Freedom Hating Brit Beaten up by US Cops for Crossing Road

[Idaho]

Jay Walking?

I don't understand the need to reign in where people cross the road. Surely one should be at liberty to use one's own initiative on where to cross?

[Samurai Waki]

It really depends on where you live. In most Urban Cities in the US there has been a lot of accidents involving Jaywalkers, just out of sheer stupidity. Even if it was the pedestrians responsiblities, it sure puts a wreck on someones day if you run the person over. Most non urban places don't have jaywalking laws, and in fact it's the drivers responsibility to look for Pedestrians. *cough* Montana *cough*

[English assassin]

The officer asked for identification. The professor asked for his, after which Officer Leonpacher told him he was under arrest and, the professor claims, kicked his legs from under him, pinned him to the ground and confiscated his box of peppermints.

There you go. He was packing peppermints. Obviously a villain.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Pedestrian crosses street, car swerves out of his way, hits other car/poodle/small child. Of course it's illegal. He probably actually got in trouble for sassing the police mind you.

Article says nothing about cops beating him up

[Quid]

Pedestrian crosses street, car swerves out of his way, hits poodle.

That should be legal; even a requirement that carries lots of bonus points to advance to the next level...

Ok, I am leaving...

Quid

[BDC]

On a related note, if anyone ever chases you in Switzerland, just cross the road where there is no crossing. They will stand at the other side looking worried and confused, unable to follow.

[Somebody Else]

On a related note, if anyone ever chases you in Switzerland, just cross the road where there is no crossing. They will stand at the other side looking worried and confused, unable to follow.

But then they'll shoot you with the gun kept under every Swiss bed.

[drone]

In many urban/suburban commercial areas, pedestrians are treated with suspicion here in the US. Most of these areas are built with cars in mind, not pedestrians, and trying to cross 4-lane roads, even at traffic lights, is a risky proposition. I've known several Brits visiting that have been stopped when trying to walk from their hotel to the strip mall across the street. It's just, odd-looking, ridiculous as that sounds. Around here, the only people you see on sidewalks have dogs or are jogging.

Besides, nobody over here actually walks anywhere. We drive to the end of the driveway to get our paper in the morning. Those 2 long(er) dangly things below our waist are for pushing the pedals in the car. Everybody knows that!

[Vladimir]

Welcome to ATL.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Felipe Fernandez-Armesto eh? Well how dare that -possibly illegal! - hispanic try and ask a cop in civilian clothes for identification....

Silly police brutality this.


Also, I'd say this is almost as bad as that Freedom Hating Brazilian Shot by UK Cops for Taking the Tube.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Cheeky monkeys would be wise to comply with a police officer's reasonable request. It's generally accepted that to get respect, one must give some respect.
Ignoring/dismissing a person in a police uniform, refusing to show some ID and talking/acting belligerently might impress his colleagues, but is not a very smart way to handle a simple misunderstanding.

I guess the "Ugly American" overbroad stereotype isn't mutually exclusive to Americans is it.

Nice headline btw.

[Don Corleone]

Oops, duplicate post.

[Don Corleone]

Brutality?

First, it's a common scam by grifters in America to get hit by a car,then sue. As most American jurisdictions have a rule that the motor vehicle operator is always responsible for avoiding the pedestrian, regardless of the conditions, the only way for drivers to have a chance is to enforce jay-walking rules.

Second, he didn't get beaten. He got arrested for mouthing off to the cops. I'm sorry, maybe we're a little rougher over here, but our police don't simpishly beg for you to comply. You do, or you get cuffed and stuffed.

I do wish to note the following: Many of you hold the BBC up as a highly respectable, objective newspaper (bullocks, I say) . Yet, they didn't even make an effort to contact the Atlanta police department regarding the story. Biased, much?

[Goofball]

Cheeky monkeys would be wise to comply with a police officer's reasonable request. It's generally accepted that to get respect, one must give some respect.
Ignoring/dismissing a person in a police uniform, refusing to show some ID and talking/acting belligerently might impress his colleagues, but is not a very smart way to handle a simple misunderstanding.

