Secret of the Jannissary Heavy Infantry.

[BigTex]

While plowing through the export_descr_unit.txt while trying to figure out the strange happenings with the 2hd axemen, more specifically the varangian guard. I ran across the JHI. It seems that they not only have the AP and attack value of their 2hd axemen brethren but also have a swordsmen weapons speed. This might actually explain why they seem to plow through almost any other infantry in the game.

The average for all swordsmen is 1, spears .6, axemen 1.33, 2hd swordsmen 1.3, pikes 1 also. But halberds have a speed of 1, with ap stat and a 4 spear bonus to cavalry. This may very well explain why any halberd (voulge swordstaff included) can tear through quite a lot, and why JHI being better then almost any can decimate nearly anything.

I doubt that the billmen and 2hd axemen have an animation problem vs's cavalry. But they have such a slow attack speed compared the cavalry that they end up in a near continual parry lock. I have tested them quite a lot and have noticed that on very rare occasions they will indeed kill a knight after a charge, just very rarely.

A speed increase might be in order for them, and probably at least the 4_spear attribute for the billmen.

[JeffBag]

If I remember correctly, 0 is the absolute fastest? Which makes 2-handed swordsmen slower than halberdiers? That doesn't really make sense.

Billmen is bugged against cavalry, because 2-handed swordsmen have a speed of 1.30 and billmen have a speed of 1.33. The difference between spears, at 0.60, and swords at 1.00, is barely noticeable, so how can a difference of 0.03 be so dramatic? 2-handed swordsmen totally rip cavalry apart, while billmen don't. Yes, they do swing once in a while, I've seen it before, but that is only when the billman is exactly at the side of the cavalry unit, and is standing extremely close to it. Notice also that billmen have no problem attacking spearmen as well, who are supposed to be extremely fast?

[Burakius]

dude... my jannisaries get decimated when fighting against dismounted knights in melee combat....

[PaulTa]

Yeah, I don't know if this exactly explains it BigTex. That, or there might be a hidden bonus for zweihanders. My zweihanders, on average, tear through enemy infantry faster than dismounted feudal knights or even chiv knights. It definitely is something to take into account though.

[FactionHeir]

Mounted Feudal knights totally tear through JHI in melee (no charge) when neither has any boni (none from general either).
They also got killed by dismounted ones.

[Dave1984]

If I remember correctly, 0 is the absolute fastest? Which makes 2-handed swordsmen slower than halberdiers? That doesn't really make sense.

Billmen is bugged against cavalry, because 2-handed swordsmen have a speed of 1.30 and billmen have a speed of 1.33. The difference between spears, at 0.60, and swords at 1.00, is barely noticeable, so how can a difference of 0.03 be so dramatic? 2-handed swordsmen totally rip cavalry apart, while billmen don't. Yes, they do swing once in a while, I've seen it before, but that is only when the billman is exactly at the side of the cavalry unit, and is standing extremely close to it. Notice also that billmen have no problem attacking spearmen as well, who are supposed to be extremely fast?

As a bit of a test, I played around with billmen's attributes in EDU and gave them a +4 bonus against cavalry. On testing this in custom battle against mailed knights with heavy billmen, the billmen were torn to shreds. I then tried adding a spear bonus to them, with the same results. Zooming in I noticed that as you mentioned they barely ever get an attack in. They just stand there.

Then I changed their attack speed to 1 instead of 1.33 and this time, and the several times thereafter, the billmen either won or inflicted heavy losses on the horsemen, as opposed to 10-15 if they were lucky before.
I was pleased to see the billmen swinging their weapons at the horses alot this time, obviously to do with the speed.

They probably need a little more balancing but at least we know we can fix it fairly easily!

[BigTex]

As a bit of a test, I played around with billmen's attributes in EDU and gave them a +4 bonus against cavalry. On testing this in custom battle against mailed knights with heavy billmen, the billmen were torn to shreds. I then tried adding a spear bonus to them, with the same results. Zooming in I noticed that as you mentioned they barely ever get an attack in. They just stand there.

Then I changed their attack speed to 1 instead of 1.33 and this time, and the several times thereafter, the billmen either won or inflicted heavy losses on the horsemen, as opposed to 10-15 if they were lucky before.
I was pleased to see the billmen swinging their weapons at the horses alot this time, obviously to do with the speed.

They probably need a little more balancing but at least we know we can fix it fairly easily!

Maybe try changing the attack speed to 1.3 so it would be equivalent to zwiehanders. Very interesting results.

dude... my jannisaries get decimated when fighting against dismounted knights in melee combat....

