Imperial Diet

[AussieGiant]

Standing slowly the 4th Elector of House Austria composes himself for a moment:

Kaiser Heinrich, Prinz Henry, Dukes of the Realm, fellow electors,

Gazing out the great window above the heads of the assembled nobles, the 4th elector says absently

Attack Rome you say...

Very few things in life are absolute gentlemen, however, if we attack Rome, then this course of action will provide for some absolutes in our life time.

Raising his voice and beginning to pace in front of the Austrian benches the 4th Elector continues

First, WE WILL BE EXCOMMUNICATED...fact!

Second, our Reich and the people WE lead will question us and our actions...we will need to spend far more resources controlling our own population than we currently do....fact!!

Third, we will be surrounded by 7 Catholic nations of which only 1 is not able to attack us with the Pope’s backing. The military options open to our enemies will be unlimited. Are we really in a position to conduct a potential war on such a scale?

Fourth, our trade and current financial status will drop sharply.

The pacing continues, however his voice lowers to a normal level again

Without try to sound like a bore my lords, WHY are we considering attacking the Pope?

Forgive me if I am not overly impressed by the words of outrage and such. Whether we like it or not, the POPE is the POPE. Spitting in his face, taking his city, slapping his arse will not change that!!

To openly defy him has never brought ANY nation ANY benefits. Are we not able to learn from the past? Is anyone able to outline ONE benefit to this Diet?

I think it`s time gentlemen, to put aside our personal ambitions, our hidden agendas, our outrage and our egos and keep in mind the normal people of our realm, and THEIR condemnation of US if we were to take this course.

Stopping for the moment and standing quite still, the 4th Elector smiles to the gathered nobles

I personally think it's time we cease drinking the Absinth Duke Leopold has brought back from Prague...go outside and do one of the following things...or, both if they really take your fancy...

...strip yourselves naked, and have each of your page man throw a bucket of cold water on you from the battlements...or, go to the jousting range and have Helmut, our local jousting champion, slam his lance once or twice against your Great Helms, and NOOO, that’s NOT the great helm on your head gentlemen...I mean the OTHER great helm we all have!!

I say this my lords, because it’s that level of pain and suffering the people of our nation will surely feel if we allow our secular ambitions to convince us, that attacking Rome is in the best interests of this Reich and the people we have the privilege to govern.

I therefore second edicts 3.4, 3.6, 3.7 and Charter Amendment 3.3

My God rest our souls!!!

[OverKnight]

Otto looks tired. Over the course of the speeches calling for an assault on Rome he has sunk lower and lower in his chair. After hearing the speech of the newest member of the Diet, Otto seems to come to a decision. Clenching his jaw he rises to speak:

My lords, before I return to the topic that seems to have dominated this session let me propose a somewhat unrelated edict:

Edict 3.11: The Chancellor will endeavor to construct naval forces capable of blockades and transport of mid-sized armies in the Baltic and especially the Mediterranean. Dukes and Counts are encouraged by the Diet to build port facilities in their domains, if applicable.

What ever course we choose fellow electors, we are no longer an inland Empire. Our current and future foes will posses navies, and we must build one of our own for both offensive and defensive actions.


As much as I would like to leave this topic behind me forever, I must return to this Rome adventure.

Otto pauses, a picture of confliction, he takes a deep breath and speaks again:

I hope you understand, my fellow electors, that my opposition to seizing Rome and our subsequent excommunication stems from my opinion of what is best for the Reich at this time, and not any sort of regard for Pope Gregory himself. I respect the power of the office, not the occupant.

This reckless scheme would perhaps not fill me with so much dread if those who proposed it had a specific plan in mind for the aftermath. My Steward's thoughts on using a Crusade as cover for our actions are clever, but we do not know when this will occur. How long will we wait under Interdiction Maximillian?

What would we do after taking Rome and "deposing" the current Pope? We would still be excommunicated, we would still be at war with the Papal States and most likely a few other Catholic nations. We have no Cardinals among the Preferati, so we cannot guarantee a friendly replacement. What do you think would happen if a Milanese Cardinal was elevated to the throne of Peter!?

The next Pope would most likely still oppose our war with Milan and we would find ourselves back in a similar situation. So the way I see it is, we invade Rome, suffer excommunication, and possibly bring the combined forces of the Catholic world down on our Empire, and for what? Revenge against one man. . .one man. This is hubris.