The wording in the article leads me to believe that the officer that asked him for ID wasn't in uniform.

If some stranger ever came up to me wearing civilian clothes and demanded to see my ID, my response would be considerably less polite than simply asking to see his first.

And as far as I understand the law (which admittedly is not a great deal), if he refused identify himself then tried to physically restrain me, I would not be held responsible for the bloody nose and sore genital region he would most surely receive.

[Big_John]

he should have known better than to be british.

[Vladimir]

So who asked him for his ID? The fat guy or one of the 7 uniformed police?

[Goofball]

So who asked him for his ID? The fat guy or one of the 7 uniformed police?

The bespectacled professor says he didn't realise the "rather intrusive young man" shouting that he shouldn't cross there was a policeman. "I thanked him for his advice and went on." The officer asked for identification. The professor asked for his, after which Officer Leonpacher told him he was under arrest and, the professor claims, kicked his legs from under him, pinned him to the ground and confiscated his box of peppermints.

Given that the man is a university professor, I would expect him to be able to make the stunning leap of logic that any person dressed all in blue or black with a metal badge on their chest, a gun on their hip, and a nightstick and radio on their belt was probably a police officer. Since he was not able to identify the person asking him for ID as such, I am assuming the person wasn't in uniform.

[Don Corleone]

Given that the man is a university professor, I would expect him to be able to make the stunning leap of logic that any person dressed all in blue or black with a metal badge on their chest, a gun on their hip, and a nightstick and radio on their belt was probably a police officer. Since he was not able to identify the person asking him for ID as such, I am assuming the person wasn't in uniform.

Except that this professor clearly wasn't at a loss for words. If the man who detained him hadn't been in uniform at the time he was detained, don't you think he would have said so? He said "I didn't know he was a police officer". That covers a lot more ground.

[Goofball]

Except that this professor clearly wasn't at a loss for words. If the man who detained him hadn't been in uniform at the time he was detained, don't you think he would have said so? He said "I didn't know he was a police officer". That covers a lot more ground.

I can only go by what the article says, Don. It says that he didn't know the guy shouting at him then asking him for ID was a cop. That leads me to believe the cop wasn't in uniform.

The cop asked him for ID, then the prof made the very reasonable (assuming the cop was not in uniform) request to see his first, at which point the cop put him on the ground and handcuffed him.

Slice it any way you want, Don: while I certainly wouldn't call it police brutality, I would definitely say it's a case of a bully with a badge deciding to prove to everybody how big his penis is.

[Don Corleone]

Well, perhaps you'd explain to me why if if it was a plain clothes policeman, or one off duty, the professor didn't actually say he was in street clothes?

Also, I notice you sidestepped my question on the impartiality of the article. Do you really think the professor is giving us a 100% impartial, unbiased view? Because the BBC appears to...

[Xiahou]

The wording in the article leads me to believe that the officer that asked him for ID wasn't in uniform.

If some stranger ever came up to me wearing civilian clothes and demanded to see my ID, my response would be considerably less polite than simply asking to see his first.

And as far as I understand the law (which admittedly is not a great deal), if he refused identify himself then tried to physically restrain me, I would not be held responsible for the bloody nose and sore genital region he would most surely receive.

So, Atlanta PD is using plainclothes detectives to enforce jaywalking laws now? I think it's just as likely that the good professor figured he was too important to have to listen to an "intrusive young man" and ignored him after making his "thanks for the advice" smart ass remark.

They overreacted, as police often do, but I don't think it was brutality.

[Major Robert Dump]

He may not of known the guy was a cop because he may have kept walking with his nose stuck up high, never looking back to see the chap. If his legs were kicked from under him it may have been because he wouldn't stop walking. He must've had that elitist-i'm-a-famous-historian attitude.

