Becoming a Vassel

**DukeICT** · 12-06-2006, 18:31

Long time Total war play, however I have never been much into the diplomacy part of Total War. I am playing as HRE on H/H and am currently in a war with Venice and Milan. Now I have been attached by the Danes and I don't have the time or resources to get into a long drawn out war with them. I have destroyed their to main armies but am having trouble getting them to become a vassel kingdom. I could get a ceasefire but I know they will just rebuild their forces and attack again soon. Are their any benefits to make another nation a vassel kingdom, and how do you accomplish this?

**Shahed** · 12-06-2006, 19:22

1. Kill their largest armies.
2. Besiege or take their largest cities.
3. Keep a lot of troops where they can see them.
4. Offer to give back the cities you took in exchange for vassalge.

There are many different ways (I suppose) of doing this. The way described above is how I do it, and it works. They hate you anyway though.

**Ethelred Unread** · 12-06-2006, 19:31

Hi,

Just a quick note on vassaling really, but I am playing on vh/vh grand camp as england and as time progressed was attacked by denmark.

Moved stacks towards Antwerp where the danes are, then french decided to attack Caen which had a couple of militia in it and a family member. Nightmare! So decided to move back to Caen with my Antwerp army to break the siege.

Now, during the Frenchies next go they send their princess to Caen, who enters diplomatic negotians with me (even though the siege is well underway) and asks me to become a Vassal. I counter this to say ok- for 2000 florins, then she counter offers 1200 florins for 10 turns!

I agree, more income for me, don't have to fight the French so concentrate on the Danes. Then later the Milanese come in and virtually destroy the French who leave Paris undefended... Well I think you can guess what happened then.

As in Rome, it seems that being someones Vassal is easier than the other way round!

**Shahed** · 12-06-2006, 19:36

Good Point ! It's not worth the bother even to vassal someone, they will backstab you anyway.

By the way what's the exact income you gain from having a vassal ?

**Bob the Insane** · 12-06-2006, 19:40

I wonder if making a faction a vassel factions as destroying it for the victory conditions?

I know the vassels lands will count towards your own for victory conditions however. Or your lands will count towards the Frenches number in the instance above.

I wondoer if you win the game as a vassel (short game anyway)? If the faction you are a vassel of is not one of the ones you need to destroy...

**Darth Nihilus** · 12-06-2006, 19:55

Bob, your vassal's land does count towards your land for the victory conditions.

**Captainrave** · 12-06-2006, 20:20

Originally Posted by Sinan

Good Point ! It's not worth the bother even to vassal someone, they will backstab you anyway.

By the way what's the exact income you gain from having a vassal ?

Totally not true...they will retreat back to their territory and only venture out for crusades.

Some people have also reported an exploit where you give the kingdom all your money to become a vassal...and next turn because you are their vassal they will give it back. This also works for buying all their regions (except their capital) after they are your vassal. These options are usually late game options since purchasing the vassal option takes about 1000000 florins and requires you to be alot more powerful.

**Ethelred Unread** · 12-06-2006, 20:37

I can't imagine that I'd ever have that much money, even in the late game, how do you go about earning that much?

**FactionHeir** · 12-06-2006, 20:40

Making someone a vassal (notice spelling) seems to be nigh on impossible in my VH campaign.
I had Byzantine down to one settlement which I had under siege at that time (Caffa, the one at the north coast of the Black Sea) and they only had their King (no heir) and a few troops inside. I marched in 3 full stack armies in that territory.
Now I send my 10 influence diplomat to their 0 charm princess and initiate diplomacy.
The relations are abysmal of course, at war for 25 turns.

Offering ceasefire + 100k florins + 3 russian settlements ->very demanding.
Above + half my european settlements -> balanced

For Vassal:
Demanding them to become a vassal + 100k florins + 80% of all my settlements (and had to be most expensive ones) -> balanced

They'd accept both of those balanced offers (normal accept, not happily)

I mean thats kind of an overkill though to make them a vassal if you give them just about everything you have...

Funny thing as an aside though: Offer them map info -> they reject and see you as neutral instead of receive enemy. Now demand them to become a vassal and offer map info in exchange -> very generous! but they'll just say that they aren't interested...

**Gorm** · 12-06-2006, 22:01

Originally Posted by Bob the Insane

I wonder if making a faction a vassel counters as destroying it for the victory conditions?

I found in my game as Spain that making the Moors a vassal did not make me win the game immediately. I still had to break the alliance (which is what vassalism effectively does with the opposing state) and lay siege to his last town to get the win.