Most infantry do get torn to shreds by dismounted fuedal knights. Statistically speaking the fuedal knights should always win. They have an equal attack speed, but they still have far superior stats. The AP wont even knock the dismounted knights defense lower then their defense even. If fuedal knights didn't win almost every time, then there would be some major problems.

[Mr Frost]

It is not attack speed , that is a function of minimum delay {the stat just before Skeleton compensation factor in melee} which is how many 1/10s of a second pass between each attack animation cycle {as I understand it} .
When playing around with it in RTW {a lot} , I never saw it {Skeleton compensation factor in melee , the last number in the stat_pri line} alter the speed of actual attacks . What it did do however was effect how likely a successful attack was to kill . Lowering it to 0.1 {lowest viable setting I believe} resulted in the same rate of attacks as 1 {highest valid value in RTW , but not in MTWII apparantly , Peasants have 1.8 !} and most soldiers being able to get up after a successful hit .

The Skeleton compensation factor in melee seems rather to effect how likely a successful hit is to actuall kill , rather than knock down {RTW , don't see it happen in MTWII yet} or simply rock the target {whom then shakes it off and keeps fighting} .

[BigTex]

Interesting Mr Frost. But that doesnt explain the strange results then. Almost every unit has a 25 attack delay, but many units will attack slower then others. This includes 2hd axemen, even swordsmen have 25 delay. If lowering it from a 1.33 to a 1 increased kills, something has changed. Not only increasing kills but fixing the billmen, so they slaughtered cavalry, this is strange. I had known it worked like that in RTW but still wierd.

[JeffBag]

Okay just checked export_descr_unit, and at the top that value is described as the 'Skeleton compensation factor in melee. Should be 1'. In RTW it was clearly stated as 'lethality'. I have absolutely no idea what 'skeleton compensation' means though.

[BigTex]

Okay just checked export_descr_unit, and at the top that value is described as the 'Skeleton compensation factor in melee. Should be 1'. I have absolutely no idea what that means though. Mind if somebody switch the value of billmen to 1 and check if they start the slaughter?

They already have look at D Wilsons post. It increased it's kills, actually allowing them to slaughter the cavalry.

[JeffBag]

Yeah, I remembered it just as I hit enter, so I edited it out. Unfortunately, I wasn't fast enough.

However, I think I know what Skeleton Compensation is for. I believe its the 'range' value, or how much to subtract off the default range or something. I believe this is so because units equipped with those pansy daggers all seem to have a value of 1.8, while spears get a value of 0.6. I suppose 1.3 is the max before the 'bug' sets in?

Now somebody needs to set it to a value of 0, or very close to 0, and see if the unit begins its attack from a distance away or something.

[Mr Frost]

As a bit of a test, I played around with billmen's attributes in EDU and gave them a +4 bonus against cavalry. On testing this in custom battle against mailed knights with heavy billmen, the billmen were torn to shreds. I then tried adding a spear bonus to them, with the same results. Zooming in I noticed that as you mentioned they barely ever get an attack in. They just stand there.

Then I changed their attack speed to 1 instead of 1.33 and this time, and the several times thereafter, the billmen either won or inflicted heavy losses on the horsemen, as opposed to 10-15 if they were lucky before.
I was pleased to see the billmen swinging their weapons at the horses alot this time, obviously to do with the speed.

They probably need a little more balancing but at least we know we can fix it fairly easily!

As I stated above , unless the stat function has changed drastically , it isn't attack speed , that is the stat before it {number of 1/10 of a second between attacks . Either they did change it {senseless when the stat that was before it was for exacly that puropse , ie speed of attacks} or did something different in the modded fights .
Had you left the cav_attack bonuses in ? Did you alter anything else {like the stat just before it which actually is supposed to effect attack speed and is usually 25} ? Did you drop the Skeleton compensation factor in melee to 1 or did you forget to remove the decimal point so you got 1. , which might confuse the code {or try to make it 1.0 , but accidently delete the decimal point so you got 10 ;p} ?


The other possibility is it works the same as in RTW up to value of 1 , the reverses the progression , but it makes no sense that they did that , and wouldn't explaint the performance of the "uberpeasants" with a Skeleton compensation factor in melee of 1.8 verses spearmen with a 0.6} .




In RTW , halving that stat {say from 1 down to 0.5} halved the kill-rate . What you did {dropping their Skeleton compensation factor in melee from 1.33 to 1}should have lowered their kill-rate , not increased it , and by a significant margin .

