Cav vs Inf

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Hi,

I made a video. It is too short, because I have only a shareware fraps version, but you can see a charge against valour 3 infantery (heavy swords!) The cav kills also the other Inf:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=a2v994uEYfk

I tried the strength of the cav and It can't be. One cav can beat 2! valour 3 ! inf. maybe also 3. Why should I still use inf, if cav can kill all infantery? This is very annoying. The balance isn't okay.

Cav should be used to flank the enemy if they attack frontal, they cannot destroy 2 heavy sword units. This wasn't possible in mtw1. a good flank made the enemy routing, but it doesn't destroyed one FULL strong unit.

[Paolai]

I have said that the cav charge is too much strong more than 3 weeks ago in the balance topic.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72477

sadly I heard that CA is making charge stronger in the new patch mybe they have still to relaize that this is a very important issue. Cav charge must be weaker and not stronger!

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

I have said that the cav charge is too much strong more than 3 weeks ago in the balance topic.

Yes, i cannot count like the infantery get killed. 60 30 0

sadly I heard that CA is making charge stronger in the new patch mybe they have still to relaize that this is a very important issue. Cav charge must be weaker and not stronger!

Yes, weaker. At the moment, I don't want to play the game. With this cav charge, the game makes no sense.

[CeltiberoMordred]

It doesn't matter unit's valor or what kind of unit you attack. It's like old swipe, charge kills everything. I tried vs v9 JHI w1a1 and works as well as vs levy spearmen v0.

Not only cavalry charges are powerful, infantry charges are powerful as well. Each time I charge with infantry I can get 15-20 kills (normal size).

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

It doesn't matter unit's valor or what kind of unit you attack. It's like old swipe, charge kills everything. I tried vs v9 JHI w1a1 and works as well as vs levy spearmen v0.

Not only cavalry charges are powerful, infantry charges are powerful as well. Each time I charge with infantry I can get 15-20 kills (normal size).

This is annoying as well, but the CAV charge kills every INF unit to zero. That is unplayable. And valour makes no differents. Cannot be. After some games I can say the fatigue is also too less.

[CeltiberoMordred]

Fatigue impact is too low compared to MTW running and fighting. Going uphill is very severe with infantry, though. Desert makes no effect in heavy armoured units. Troops with plate mail in summer+desert keep fresh for ages. Light troops tire faster than heavy units in desert because they are not "hardy". But this is another thread...

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Fatigue impact is too low compared to MTW running and fighting. Going uphill is very severe with infantry, though. Desert makes no effect in heavy armoured units. Troops with plate mail in summer+desert keep fresh for ages. Light troops tire faster than heavy units in desert because they are not "hardy". But this is another thread...

Ok last offtopic: Yes, so many isn't as it should be. I would test that cases as early as I can. And in the blog they told us, that all is fine.

EDIT: ups I should read more the other threads, sry for double posting, but less time last weeks for reading in forums.

[Kronos]

Go buy 2 trained horses, get 4 of ur freinds together and 2 of u on the horses charge down the other 3 head on and see what happens. The only problem I see with cav is that theu nit sizes are too big compared to infantry. In a battle there'd be 40,000 infantry to 7,000 knights.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Go buy 2 trained horses, get 4 of ur freinds together and 2 of u on the horses charge down the other 3 head on and see what happens. The only problem I see with cav is that theu nit sizes are too big compared to infantry. In a battle there'd be 40,000 infantry to 7,000 knights.

No in MTW VI the size was also 60 men INF and 40 men cav. The problem is, that the charge of the cav is extrem overpowered. It seems to be, that a) CA hate all old players or b) they haven't tested this error.

[Paolai]

the second one, or they just do not understand that charge with a cav is extremely easy. If they need help to test, they have just to ask it.

[Puzz3D]

the second one, or they just do not understand that charge with a cav is extremely easy. If they need help to test, they have just to ask it.

CA wants the charge to be strong. They recently said the reason is to satisfy the players who want cav charge to be very strong.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

CA wants the charge to be strong. They recently said the reason is to satisfy the players who want cav charge to be very strong.

Which serious TW Gamer wants such kill rates? And another question. Why they have implemented so many units then. At the moment, you need only cav. The other units are useless.

[Fenix7]

The other units are useless.

Elephant units as well?

[Paolai]

CA wants the charge to be strong. They recently said the reason is to satisfy the players who want cav charge to be very strong.

well so they can make the cavs prices very very high or pikes avaliable for more factions in high era, and swords stronger vs pikes. A good solution for a good balance.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

The other (not cav) units are useless.

Elephant units as well?

Elephants are not Cav?

Well, in many games elepfants are forbidden like art. But if somebody used them, they were overpowered too imo. But I will test them against a heavy sword inf and cav.

EDIT: I tested elephants. They are the hell. They fought against 2 v3 heavy swords and killed both units easily: :(

[Puzz3D]

well so they can make the cavs prices very very high or pikes avaliable for more factions in high era, and swords stronger vs pikes. A good solution for a good balance.

It's the unformed charge that's there to satisfy players like you or me or my entire clan. The formed charge is there for players who want overpowered cavalry. Apparently, CA has marketing research that indicates a lot of players want overpowered cavalry. How are you going to fight that? Even if you got 500 or 1000 players to sign a petition requesting that each faction be given infantry units that can stop cavalry frontally, they wouldn't consider it because they no longer accept petitions.

