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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Jay Walking?

    I don't understand the need to reign in where people cross the road. Surely one should be at liberty to use one's own initiative on where to cross?
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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    It really depends on where you live. In most Urban Cities in the US there has been a lot of accidents involving Jaywalkers, just out of sheer stupidity. Even if it was the pedestrians responsiblities, it sure puts a wreck on someones day if you run the person over. Most non urban places don't have jaywalking laws, and in fact it's the drivers responsibility to look for Pedestrians. *cough* Montana *cough*

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    The officer asked for identification. The professor asked for his, after which Officer Leonpacher told him he was under arrest and, the professor claims, kicked his legs from under him, pinned him to the ground and confiscated his box of peppermints.
    There you go. He was packing peppermints. Obviously a villain.
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Pedestrian crosses street, car swerves out of his way, hits other car/poodle/small child. Of course it's illegal. He probably actually got in trouble for sassing the police mind you.

    Article says nothing about cops beating him up

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    1000 post member club Member Quid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    Pedestrian crosses street, car swerves out of his way, hits poodle.
    That should be legal; even a requirement that carries lots of bonus points to advance to the next level...

    Ok, I am leaving...

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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    On a related note, if anyone ever chases you in Switzerland, just cross the road where there is no crossing. They will stand at the other side looking worried and confused, unable to follow.

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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    In many urban/suburban commercial areas, pedestrians are treated with suspicion here in the US. Most of these areas are built with cars in mind, not pedestrians, and trying to cross 4-lane roads, even at traffic lights, is a risky proposition. I've known several Brits visiting that have been stopped when trying to walk from their hotel to the strip mall across the street. It's just, odd-looking, ridiculous as that sounds. Around here, the only people you see on sidewalks have dogs or are jogging.

    Besides, nobody over here actually walks anywhere. We drive to the end of the driveway to get our paper in the morning. Those 2 long(er) dangly things below our waist are for pushing the pedals in the car. Everybody knows that!
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Welcome to ATL.


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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    So who asked him for his ID? The fat guy or one of the 7 uniformed police?


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    So who asked him for his ID? The fat guy or one of the 7 uniformed police?

    The bespectacled professor says he didn't realise the "rather intrusive young man" shouting that he shouldn't cross there was a policeman. "I thanked him for his advice and went on." The officer asked for identification. The professor asked for his, after which Officer Leonpacher told him he was under arrest and, the professor claims, kicked his legs from under him, pinned him to the ground and confiscated his box of peppermints.
    Given that the man is a university professor, I would expect him to be able to make the stunning leap of logic that any person dressed all in blue or black with a metal badge on their chest, a gun on their hip, and a nightstick and radio on their belt was probably a police officer. Since he was not able to identify the person asking him for ID as such, I am assuming the person wasn't in uniform.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Given that the man is a university professor, I would expect him to be able to make the stunning leap of logic that any person dressed all in blue or black with a metal badge on their chest, a gun on their hip, and a nightstick and radio on their belt was probably a police officer. Since he was not able to identify the person asking him for ID as such, I am assuming the person wasn't in uniform.
    Except that this professor clearly wasn't at a loss for words. If the man who detained him hadn't been in uniform at the time he was detained, don't you think he would have said so? He said "I didn't know he was a police officer". That covers a lot more ground.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Except that this professor clearly wasn't at a loss for words. If the man who detained him hadn't been in uniform at the time he was detained, don't you think he would have said so? He said "I didn't know he was a police officer". That covers a lot more ground.
    I can only go by what the article says, Don. It says that he didn't know the guy shouting at him then asking him for ID was a cop. That leads me to believe the cop wasn't in uniform.

    The cop asked him for ID, then the prof made the very reasonable (assuming the cop was not in uniform) request to see his first, at which point the cop put him on the ground and handcuffed him.

    Slice it any way you want, Don: while I certainly wouldn't call it police brutality, I would definitely say it's a case of a bully with a badge deciding to prove to everybody how big his penis is.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Well, perhaps you'd explain to me why if if it was a plain clothes policeman, or one off duty, the professor didn't actually say he was in street clothes?

    Also, I notice you sidestepped my question on the impartiality of the article. Do you really think the professor is giving us a 100% impartial, unbiased view? Because the BBC appears to...
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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    He may not of known the guy was a cop because he may have kept walking with his nose stuck up high, never looking back to see the chap. If his legs were kicked from under him it may have been because he wouldn't stop walking. He must've had that elitist-i'm-a-famous-historian attitude.

