who haven't played around with that stat in RTW , it seemed to be a fairly straight forward progression where {to my observations , and I monked around with those sets of stat a lot} 1 gave twice the kill rate of 0.5 over a given period of time if all else {including skeleton etc} were equal .


I think the 1.8 of Peasants {whom are using the same animation as spearmen to look at them} is a typo as it is giving them a kill rate on a successful hit of up to 3 times that of spear infantry ! Now , granted , the spearmen have more successful hits {higher attack} and get hit less often {higher defense} , but even if the Skeleton compensation factor in melee stat progression is in a curve etc , then the value difference is still way off .
1.8 is surely a mistake {again , same animation , same skeleton then one must assume , so why such a massive "compensation" when those pitchforks are really just badly designed spears ?

[Mr Frost]

From the EDU file:

Spears have 0.6 lethality.

Swords have 1 lethality.

So think about two units, both with same stats but one armed with sword and another with a spear. Spear without "spear atribute" of course.

The sword will perform 66% better than the spear. Vs every enemy.

I don't know how much is the "spear" atribute penalization, but it looks to me redundant. Or maybe what is redundant is different lethalities for each weapon (which make "attack" stats meaningless).

Sorry , was so tired I didn't notice your post until after I had posted . You say some of what I did .

To elaborate on the same point , in RTW , spears had 0.87 as this stat {again though , in RTW 1 was the highest value , now apparantly higher values are applicable , and it *might* function a little different too , though judgeing on spear verses sword performance , I think the mechanic is still the same .

Come the unpacker , I'm going to fetch me my modding hat :D

[Daveybaby]

Hmmm.... this 1.8 business - is that the last entry in the stat_pri table youre talking about? If so, it's only 1.8 for muslim peasants, 'normal' peasants and southern peasants still have 0.6

Or am i looking at the wrong thing here?

[BigTex]

Hmmm.... this 1.8 business - is that the last entry in the stat_pri table youre talking about? If so, it's only 1.8 for muslim peasants, 'normal' peasants and southern peasants still have 0.6

Or am i looking at the wrong thing here?

No your looking correctly. It seems to be working strangely in this version. As mentioned with billmen, lowering this stat from 1.33 to 1 increased the kills significantly, actually allowing them to completely decimate cavalry. Going on that, and ignoring that it could very well be that just the 1.33 factor is just bugged. Then having 1.8 should mean a horendusly bad kill rate. Maybe it's just that the peasants have an advantage over spears. Could very well be that the spear attribute gives them enough of a disadvantage to infantry units in melee that the peasants can slaughter them.

Would be simpler to just give the peasants low morale really to balance the thing out. That or give them the spear attribute but not the spear_4 or spear_8 attribute.

[JeffBag]

Skeleton compensation is no longer a measure of lethality, obviously, and I now believe it to be a value regarding the weapon range. Notice that muslim peasants with a value of 1.8 are equipped with mere daggers, while European peasants with pitchforks get a value of 0.6, just like any other spearmen?

[Lusted]

As mentioned with billmen, lowering this stat from 1.33 to 1 increased the kills significantly, actually allowing them to completely decimate cavalry. Going on that, and ignoring that it could very well be that just the 1.33 factor is just bugged.

If you look in the edu, all the bugged 2handed units(billmen, dismounted knights, varangians) have the 1.33 value, im changing it to 1 and seeing what effect it has.

[Jambo]

Skeleton compensation is no longer a measure of lethality, obviously, and I now believe it to be a value regarding the weapon range. Notice that muslim peasants with a value of 1.8 are equipped with mere daggers, while European peasants with pitchforks get a value of 0.6, just like any other spearmen?

I think you're on to something. Looking at Highland Rabble who also bear daggers, they also have a value of 1.8.

Possibly the 1.33 value is bugged for Billmen. Like I said in another thread, what are the values for the other "bugged" 2-handed units and is there any correlation? This value for the axe-wielding troops seems to vary from 1 to 1.2 to 1.33. Is it only the troops types with 1.33 that don't work properly?

[Kraxis]

If you look in the edu, all the bugged 2handed units(billmen, dismounted knights, varangians) have the 1.33 value, im changing it to 1 and seeing what effect it has.

Well, wouldn't 1.3 or 1.4 be better? I mean that would be closer to the original, while hopefully getting away from the buggy number.

In any case, I will give ALL peasants the spear attribute without the bonus. Or rather the light_spear attribute so that they don't get too much help against cavalry. I really don't like them fighting and winning against Militia.

But aren't the higher numbers better? Give me the unpacker so I can test this out... I want to tweak the game so that stats mean more.

[redmark]

I've tested the billmen against Border Cavalry (allowing the billmen first charge) with values of 0.1, 0.3, 0.5, 0.6, 0.9, 1.0, 1.2, 1.33... no difference. They do not attack after the initial charge (in 25+ tests, I ONCE saw ONE billman take a swing). The initial charge kills 7-10 cavalry, then the general (sword) may kill a few more.

Replacing the billman soldier model with (e.g.) militia halberd, and they attack just fine, even with the 1.33 value.

I don't think this is our solution, unfortunately.

[Kraxis]

that we need either CA to fix this (which I expect to be done with the patch), or have some modder apply the Billman skin to the Halberd model.

[Aelwyn]

Unfortunately this problem is going to be even larger when the charge is fixed for the patch. Right now theres almost no clearcut model for describing how engagements will happen between cavalry and spearmen.

I've sent cavs on a charge at another unit, which was going fine the first 100 yards or so. When they got within 10 yards of the unit, they came to a dead halt for a few seconds, then slowly engaged the unit.

Other times, they get a full on charge when starting from a standstill about 20 yards away. Neither one of those should be happening. So once the charge is fixed, I feel like battles will be closer to they were in RTW...in that Cavalry can simply roll over infantry, and move from unit to unit decimating them.