He's lucky he wasn't shot 57 times and sodomized with a plunger.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Plainclothes policemen identify themselves as such when effecting an arrest, it's department procedure and the law. This incident occured on a busy street during the day, plenty of witnesses about. It's not like he was challenged on a dark lonely street where one might reasonably be suspicious of foul play. So using that logic doesn't pass muster.
Simply showing his ID, and respectfully explaining he was a vistor from another country and was unaware of his misdemeanor, the cop would have most likely let him go. Plainclothes cops aren't usually in the habit of writing tickets for minor violations of traffic law. The paperwork involved in writing tickets is considered beneath the duties of these undercover investigators , they handle much more serious crimes than that.
My advice, even if the cop is totally wrong, don't resist. Nobody gets hurt and you'll still win. Unless you enjoy the pain that is, hell, I know a few inmates who consider fighting with staff to be their recreation.

He's lucky he wasn't shot 57 times and sodomized with a plunger

That's by special request,only.

[English assassin]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...ng_in_atlanta/

"When I questioned who he was he said something to the effect of 'When I give you an order, you obey it,'" Fernandez-Armesto said. "I asked him what his authority was because I didn't see a badge. Where I'm from, you don't associate young gentlemen in bomber jackets with the police. But he was extremely upset I had questioned his bona fides."

But between you and me I dare say he probably could have been nicer about it. (F F-A I mean)

My advice, even if the cop is totally wrong, don't resist. Nobody gets hurt and you'll still win.

This is good advice even in the UK. Though they may shoot you repeatedly in the head even so.

[Major Robert Dump]

Jay Walking?

I don't understand the need to reign in where people cross the road. Surely one should be at liberty to use one's own initiative on where to cross?

And in response to this:

jaywalking not only causes the obvious injuries becuase people, especially kids and ESPECIALLY teenagers are stupid and will try to cross when they shoudln't, but it also causes multiple car accidents when a person swerves to avoid little jimmy and instead takes out a couple of cars in the other lanes and/or people on the sidewalk.

Some of the speed limits in urban eareas get as high as 55 on streets with population. While I would generally agree that a lower speed limit would do more to stave off the carnage, the pedestrain casualty rate is incredibly high even in low speed, densely populated areas like san fransisco and chicago.

Crosswalks our a staple of our lives since we were little kids. After school we go to the crosswalk where the crossing guard stops traffic and lets all the kids cross at once. Care to guess what would happen if 100 1st graders were allowed just to cross willy nilly whenever they wanted?

I can't speak for places like NYC, but in the midwest crosswalks and jaywalking laws are used more on the defensive/after-the-fact meter than offensively. I know of no one around here ever, ever getting a jaywalking ticket or write up. I do, however, know plenty of cases of pedestrians getting run over and the driver being cleared of all wrongdoing because the pedestrian chose to dart into the road rather than using the crosswalk located 75 feet away.

There are simply too many cars on the road and too many things going on to have to pay attention to the guy walking on the curb and wondering if he's going to sprint in front of you

[Goofball]

*sigh*

This is a response to:

Plainclothes policemen identify themselves as such when effecting an arrest, it's department procedure and the law. This incident occured on a busy street during the day, plenty of witnesses about. It's not like he was challenged on a dark lonely street where one might reasonably be suspicious of foul play. So using that logic doesn't pass muster.
Simply showing his ID, and respectfully explaining he was a vistor from another country and was unaware of his misdemeanor, the cop would have most likely let him go. Plainclothes cops aren't usually in the habit of writing tickets for minor violations of traffic law. The paperwork involved in writing tickets is considered beneath the duties of these undercover investigators , they handle much more serious crimes than that.
My advice, even if the cop is totally wrong, don't resist. Nobody gets hurt and you'll still win. Unless you enjoy the pain that is, hell, I know a few inmates who consider fighting with staff to be their recreation.

and

So, Atlanta PD is using plainclothes detectives to enforce jaywalking laws now? I think it's just as likely that the good professor figured he was too important to have to listen to an "intrusive young man" and ignored him after making his "thanks for the advice" smart ass remark.