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho
    Jay Walking?

    I don't understand the need to reign in where people cross the road. Surely one should be at liberty to use one's own initiative on where to cross?

    And in response to this:

    jaywalking not only causes the obvious injuries becuase people, especially kids and ESPECIALLY teenagers are stupid and will try to cross when they shoudln't, but it also causes multiple car accidents when a person swerves to avoid little jimmy and instead takes out a couple of cars in the other lanes and/or people on the sidewalk.

    Some of the speed limits in urban eareas get as high as 55 on streets with population. While I would generally agree that a lower speed limit would do more to stave off the carnage, the pedestrain casualty rate is incredibly high even in low speed, densely populated areas like san fransisco and chicago.

    Crosswalks our a staple of our lives since we were little kids. After school we go to the crosswalk where the crossing guard stops traffic and lets all the kids cross at once. Care to guess what would happen if 100 1st graders were allowed just to cross willy nilly whenever they wanted?

    I can't speak for places like NYC, but in the midwest crosswalks and jaywalking laws are used more on the defensive/after-the-fact meter than offensively. I know of no one around here ever, ever getting a jaywalking ticket or write up. I do, however, know plenty of cases of pedestrians getting run over and the driver being cleared of all wrongdoing because the pedestrian chose to dart into the road rather than using the crosswalk located 75 feet away.

    There are simply too many cars on the road and too many things going on to have to pay attention to the guy walking on the curb and wondering if he's going to sprint in front of you
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...ng_in_atlanta/
    "At that point, he says the officer lost patience, kicked his legs from under him and held him down. Two other officers helped hold him down as he was arrested."

    Interesting quote; there were two officers immediately at the scene. Coupled with Xiahou's observations it makes me doubt the professor's story. But then, APD do have liberal use of force rules. I've recently heard that in Germany there are virtually no restrictions on the use of force and that people comply because they know just how far the police officers can go.
    Last edited by Vladimir; 01-11-2007 at 19:28.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    He was jaywalking to get into a busy convention? Sounds like he was trying to cut in line, everyone knows there are no cuts in ATL.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Fairness bids me to link to the police report, which contrary to a link I previously quoted from, states that it was a uniformed police officer.

    The police overreacted. But this professor does strike me as a belligerant arse. He may hold whatever opinion he wants on jaywalking, but if the law in some foreign country says you can't, than for bleeding's sake just abide by that.
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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    I don’t think the department approves of “moonlighting” and I think it is illegal for police to have some off duty jobs, like as a bouncer. I could be wrong.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Fairness bids me to link to the police report, which contrary to a link I previously quoted from, states that it was a uniformed police officer.

    The police overreacted. But this professor does strike me as a belligerant arse. He may hold whatever opinion he wants on jaywalking, but if the law in some foreign country says you can't, than for bleeding's sake just abide by that.
    Two wrongs don't make a right but sometimes they do make a hell of a story.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    which is probably why they are seen as desirable employees for other unofficial security jobs. However, one cannot simply take on a second job without officially requesting in writing to their department supervisor working that off duty job.


    but I find this incredible. The scope for conflicts of interest between the new employer and the public is immense and it is no good saying that it is checked by the department supervisor. Who is he working for in his spare time?
    I don’t think the department approves of “moonlighting” and I think it is illegal for police to have some off duty jobs, like as a bouncer. I could be wrong.
    Hence the written request requirement, and don't think it stops at a lower management position, you think some Facility Captain will risk his career by okaying an employment request that goes against strict Department guidelines? There are Department guidelines that apply, bar room bouncer, liquor store employee are a few of the definite no nos. Many off duty cops and some of my fellow corrections officers work the sports stadium security jobs, most just have self-employed businesses in the building trades, lawn care, car dealers, etc... The off duty jobs can't interfere, timewise, with ones primary job, any such problems that do arise you will be required to quit the off duty job or get fired. To me, the money gained from such a secondary job involving a security position is not worth the risk.
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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Many off duty cops and some of my fellow corrections officers work the sports stadium security jobs
    What do they do if their employers are flouting safety laws. Do they go and arrest the bosses or do they turn a blind eye? When working for a sports stadium, who decides what are the priorities for enforcement, the stadium bosses or the police officer? Do they concentrate on crowd control or stop this work to arrest people for breaking the law? As I said, the opportunity for conflicts of interest are huge.

