$27 Million Evolution-Debunking Museum To Open

[Rodion Romanovich]

Finally, some good news in the headlines.

I hope they make this into a huge nationwide chain of museums.

I bolded part of the article that shows - despite the many rhetoric-based postings that often appear on this site with fabricated, low and inaccurate numbers - many more Americans are smart enough to not believe in the nonsense that is "evolution" than are often given credit for.

I say 50% not believing in the evolution crap that is shoved down their throats constantly in public schools and the media is a pretty good number seeing as reality does not receive the same push of constant propaganda to infest their minds.

Very disturbing how they had to hire explosive-sniffing dogs and extra security to prepare against the atheist/secularist/humanist zealot terrorists who have threatened them.

At least we "atheist/secularist/humanist zealot terrorists" aren't killing Christians in inquisition courts, burning them at the stake, forcibly converting them to our beliefs on the threat of beheading, or taking out huge "agnosticism/atheism taxes". Instead, we let you freely express your ideas, build your temples freely, and now also a monumental museum for your religion.

I think this is yet another beautiful example of how the agnostic/atheistic tolerance and enlightenment that begun in the 18th century allows minorities with views contrary to that of the majority (which today happens to be agnosticism and atheism) to express their ideas freely and openly, and be respected for it! I hope all people who visit this museum enjoy it and remember that it is a result of the victory of the free choice over inquisition, crusades, witch burning, forced conversions and high church taxes. Whether you're religious or not, this is worth celebrating! Because today we can make our own choice - whether it is agnosticism, atheism or religion!

[KukriKhan]

If a "Museum" is a Muse-house, or a place to store and display objects meant to inspire man-thought, I don't understand the objections to this one being established - unless we think that anything less than the Louvre, or without pillars, arches, and marble cannot be a museum.

There's all kinds of museums in the US, from the famous Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, to the less-famous UFO Museum in Roswell, New Mexico. There's even a Menstruation Museum in Maryland, devoted to the plusses and minusses of that biological function.

All have an "agenda" (they would use the word "theme"), and seek to inpire thought on their subject(s). Most were started by individuals or groups, and are run on a non-profit basis. What is different about this one?

If what it inspires is derision, contempt, and a closer reaffirmation of one's own beliefs, I submit that the viewer's/thinker's mind may not be as open to new data as he asserts. One would think that at the very least, a non-believer would find entertainment value, or some appreciation for the presentation.

By golly, that almost qualifies as a rant. Sorry.

Do please go on about how carnivorous behavior relates to the opening of a new museum.

[English assassin]

Although I largely agree with the post above, (with the caveat that the world probably does not need a hagiographic Museum of Fascist thought, and so there must be a line somewhere, and nonsense might be on the wrong side of the line too), I don't agree with this:

If what it inspires is derision, contempt, and a closer reaffirmation of one's own beliefs, I submit that the viewer's/thinker's mind may not be as open to new data as he asserts.

Its simply not possible to be open minded to every single bit of bubble-headed nonsense that someone with $27 million to blow might advocate. IMHO its perfectly reasonable, to take an example, to take biology A level, and a degree in biochemistry, and say that yeah, we looked pretty hard at the evidence for speciation by natural and sexual selection, that evidence entirely consistent with those theories was there in abundance, and that henceforth no further debate will be entered into. There is no "debate", any more than there is debate that water is wet. If the lead paper in Nature is ever "Darwin was Wrong: Adam's Skeleton found; one rib missing" then I will happily reconsider.

This isn't being closed minded, its simply prioritising all too finite mental resources.

[Navaros]

People who are not grounded in reality.

How is a cat killing a rodent, a brutal butchering of a lower sentient life form?

How is a cat killing a rodent for food something to be horrified over? How is butchering a cow for its beef something to be horrified over?


Its part of the natural cycle - something that God himself put in place.

Killing other sentient life forms is horrifyingly sick and a disgusting perversion of natural order. What gives one life form the moral right to butcher another just because it is hungry? Reasonably, there is none. But we live in a perverse world where this has become "normal". Still, despite it's "normality", a wise man can see the sickness of it all.

God did not create this cycle. God created perfect peace and harmony. It is due to Adam and Eve allowing Satan to corrupt the natural order that the world became perverse and the butchering of other life forms became "normal", amongst all the other evils in the world.