They overreacted, as police often do, but I don't think it was brutality.

and

Well, perhaps you'd explain to me why if if it was a plain clothes policeman, or one off duty, the professor didn't actually say he was in street clothes?

Also, I notice you sidestepped my question on the impartiality of the article. Do you really think the professor is giving us a 100% impartial, unbiased view? Because the BBC appears to...

Again boys, I am assuming that the cop in question wasn't in uniform. I make this assumption because:

1) The prof said he didn't know he was a cop, and police uniforms are pretty much universally identifiable by anybody who has lived in a western democracy and reached the age of 3 years old
2) In the photo, there is an individual that appears to be a police officer (because he is standing with the police, inside the police tape, and at this point in time appears to have some sort of badge hanging from the breast pocket of his suit)
3) The judge immediately threw out the case and the prof was released without charges.

But whatever. I can see how my logic is full of gaping holes...

Yes, the prof may be lieing, the BBC may be part of the International Conspiracy to Make American Cops Look Dumb, and the prof's breath mints may in fact have been condensed anthrax tablets.

But it is impossible to determine any of that from the article.

How about this:

I concede that if my assumption is wrong, and the cop was in fact in uniform, then the prof deserved to be arrested for being a smartass and failing to comply with lawful civil authority.

In return, you three concede that if my assumption is correct, and the cop neither identified himself nor was wearing a uniform, then the cop's actions were out of line and the whole incident could have been prevented if he had simply produced his badge.

Oh yeah, and STOP BEING SO WORRIED THAT I AM TRYING TO SHOW WHAT IDIOTS YOU AMERICANS ARE!

I'm not.

Assuming he was not in uniform, the actions taked by the cop were IMO over the top, no matter which flag he happens to pledge allegiance to.

[Vladimir]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...ng_in_atlanta/
"At that point, he says the officer lost patience, kicked his legs from under him and held him down. Two other officers helped hold him down as he was arrested."

Interesting quote; there were two officers immediately at the scene. Coupled with Xiahou's observations it makes me doubt the professor's story. But then, APD do have liberal use of force rules. I've recently heard that in Germany there are virtually no restrictions on the use of force and that people comply because they know just how far the police officers can go.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Assuming he was not in uniform, the actions taked by the cop were IMO over the top, no matter which flag he happens to pledge allegiance to.

Which is why I stated:

My advice, even if the cop is totally wrong, don't resist. Nobody gets hurt and you'll still win.

Cops are subject to the same human frailties as the rest of us. They're good ones and bad, the same as any group of people. If one feels they are being unjustly detained, arrested, wronged in some way; the best and safest course of action is not to resist. You'll get your day in court.

Whether one is unjustly arrested or not, resisting arrest IS illegal.

[yesdachi]

He was jaywalking to get into a busy convention? Sounds like he was trying to cut in line, everyone knows there are no cuts in ATL.

[Goofball]

Assuming he was not in uniform, the actions taked by the cop were IMO over the top, no matter which flag he happens to pledge allegiance to.

Which is why I stated:

My advice, even if the cop is totally wrong, don't resist. Nobody gets hurt and you'll still win.

Cops are subject to the same human frailties as the rest of us. They're good ones and bad, the same as any group of people. If one feels they are being unjustly detained, arrested, wronged in some way; the best and safest course of action is not to resist. You'll get your day in court.

Whether one is unjustly arrested or not, resisting arrest IS illegal.

If a cop is not in uniform, how are we to know he is a cop and that we might "get hurt?"

Are you honestly telling me that if some guy in a bomber jacket yells at you, then asks you for ID, you would just hand it over without question? Without so much as asking "Oh, are you a policeman?"

Resisting arrest is only illegal if the person making the rest is identifiable or identifies himself as a lawful authority.

I'm sure you've seen T.J. Hooker. Why do you think he always yelled "Freeze! Police!" before busting a cap in some lowlife drugdealer's a$$?