The 2-handed animation has numerous different attacks in it repetiour , and one of them does KO mounted units every time {the big "king hit" where they swing the weapon right over their heads as far as it will go and step forward whilst they chop downwards with the weapon with all their might} .
They almost never use it against horses unmodifyed which is silly given every time I've seen it done it killed the Mounted Knight , but they use it more often on infantry . It is very a slow/time consuming attack , and perhaps the AI chose to use more of the slower "power hits" against the cavalry because they now had less "punch" all round {could it be coded like that , it would make sense in real life if you could only drop you enemy with certain big hits to use they a lot if he was in your face ?} ?



Again , what you claim is completely different stat behavior that that stat gave in RTW , and would rather have been what I would have expected from the stat before it {ie faster attack} . Something is off


Gah , it looks like my post is a little out of sync with the pace of the thread . I'm very tired and took a long time to compose it and it is now a little lagged ;p I'm going to play a little to wind down and then get some Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :)

[Jambo]

However, I think I know what Skeleton Compensation is for. I believe its the 'range' value, or how much to subtract off the default range or something. I believe this is so because units equipped with those pansy daggers all seem to have a value of 1.8, while spears get a value of 0.6. I suppose 1.3 is the max before the 'bug' sets in?

Now somebody needs to set it to a value of 0, or very close to 0, and see if the unit begins its attack from a distance away or something.

This sounds very plausible. Do all the bugged 2-handers (dismounted English knights, Billmen, Varangian Guard, etc) have a value of 1.33?

[Lusted]

They do, i just looked, and changed it to 1 which im about to test. I've noticed that non bugged 2handed troops have it set to 1.2.

[JeffBag]

I just tested it, and billmen still don't swing, at least in my game. Would D_Wilson please post his EDU entry of billmen so we may take a look at it? Would be interested in your findings too, Lusted.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I tested billmen set at 1, as well as 0.6.

[Lusted]

Just going off to test now.

[BigTex]

I just tested it, and billmen still don't swing, at least in my game. Would D_Wilson please post his EDU entry of billmen so we may take a look at it? Would be interested in your findings too, Lusted.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I tested billmen set at 1, as well as 0.6.

Yeah just got done testing the skeletal factor, doesnt seem change a thing.

Edit~: Did some more testing. Going off the idea that it increases their reach, I bumped their Skeletal factor up to 1.8. The results against simple militia cavalry was simply a massacre. Lossing less then 40 men and recieving 3 full charges the billmen laid waste to them.

[JeffBag]

Could you clarify your statement please? I didn't quite understand you.
Who got massacred?

Anyhow, I tested this out, and billmen still don't attack horses for me. Also, if skeletal factor is indeed about reach, then less is more, since 1.8 is the value that men with daggers have, and 0.6 is the value for spears.

[BigTex]

Could you clarify your statement please? I didn't quite understand you.
Who got massacred?

Anyhow, I tested this out, and billmen still don't attack horses for me. Also, if skeletal factor is indeed about reach, then less is more, since 1.8 is the value that men with daggers have, and 0.6 is the value for spears.

The cavalry were beaten and killed. But with more testing that was more of a fluke. Intriging though. They still didn't swing.

[Dave1984]

As I stated above , unless the stat function has changed drastically , it isn't attack speed , that is the stat before it {number of 1/10 of a second between attacks . Either they did change it {senseless when the stat that was before it was for exacly that puropse , ie speed of attacks} or did something different in the modded fights .
Had you left the cav_attack bonuses in ? Did you alter anything else {like the stat just before it which actually is supposed to effect attack speed and is usually 25} ? Did you drop the Skeleton compensation factor in melee to 1 or did you forget to remove the decimal point so you got 1. , which might confuse the code {or try to make it 1.0 , but accidently delete the decimal point so you got 10 ;p} ?

Yeah, I was looking at this thread instead of the top of the EDU when I ran these tests, having not modded anything but skins in RTW and so being a little unfamiliar. What awoke me to it was someone calling the figure something elsewhere somewhere else, which led me to actually read up on it and think "aha"

It turned out had changed the Skeleton Compensation factor, not the speed, although I notice that in the notes at the top of the file it says it should be 1 anyway.

There are no decimal places left anywhere.

I do stand by the results I got but I acknowledge that we're not always going to get exactly the same results every time.

Whatever happened, the only factor I changed that produced a noticeable difference was the skeletal compensation factor.