    Facility Captain will risk his career by okaying an employment request that goes against strict Department guidelines?
    Unfortunately reduces, but does not remove the possibility of conflicts of interest or out and out corruption.

    most just have self-employed businesses in the building trades, lawn care, car dealers
    This is less problematic, especially if the work is done for friends and acquaintances and not people who turn out to be nephews of the local crime boss. This sort of thing does happen in the UK In the 70's when police pay was poor, it would have been very common amongst police constables with families who needed to make ends meet and the shift pattern made it easy to do a few days work on friends cars and gardens. Now pay is better, it happens less. Whilst open to abuse, this is not nearly as worrying as working for businessmen who may (even if most don't) take advantage.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

    Here's Professor Fernandez-Armesto's considered viewpoint on his experience. Try to read it all without frothing at the mouth.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Felipe Fernandez-Armesto: The accidental criminal

    Arrested, beaten and jailed by police in Atlanta for crossing a road in an illegal manner, the British historian and writer reflects on his shocking ordeal - and what it reveals about the US

    Published: 13 January 2007


    "No one truly knows a nation," said Nelson Mandela, "until one has been inside its gaols." Last week, after living in the USA for more than a year without understanding the country, I acquired - briefly - a gaolbird's authority. I can now share insights you can only get from being assaulted by the police and locked up for hours in the company of some of the most deprived and depraved dregs of the American underclass.

    For someone like me - a mild-mannered, middle-aged professor of scholarly proclivities, blameless habits, and frail physique - it was shocking, traumatising and deeply educational. It all started on my first morning in Atlanta, Georgia, where I was attending the annual conference of the American Historical Association. Unwittingly, I crossed a street at what I later learnt was an unauthorised crossing. I had seen plenty of pedestrians precede me. There was no traffic in sight and no danger to me or anyone else.

    Apparently, however, as I was later told, "jaywalking" is a criminal offence in the State of Georgia. But I had no idea I had done anything wrong.

    A young man in a bomber jacket accosted me, claiming to be a policeman, but with no visible evidence of his status. We got locked in mutual misunderstanding, demanding each other's ID. I mistook the normal attitude of an Atlanta cop for arrogance, aggression and menace. He, I suppose, mistook the normal demeanour of an ageing and old-fashioned European intellectual for prevarication or provocation.

    His behaviour baffled me even before he lost patience with me, kicked my legs from under me, knocked my glasses from my nose, wrestled me to the ground, and with the help of four or five other burly policemen who suddenly appeared on the scene, ripped my coat, scattered my books in the gutter, handcuffed me, and pinioned me painfully to the concrete.

    I was bundled into a filthy paddy-wagon with some rather unsavoury-looking fellow-prisoners and spent eight hours in the degrading, frightening environment of the downtown detention centre, with no humiliation spared: mugshot, fingerprinting, intrusive search, medical examination, and the frustration of understanding nothing: neither why I was there, nor how I might get out.

    Had I made it to my historical conference, I might have learnt about medieval pumpernickel-production or 17th-century star-gazing. Instead, I discovered a lot about contemporary America.

    First, I learnt that the Atlanta police are barbaric, brutal, and out of control. The violence I experienced was the worst of my sheltered life. Muggers who attacked me once near my home in Oxford were considerably more gentle with me than the Atlanta cops. Many fellow historians at the conference, who met me after my release, had witnessed the incident and told me how horrific they found it. Even had I really been a criminal, it would not have been necessary to treat me with such ferocity, as I am very obviously a slight and feeble person. But Atlanta's streets are some of the meanest in the world, and policing them must be a brutalising way of life.

    Once in gaol I discovered another, better side of Atlanta. The detention centre is weird - a kind of orderly pandemonium, a bedlam where madness is normal, so that nothing seems mad. It's windowless, filthy, and fetid, but strangely safe, insulated and unworldly: like Diogenes's barrel, a place of darkness conducive to thought - for there is nothing else to do in the longueurs between interrogations, examinations, and lectures from the sergeant in charge about the necessity of good behaviour.

    Some raffish underworld characters befriended me, but so did the detention centre personnel.