From the posts in this thread of many who do not understand these concepts I can say a trip to the creation Museum would be great for explaining all of this much better than I could.

[Watchman]

Excuse me, but where exactly do lifeforms inherently incapable of all and every form of moral choice and decision become concerned with "the moral right to butcher another just because it is hungry" to begin with ? Cows are biologically programmed to eat grass whe hungry, cats to hunt and kill mice; neither has the slightest choice in the matter.

Whether this is due to God having made them that way or some more complicated causes is irrelevant here; the point is that "morals", a singularly human issue, have no bearing on the matter at all.

And one might ask why the heck God made carnivores to begin with if them killing other animals for food was not part of the original design specs in the first place, anyway... Needle-like teeth and short intestine aren't exactly the equipement for subsisting on plants you know.


That aside, I've no issue with a bunch of Creationists with too much money making up such a museum per ce. I merely reserve the right to dispute everything they stand for and claim at every opportunity.

[Redleg]

Killing other sentient life forms is horrifyingly sick and a disgusting perversion of natural order. What gives one life form the moral right to butcher another just because it is hungry? Reasonably, there is none. But we live in a perverse world where this has become "normal". Still, despite it's "normality", a wise man can see the sickness of it all.

Are you then an eater of only Plants? Because if you eat any form of meat you are just another hypocrit. Reason has one look at the bodies and abilities of the life forms involved. Cats have nice sharp teeth and claws for a reason. Man's teeth have the ability to grind and tear for a reason.

God did not create this cycle. God created perfect peace and harmony. It is due to Adam and Eve allowing Satan to corrupt the natural order that the world became perverse and the butchering of other life forms became "normal", amongst all the other evils in the world.

I suggest you read your bible a little more. This contradicts several passages in the Bible, especially Genesis Chapter 1 versus 28-31

28 And God blessed them, Gen. 5.1, 2 and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I await an answer that actually makes sense versus your last attempt.

From the posts in this thread of many who do not understand these concepts I can say a trip to the creation Museum would be great for explaining all of this much better than I could.

I see no need to go to such a muesem that is actually advocating hypocrisy versus enlightenment.

[Navaros]

Are you then an eater of only Plants? Because if you eat any form of meat you are just another hypocrit. Reason has one look at the bodies and abilities of the life forms involved. Cats have nice sharp teeth and claws for a reason. Man's teeth have the ability to grind and tear for a reason.



I suggest you read your bible a little more. This contradicts several passages in the Bible, especially Genesis Chapter 1 versus 28-31

I don't only eat Plants, and I admit I'm a product of a perverse world and the fall of Adam and Eve has screwed me up just like it screwed up every human. But, at least I can have the moral sense to think about the butchering and realize the sickness of it. I'm sure most people wouldn't be so "fine and dandy" about the butchering of other life forms if they had to do it personally every day, because to be distant from it they can put it "out of sight, out of mind" to large degree. But being put to it directly would oftentimes help the sickness dawn on one who can't realize it otherwise. A innate feeling of disgust would take over, because there remains in man the remembrance of a better natural order.

What I said does not contradict anything in the Bible. "Have Dominion over" does not equal "go butcher any life whenever you feel like it". Those verses you quote said that God gave plants and fruit as food for all life (verses 29 and 30).

It should also be noted that when corruption entered the world, it changed everything. Cats and dinosaurs and man may very well not have been designed as mankind now understand them to exist. Rather, they may very well have devolved into their current forms when corruption entered the world.

[Watchman]

That does not compute. Do you mean to say the (supposedly benign) omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent Creator was unable to prevent it ? The notion is incoherent. To argue that He decided to change the matters after a couple of dumb and easily impressionable kids ate a fruit He left sitting well within reach, and might as well have written Eat Me on, and did the nasty would at least make some sense - although it would smack of a total setup and/or hardcore pettiness.

I can understand the idea of changing Adam and Eve as a punishement, but why all the rest of the animals...?