So I ask you Kaiser Heinrich, Count Sigismund, and Steward Mandorf what do we do after you have had your vengeance? How will we restore our relations with the Church and our fellow Catholic nations? What will be the final price for your pound of flesh?

I await your answers.

But know this, no matter the outcome, I serve the Empire!

Otto sits, miserable and clearly drained.

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopold has been shaking his head to the speeches following his and now finally, after Otto von Kassel has spoken, a thin smile creeps on his features. His hand steepled in front of his face, his gaze travels to the mentioned persons, awaiting a response.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Thanks to the sterling efforts of Gunther of Eichstadt (dlain), a list of current edicts and ammendments has been posted at the front of the Diet:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...92&postcount=1

(I also note that I second Edicts 3.6 and 3.11).

The closing time for seconding edicts will be Thursday 9am UK time. There will then be a 24 hours period of voting.

[OverKnight]

Otto, his head in his hands, glances up and sees the smile on Duke Leopold's face. Trembling with rage, he leaps up, nearly knocking his desk over.

Ah, yes, I had almost forgotten! Duke Leopold please take my name off of edict 3.7! I will not be your catspaw! It's the same trick von Schusslen tried years ago. We agree on Rome and Milan, my lord, but not much else.

Otto sits again, rubbing his right temple and muttering to himself.

[TinCow]

(OOC: Gunther von Kastilien is Dutch_guy. Dlain is Otto von Kassel.)

Maximillian Mandorf meets Duke Leopold’s gaze, unblinking.

Excommunication…
Vengeance against one man…

These are statements of fear and submission. One the subject of excommunication, there are only two issues; our immortal souls and the consequences in this life. The former will not be imperiled, as Gregory is a False Pope, without the blessing of God. His words and deeds carry no influence in the Heavens. However, it is wise to take the latter into consideration before acting.

As has been stated, there will be turmoil within the Empire and without. We can certainly expect those who have fallen under the sway of the false Pope to cause trouble in our cities, but this is of little concern to us. Many of our provinces are castles, which will have no problems controlling such individuals. Our cities are for the most part extremely well governed and controlled. Few, likely none, would even require a reduction in taxes to keep the citizens content.

Of our neighbors, few have any real potential of harming us. Poland and Venice are our allies. They will not strike at us. Milan will soon be crushed no matter what. Denmark has little power to speak of and I am certain that the most noble House of Franconia could seize their lands in short order if called upon to do so. Despite all of the concerns raised over the many enemies that would attack us, there are really only two nations which have the potential to cause us problems: Hungary and France.

Our borders with France are minimal and they in turn share borders with 5 other nations, excluding ourselves. I find it hard to believe that they would choose to attack the strongest of their neighbors, given their situation. Hungary, however, is of legitimate concern. We have already seen their armies prowling around Vienna. It is clear that they desire the wealth of the Empire. I believe they will strike us no matter what we do. As such, moving against the Pope does not put us in any worse a situation than we are currently in.

On the contrary, I believe taking Rome now will be of great advantage to us. If we do not return the Papal throne to Imperial control, we will be bending knee to every whim of every Pope for the next thousand years! If the Pope were a properly ordained and appointed man, then we would have to respect his orders. Gregory is not such a man! He is invalid and his laws are invalid. He will do everything in his power to obstruct us and the rightful order and his successors will likely do the same.

If we move on Rome now, we will perhaps experience short-term difficulties, but in the long-term we will benefit the Empire. If we coordinate our assaults properly, Gregory’s army can be destroyed and Rome itself can be seized in a very short period of time. Once this is achieved, we can then create a new home for the Papacy in a place of our choosing. This will make the next Pope extremely grateful to us and put him physically within our control. Surely the Emperor will approve of his appointment beforehand, thus making his rulings valid law which we must obeyed. The Empire can then freely donate money to the Church knowing that it will be spend in God’s work rather than funding a minion of Satan.

As for where to locate the new Papacy… I would be willing to give up Nuremburg itself for the properly appointed Holy Father. Nuremburg is completely surrounded by the Empire, ensuring that our control over the Pope will never again be questioned. While Nuremburg is a beautiful city and a current financial center to our economy, it is landlocked and has limited trade potential in the long-run. Any loss of income from Nuremburg will surely be negligible in comparison to the prosperity we will gain from Rome itself.

I propose that we continue with the planned attack on Milan and wait to see if there is a call for Crusade from the Pope. If the Crusade is called, we should then immediately assault the Eternal City and the Pope’s forces with all available strength. If the call for Crusade does not come by the mid-term session, we can discuss whether or not to proceed at that point.