**ScrapTower** · 12-06-2006, 22:42

Good thread... Can someone explain the benefits of having a vassal? Do they give you money? How much?

**Kobal2fr** · 12-06-2006, 22:59

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Making someone a vassal (notice spelling) seems to be nigh on impossible in my VH campaign.
SNIP
The relations are abysmal of course, at war for 25 turns.

That's it, right there. The "abysmal" thing.

As long as your relations with another country are abysmal, they become totally bonkers in negotiations, when you are the initiator. In exchange for the same thing, they want more, and more, and more, the worse your relations are. With a neutral faction, you can sell trade rights 1500 florins, with an abysmal one you better shell out 40+ and a couple provinces for the same trade rights, which benefit them as much as you in the first place !

It's also why ceasefires are absolutely impossible to get, even when you're totally steamrolling them - it's not that they don't want it, it's not that they're not desperate for one even, it's that the relations are abysmal, hence they expect a disproportionate amount of stuff in return, no matter what.

The problem here is that one turn of successful warfare on your part will send your relations from Perfect to Abysmal. They'll instantly forget whatever happened before, and act like you're THE REVILED ENEMY OF MY FATHERS, even when they were the one to attack in the first place.

An allied, two century-old friendship AI can declare war, send an army to siege a town of yours, relations will still be "Perfect" or "Friendly". If for some reason they lift the siege (your strong relief force is a turn away, somebody else attacked them...), relations don't change either, and it's still possible to negociate fairly, give a province, give money, whatever. But the second you sally and destroy the army, boom, Abysmal. Give 2 millions for a ceasefire. And good luck getting back to a mere "so-so" afterwards...

**Lochar** · 12-06-2006, 23:34

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

That's it, right there. The "abysmal" thing.

As long as your relations with another country are abysmal, they become totally bonkers in negotiations, when you are the initiator. In exchange for the same thing, they want more, and more, and more, the worse your relations are. With a neutral faction, you can sell trade rights 1500 florins, with an abysmal one you better shell out 40+ and a couple provinces for the same trade rights, which benefit them as much as you in the first place !

It's also why ceasefires are absolutely impossible to get, even when you're totally steamrolling them - it's not that they don't want it, it's not that they're not desperate for one even, it's that the relations are abysmal, hence they expect a disproportionate amount of stuff in return, no matter what.

The problem here is that one turn of successful warfare on your part will send your relations from Perfect to Abysmal. They'll instantly forget whatever happened before, and act like you're THE REVILED ENEMY OF MY FATHERS, even when they were the one to attack in the first place.

An allied, two century-old friendship AI can declare war, send an army to siege a town of yours, relations will still be "Perfect" or "Friendly". If for some reason they lift the siege (your strong relief force is a turn away, somebody else attacked them...), relations don't change either, and it's still possible to negociate fairly, give a province, give money, whatever. But the second you sally and destroy the army, boom, Abysmal. Give 2 millions for a ceasefire. And good luck getting back to a mere "so-so" afterwards...

This is my problem, I was at war with France for 50 turns, and the big problem is unless I AM at war with them I dont get the become vassal option, so its almost a catch 22. Make war lose relations, need to raise relations for them to become vassal, but can only offer this if at war.

And not to derail the thread too much but is it an instant losss to BECOME a vassal? I got offered this by the Mongols and was gonna save and say yes but somehow got distracted and never saved so now cant get this to occur again.

**FactionHeir** · 12-07-2006, 00:34

The problem with being at war and abysmal (what 90% of the cases are), ist that you canno get a higher standing with them unless you gift them regions, and even then it won't improve too greatly:
I gave them a region (Helsinki) for fun. Relations went from abysmal to amiable but I couldn't get any more negotiations through after: The AI was "annoyed" for some reason that they accepted my region gift ?

Next turn I try to offer a ceasefire, for huge costs (regions) which of course is not something i really needed as I might as well squash them. So I just loaded my old game and finished them off.

**pevergreen** · 12-07-2006, 00:53

I had a screw round game as HRE on VH/VH and Sicily, Milan and Venice alll 'owned' me.

As a side note, Denmark owned the Papal States...

I did cheat for 40 000 florins, next turn BANG 36 000 had gone! Plus sicily has 2 full stacks next to my capital, just waiting....

So being a vassal, you give excess money, Trade, alliance and military access both ways.

**Joshwa** · 12-07-2006, 21:14

As the Byzantines, the Venetians blockaded my ports, sent a few inneffectual attacks at me, and then demanded i become their vassal. I agreed, so that they would leave me in peace, and they started blockading my ports again the turn after anyway!