This is my EDU entry for heavy billmen as used in my tests. As you can see I've added a spear bonus and an anti-cav mount effect (which I'm not sure if it only applies if the unit itself is mounted as well, but no-one got anywhere without giving it a go!)
As you can see the speed is unchanged and the SC factor is down to one.

type Heavy Billmen
dictionary Heavy_Billmen ; Heavy Billmen
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Heavy_Billmen, 48, 0, 1.2
mount_effect horse +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 15, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap, spear_bonus_4
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 3, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex 7, 8, 0, 0, 3, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 5, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 300, 150, 75, 55, 300, 4, 70
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Heavy_Billmen, Heavy_Billmen_ug1
ownership england
era 2 england
;unit_info 15, 0, 10

With this I saw better results against peasants and better results against cavalry although they still struggle a bit with each.
But at this point all I was pointing out was that I noticed that the issue with them never seeming to be trying to hit cavalry seemed to have been resolved in my case.

Should this be in modding research now?

[Kraxis]

No, not yet... this is still about gamemechanics that can be of use to all, and not just modders.

Keep going, I'm following this intently.

[redmark]

I've been testing the billmen issue for a couple of hours. Methodology: I control a unit of Scots Border Cavalry, and walk them towards AI English billmen. Therefore, the billmen get the first charge.

Regardless of settings, the billmen will kill 7-10 cavalry on the initial charge. The billman general (wielding a sword) will kill a few more.

After that, they do not attack. It doesn't matter if the skeleton compensation wotsit is 0.1, 0.6. 1.0, 1.2, 1.33, etc. It doesn't make any difference if you change delay between attacks, give them a secondary weapon identical to primary (just in case it was treating melee with cav as 'secondary'), etc etc.

On the other hand, keeping vanilla settings for billmen but replacing the 'soldier model' with (for example) militia halberd, and the unit does fight, and does so very well regardless of the default 1.33 figure.

It's the animation.

[andrewt]

I'm wondering, what's the speed for Venetian heavy infantry? I preferred these guys over the dismounted feudal knights in my Venetian campaign because of support costs and wondering how they really stack up in melee against the dismounted knights.

[Kobal2fr]

The cavalry were beaten and killed. But with more testing that was more of a fluke. Intriging though. They still didn't swing.

You did say the cav charged thrice. That would be it. I've noticed almost every successful proper charge kills some of the charging horsemen in the collision, even charging peasants in the back will do it.

[BigTex]

You did say the cav charged thrice. That would be it. I've noticed almost every successful proper charge kills some of the charging horsemen in the collision, even charging peasants in the back will do it.

Indeed it would seem so. Was a little late and things were getting jumbled. It did seem that the higher it was the longer the charge laste though.

Thanks redmark for the insight.

[Musashi]

On the other hand, keeping vanilla settings for billmen but replacing the 'soldier model' with (for example) militia halberd, and the unit does fight, and does so very well regardless of the default 1.33 figure.

How did you accomplish that? England doesn't have Halberd Militia, wouldn't you end up with invisible troops due to the lack of textures?

[redmark]

How did you accomplish that? England doesn't have Halberd Militia, wouldn't you end up with invisible troops due to the lack of textures?

Like so:

type Billmen
...
soldier Halberd_Militia, 48, 0, 1
...
armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2
armour_ug_models Billmen, Billmen_ug1, Billmen_ug2
...


The only changed bit in bold. What I think happens is that the unit listed after 'soldier' determines the underlying model for animation, but the displayed graphic is that defined under armour_ug_models. In the custom battle, the unit displayed is recognisably billmen, but they fight with the the halberd militia animation (I presume, not sure I've used halberd militia - certainly isn't the billmen attack animation seen against infantry, anyway).

[Musashi]

Ah... Interesting.

That will help me out some.

Of course what I really want is to be able to create new textures so I can take existing units and make them available to other factions. Particularly Arquebusiers and Musketeers...

To be honest when the unpacker comes out I'll probably make a quick cut and paste type job to give every unit textures for every faction, so that I can give any faction any unit after that...

In the mean time, for purely bug-fix purposes, what we should do is compile a list of the units we know work, and the ones we know don't, and just replace the soldier line for each one with a similar unit we know does work, and release that.

For instance, I know Voulgier, Venetian Heavy Infantry, and Halberd Militia work properly in the polearms category so we could use those animations for Billmen and Berdiche Axemen (Who are also bugged)...

Which two handed sword types work? We could use those to fix the Dismounted English Knights and Varangians...

[Shahed]

You know that this bug was in the demo.

And I was the only one who noticed ? Nobody at CA QA noticed ? Maybe I was imagining it.... ..... .. .. . ... ..

Anyway what's the deal with JHI.

If I understand correctly they fare well because they have a higher attack speed ?