[Ronin]

It should also be noted that when corruption entered the world, it changed everything. Cats and dinosaurs and man may very well not have been designed as mankind now understand them to exist. Rather, they may very well have devolved into their current forms when corruption entered the world.

wait a minute......HOLD THE PRESSES!!!!

are you actually suggesting that these animals might not exist in the same shape as they did at the time your God created them?(10 000 years ago give or take 4.5 billion years)
Would that go to mean that these animals....somehow.....*looks around nervously* (dare I say it? ) .....Evolved?

ok...now this is getting TOO weird! Who are you mister and how did you hack into Navaros´s account???

[Redleg]

I don't only eat Plants, and I admit I'm a product of a perverse world and the fall of Adam and Eve has screwed me up just like it screwed up every human.

Then claim the title of hypocrit, and remember what Jesus stated about hypocrits.

But, at least I can have the moral sense to think about the butchering and realize the sickness of it. I'm sure most people wouldn't be so "fine and dandy" about the butchering of other life forms if they had to do it personally every day, because to be distant from it they can put it "out of sight, out of mind" to large degree. But being put to it directly would oftentimes help the sickness dawn on one who can't realize it otherwise. A innate feeling of disgust would take over, because there remains in man the remembrance of a better natural order.

I don't believe this in the slightest. I grew up on the farm, and have butchered plenty of animals. Never feeling sick about it nor disgust at the necessarity that requires that the human body requires protein in order to grow. I viewed the death and butchering of an animal as a necessity to survival. Should one feel guilty about survival? That runs counter to the word of God as stated in the text of the Holy Bible. Nor does it state anywhere in the Holy Bible, King James version anything remotely what you are claiming in either of your last two posts.

What I said does not contradict anything in the Bible. "Have Dominion over" does not equal "go butcher any life whenever you feel like it". Those verses you quote said that God gave plants and fruit as food for all life (verses 29 and 30).

Read a little deeper, remember that in the bible it also talks about fish as food. What did God provide Moses and the Jews for food? Here is the relative biblical passage.

12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.

13 ¶ And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

Nor did I say "butcher any life whenever you feel like it," it seems your faced with the dilemina of your own making that you feel the need to change my statement to be somthing not in evidence. I find that rather interesting and very amusing as well.

It should also be noted that when corruption entered the world, it changed everything. Cats and dinosaurs and man may very well not have been designed as mankind now understand them to exist. Rather, they may very well have devolved into their current forms when corruption entered the world.

And maybe attempts at literial translations of the bible demonstrate that man has missed the word of God because of man's own corruption.

[Redleg]

wait a minute......HOLD THE PRESSES!!!!

are you actually suggesting that these animals might not exist in the same shape as they did at the time your God created them?(10 000 years ago give or take 4.5 billion years)
Would that go to mean that these animals....somehow.....*looks around nervously* (dare I say it? ) .....Evolved?
:

Yes indeed. Isn't rather amusing?

[Watchman]

Humans also seem to have gotten by right fine for millenia killing animals large and small for sustenance. Including ones they've practically raised into full size from infancy.

If present-day people had to butcher their own meat most would doubtless get a little queasy. Nothing odd about that, as it'd be an entirely new thing to them and gory to boot. I'm guessing it'd take them round two days, or until they get really hungry, to get over virtually all such qualms however.

[Navaros]

Would that go to mean that these animals....somehow.....*looks around nervously* (dare I say it? ) .....Evolved?

No, it means originally all creations were perfect, immortal, and didn't kill each other. After Adam and Eve and Satan, brought corruption into the world, God cursed the world and everything devolved into something much worse.


Comparing butchering animals before the world was corrupted and after the world was corrupted is apples and oranges.

[Redleg]

No, it means originally all creations were perfect, immortal, and didn't kill each other. After Adam and Eve and Satan, brought corruption into the world, God cursed the world and everything devolved into something much worse.

The literial translation of the bible doesn't even say anything about devolving animals. It only talks about cursing man.

9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, 2 Cor. 11.3 and I did eat.

14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent,
Because thou hast done this,
thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field;
upon thy belly shalt thou go,
and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.


16 Unto the woman he said,
I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;
in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;
and thy desire shall be to thy husband,
and he shall rule over thee.


17 And unto Adam he said,
Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree,
of which I commanded thee, saying,
Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake;
in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;


18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; Heb. 6.8
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field:


19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken:
for dust thou art,and unto dust shalt thou return.