The coming years will likely result in many unpredictable events. I have been loathe to formalize this strategy into an Edict, but it appears that for clarity it might be necessary. I do not believe this Edict is necessary for this plan to succeed, but I shall propose it anyway to allow for proper discussion.

Edict 3.12: The Reich will immediately and aggressively attack Milan, ceasing the assault only under threat of immediate excommunication from Gregory. If a Crusade is called before the Diet session of 1140, the Reich will immediately and aggressively assault the Pope’s army, Rome, and any areas still under Milanese control. If a Crusade is not called before the Diet session of 1140, the assault on the Pope and Rome will be discussed again at that time.

Edict 3.13: If Rome is taken at any time during this Chancellorship, the Papacy will immediately be given a new home that is within Imperial control. In that event, an Emergency Session of the Diet will be called to determine which province is to be donated. As the Pope will then once again be approved by the Kaiser, regular funding will be properly given to the Church to allow it to continue God’s works.

Do not shy away from difficult times, my fellow noblemen. We will be opposed, to be sure, but we pursue a holy cause, ordained by God. Let us weather the difficulties so that we may restore Heaven’s influence on earth and benefit the Reich for centuries to come.

Mandorf crosses himself and sits down.

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopolds smile does not falter at the outburst of Otto von Kassel, but he can hardly maintain it throughout the length of Maximilan Mandorf's speech.

Very well then, I will rephrase Edict 3.7 to suit von Kassels wishes. Surely our next Chancellor can find another man that won't shirk at the prospect of combat.

While we're discussing other Edicts I can not agree with Edict 1.11. I see no reason why Austrian money should be wasted into some pity fleets as long as our holdings remain completely landlocked.

Austrian merchants have informed me that the profits we receive from our Silver mines surrounding Vienna could be greatly increased if we were to set some of our merchants on trading these ressources. They tell me that the initial investment of recruiting those men will break even around the end of the next Chancellors turn and will then start to generate profit.

I propose Edict 3.14:
Two merchants are to be trained in Vienna and set to trading the two Silver mines in the countryside surrounding Vienna.


With those formalities out of the way, I think it's time to move on to more pressing matters, concerning the warmongers amongst us. His gaze travels to Mandorf.

Your personal sentiments for Pope Gregory aside, I think your plans lack a certain element of foresight. Perhaps your rage against god's represantative on earth has blinded you to the possibilities the future has to offer. Surely if all went as you described the future would look most prosperous for us and the Reich. However your plans contain so many possibilities for faliure that I don't even know where to start.

First you expect the Pope to call some sort of crusade or another against the infidels? Then you propose that we stir the righteous zeal of our peasantry and nobles to have them embark with us on this noblest of endeavours just to lie every one of them in the face. For instead of utilizing their zeal against the heathens that trouble Jerusalem itself, you want them to fight against their fellow Christians? Have you no honour left in your soul, has your hatred for Pope Gregory withered all of it away?
Even if enough corrupted souls could be found to support your endeavour against Rome, don't you think the French, the English and even the Milanese will have stirred up their populace to follow Pope Gregory's call. Do you think those armies would stand idly by while you attack the city of Rome itself?
Even our closest allies will consider breaking our bonds, because once we're excommunicated our word will weigh less than a feather within Christian Europe. Do not discard the Venetians or Poles so lightly once Gregory has given them an opportunity to fight against infidels, not somewhere far away, but right at their doorstep. The same goes for the other countries whose power on the field you discarded so lightly.
Then you intend to slay Pope Gregory on the field of battle and take the city from his successor, who will then thankfully accept our hereditary lands. Do you really think he would be gullible enough to accept any land we offer him? The Milanese, the French, the Hungarians, they will topple over themselves in trying to be the first to give the Pope a new home from where he can continue his war against our Reich. What do we do then, my dear Mandorf?

What if every nation of Europe turns against us and the Pope is amongst them supporting their cause, while you have just lied to your Subordinates and thrown away their souls to purgery or worse?
Your revenge will be a short one, while all we have worked for so hard will be torn asunder by our enemies.
Your plan, and any plan that let's us suffer excommunication and even tries to attack Rome itself, is pure and outright folly! Every man with a sane mind should be able to see this!

I once again urge every Elector to support me in Edict 3.6 to avoid that the vainity and hatred of a few men, destroy what so many of us have worked so hard for during the last years!