    In gaol, I saw none of the violence that typifies the streets. On the contrary, the staff treat everyone - including some of the most difficult, desperate, drunk, or drugged-out denizens of Atlanta's demi-monde - with impressive courtesy and professionalism. I began to suspect that some of the down-and-outs I shared space with had deliberately contrived to get arrested in order to escape from the streets into this peaceable world - swapping the arbitrary, dangerous jurisdiction of the cops for the humane and helpful supervision of the centre. Nelson Mandela, I think, was right to say that gaol is the best place to make judgements from because, "a nation should be judged not by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest." If Atlanta is representative, America, by that standard, comes out commendably well.

    I then met the best of America when I appeared in court. Everyone, including the judge himself and the wonderful vice-president of the American Historical Association, who accompanied me to lend moral support, told me to get counsel to represent me. A lawyer I had consulted hurriedly that morning had advised me to sue the city. But I had no stomach for such a hostile and elaborate strategy. Instead, I watched Judge Jackson at work. He had 117 cases to try that day. He handled them with unfailing compassion, common sense and good humour.

    I noticed that my charge as the judge read it - "failing to obey a police officer and obstructing the police" - did not match the semi-literate scrawl the accusing officer had scribbled on my citation: so I reckoned that, if necessary, I could get the charges dismissed on those grounds alone. Meanwhile, I simply appealed to the wisdom and mercy of the judge.

    It only took him a few minutes to realise that I was the victim, not the culprit. The prosecutors withdrew the charges. The judge then proclaimed my freedom with kindly enthusiasm and detained me for nothing more grievous than a few minutes' chat about his reminiscences of the Old Bailey.

    The first lesson is obvious. The city authorities of Atlanta need to re-educate their police. I can understand why some officers behave irrationally and unpredictably. Much of the downtown environment in their city is hideous - inoffensive to the eye only when shrouded by the often-prevailing fog. The sidewalks are thronged with beggars who can turn nasty at night. The crime rate is fearful.

    The result is that the police are nervy, jumpy, short-fused, and lacking in restraint, patience or forbearance. But witnesses tell me that up to 10 officers took part in the assault on me. This is evidence not only of excessive zeal, but of seriously warped priorities. In a city notorious for rape, murder and mayhem the police should have better things to do than persecute jaywalkers or harry an impeccable, feeble foreigner.

    Moreover, Atlanta depends on its convention trade. The way the conventions centre is designed is extremely practical. There is plenty of good, reasonably priced accommodation. But if Atlanta continues to accumulate a reputation for police frenzy and hostility to visitors, the economy will crumble.

    At least, the police need to be told to exercise forbearance with outsiders - especially foreigners - who may not understand the peculiarities of local custom and law.

    But, at the risk of projecting my own limited experience on to a screen so vast that the effect seems blurred, I see bigger issues at stake: issues for America; issues for the world. I found that in Atlanta the civilisation of the gaol and the courts contrasted with the savagery of the police and the streets. This is a typical American contrast. The executive arm of government tends to be dumb, insensitive, violent and dangerous. The judiciary is the citizen's vital guarantee of peace and liberty.

    I became a sort of exemplar in miniature of a classic American dilemma: the "balance of the constitution", as Americans call it, between executive power and judicial oversight.

    I have long known, as any reasonable person must, that the courts are the citizen's only protection against a rogue executive and rationally uncontrolled security forces.

    Though my own misadventure was trivial and - in perspective - laughable, it resembles what is happening to the world in the era of George W Bush. The planet is policed by a violent, arbitrary, stupid, and dangerous force.

    Within the USA, the courts struggle to maintain individual rights under the bludgeons of the "war on terror", defending Guantanamo victims and striving to curb the excesses of the system. We need global institutions of justice, and judges of Judge Jackson's level of humanity and wisdom, to help protect the world.

    I feel happy and privileged to be able to live and work in the United States. On the whole, in my work as an historian, I have argued consistently that America has had a benign influence on the world. The growth of anti-Americanism fills me with despair, as I see ordinary, decent, generous Americans getting the blame abroad for the follies of the American government and the crudities of the American image.

    I hope that if some good ensues from my horrific misfortune, it will include more future security from police misconduct for visitors in Atlanta, and more awareness in the world of some of the virtues - as well as some of the vices - of US life.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 01-13-2007 at 17:51.
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