20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; 3 because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, Rev. 22.14 and eat, and live for ever:

23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The Gardern of Eden was cursed ground for Man. God turned man out of the Gardern of Eden because of his disobedience.

Comparing butchering animals before the world was corrupted and after the world was corrupted is apples and oranges.

That does not address your comments of earlier at all. It seems your having a difficult time of defending your statements that run counter to the written words of the text.

[Watchman]

"Devolution" is a bit of a weird term, since it really just means evolution anyway. Save that with the connotation the speaker does not like the direction it takes.

Which, in any case, boils down to living things having changed and God having either done it Himself, or allowed it to happen for His fuzzy reasons (and by means of precondition having made said living things with the proper mechanisms to make change possible in the first place). And since "nature" is per definition His creation to arrange as He sees fit, such developements are just as "natural" as the original scheme - if only because they couldn't happen without His OK in any case...

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

If I recall Leviticus correctly, doesn't sacrifing animals and burning the flesh produce 'a sweet savour unto the Lord'?

And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Yeah, God really doesn't like us killing those animals.

[drone]

Didn't God prefer Abel's animal sacrifice to that of Cain's grain and fruit?

[Redleg]

Didn't God prefer Abel's animal sacrifice to that of Cain's grain and fruit?

Yes indeed, which lead to Cain doing a killing.

[Adrian II]

In its own quaint way, I guess this museum proves that 'dinosaurs and humans coexist'.

[Kagemusha]

Personally i dont get these creationist´s. Why do they have to create this kind of silly theories. Isnt it pretty universally accepted fact that bible was written by men, not God, so its only limited interpretation of men about how things went down.So why take it word for word? There is no mention exactly how God created the World.Maybe he did it by creating the first carbon based organisms and then let them evolve for 45 billion years and that evolution is still processing?
I dont understand why these fundamentalist´s have to always have enemies. Cant it be possible to believe and be atleast little bit rational at same time?

[Tribesman]

Is it time for poll ?
Going by the opening post and that posters following contributions is that poster...
A Someone who is a Christian and is on a wind up
B Someone who is not a Christian and is on a wind up
CInsane

[Jubilation T Cornpone]

Well, I for one will be going along as soon as its open. I never thought I'd ever get a chance to meet P T Barnum in person and I'm not missing it now!

[Kralizec]

It feels kinda bad to gang up on a single person, but this question is itching me...

@Navaros: you know how halal meat is produced? And who decreed the procedure?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Is it time for poll ?
Going by the opening post and that posters following contributions is that poster...
A Someone who is a Christian and is on a wind up
B Someone who is not a Christian and is on a wind up
CInsane

Navaros advocating evolution and claiming his own hypocrisy has finally convinced me that he has conducted the most entertaining wind-up all this time.

I think he is a very committed Christian who likes to push our buttons and thus perhaps reveal our own intolerances.

I'm very impressed.

[Lemur]

I am glad to see that nobody is arguing that such a museum shouldn't be built. After all, in the grand scheme of the American economy, $27 million is nothing, a tiny fragment of a drop in the bucket. If people want to donate their hard-earned cash to creating this museum, well, that's what the U.S. is all about.

Other Christian-themed learning centers have been built, with varying success. Heritage USA was a flop, but by contrast, Bob Jones University is thriving. I disagree with the Creation Museum's ideology, but I'm glad they have the freedom to do what they like.

[Major Robert Dump]

Since there will be primitive humans represented does that mean the females will be topless? Maybe we'll get to see Adam's sausage as well. I bet when John Ashcroft visits he brings a tarp with him.

[yesdachi]

… I’m pretty sure everyone wore fig leaves back then.

[Watchman]

If those Jehovah's pamphlets I've seen are anything to judge by, they also had pretty impeccable make-up jobs on all the time.

...why American religious nuts have such a fixation with turning what's supposed to be sacred and profound into cheap and vulgar is quite beyond my comprehension.

[Tribesman]

...why American religious nuts have such a fixation with turning what's supposed to be sacred and profound into cheap and vulgar is quite beyond my comprehension.

Quite simply it is because they lack faith .

[Watchman]

Were that the case they'd have to be pretty queer to make themselves so ridiculous on a regular basis.

I think they just lack good taste in general.