[Paolai]

showing to the CA marketing that you can beat 20 infantry units with 6 cav units.

[Fenix7]

Elephant units as well?

Elephants are not Cav?

This is not the point. Have you not notice the sarcasm in my post?

As far I know someone is aware of this issues. Let's see what the patch will bring.

In reality there was very few occasions in middle ages that spears won against cavalry on the open field (days of phalanxes were forgoten in those days). Not to mention how real medieval armies look like, etc.

I don't know for any game (from the times when chess was invented) which would involve hisotrical accuracy, realism and gameplay on the highest level. There might be few games which managed to address first two issue but then the third one was dull or vice versa. This goes for STW as well. I don't deny it's gameplay value, but when talking from historical point of view, in reality things were a bit different.

I would like to see that cavalry units should be more expensive and strong spear unit should be able to win against cavalry unit.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

This is not the point. Have you not notice the sarcasm in my post?

Aeh sry And I tested the elephants and that made me more frustrated.

In reality there was very few occasions in middle ages that spears won against cavalry on the open field (days of phalanxes were forgoten in those days). Not to mention how real medieval armies look like, etc.

A game don't must be uber realistic, the most important is the fun. The most fun is in my opinion

swords beat spears and cav (if they hit them frontal)

cav beat swords (from side or back) and make spears fear if hit the hit came from rear

spears beat cav (frontal att) and lose against swords.

But I think such things I don't need to tell you :) But CA should read this or the marketing department, but I am sure the marketing department isn't interested in playing M2TW.

[CeltiberoMordred]

Anyways, something seems bugged, because even a supposed "weak" cavalry with a charge of 2-3 can erase an entire infantry unit in one second. As I said, it looks to me a new swipe effect.

And yes, even 5 cavalry can beat a 20 infantry army, and with half cost.

If CA wants these powerful cavalry charges, their cost should be increased a lot (which I don't like at all - a bad solution imho, tell me what can we do with eastern armies).

After the patch it can be even worse, because I think cavalry won't switch to swords and will keep their lances against missile units, making charges even stronger.

[JeffBag]

I think its a new swipe effect too, because hobilars tear through anything in a frontal charge too, which can't be the case. Charge bonus don't really seem at all important unless 80% of a unit dead isn't enough for you.

[Fenix7]

A game don't must be uber realistic, the most important is the fun.

Ah Die_Hard yet again you have not been reading my post carefuly.

I don't know for any game (from the times when chess was invented) which would involve hisotrical accuracy, realism and gameplay on the highest level. There might be few games which managed to address first two issue but then the third one was dull or vice versa.

If we summerize issue so far:

- lag
- cavalry charge
- spear issue
- musket effect
- "zoom to general's death"

If only this five things are going to be addressed it would be excellent - for a start. Anything else anyone would like to add - a bug or exploit?

[Paolai]

Pikes too much strong vs Swords

[CeltiberoMordred]

Interesting thread about cavalry and infantry:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74417

[Orda Khan]

Anyways, something seems bugged, because even a supposed "weak" cavalry with a charge of 2-3 can erase an entire infantry unit in one second. As I said, it looks to me a new swipe effect.

And yes, even 5 cavalry can beat a 20 infantry army, and with half cost.

If CA wants these powerful cavalry charges, their cost should be increased a lot (which I don't like at all - a bad solution imho, tell me what can we do with eastern armies).

After the patch it can be even worse, because I think cavalry won't switch to swords and will keep their lances against missile units, making charges even stronger.

Certainly looks more like a bug than a feature

.......Orda

[Sparkythefly]

everything i understand says that calvary have an incredibly powerful charge but aren't so great in melee, so they retreat charge retreat, so instead of allowing them to do this have you ever considered forcing them to fight?

example of what i might do

knowing as i do that if calvary run into another calvary unit i know how to stop a calvary charge, now what unit to use, lets go with hobilars, sure there a crappy unit but there job is to absorb a charge not fight, you can buy tons of these things for nothing,
ok now i know how to stop the charge, now what to fight them with, lets go with any of the billmen there all like 13 attack and all the different versions have armour piercing and some spear bonus's against calvary. ok now i've got them stopped and fighting how do i prevent them from just leaving and charging again, park good calvary behind your infantry, once they try and retreat, go skirmish formation and charge your own horses at them, if they run use your longbowmen to pound them,

but not all factions are the same so what about some different ones, horse archers make good charge absorbers, they can force the charge with there shots, and then once there charge is broken move in with infantry,

but what if you dont just want the unit absorbing the charge to be dead on impact, well try a hide anywhere unit like assassins or hassashin to catch them by surprise while there chasing another unit but too far away to have started a charge, or how about instead of forming up the unit in front of the infantry, you intermix them, now they may break the first line of infantry but then they'll be mired in amongst the infantry, and if they try and retreat the horses go after them, alternatly, use light calvary to move at the last second and ruin that charge, turn your unit in the direction of there weapon and tell them to run, the enemy calvary will turn to compensate and the formed charge will turn into an unformed charge, now pounce on them with infantry.

use elephants to beat the charge at its own game, use hitpoints 2 units to make them charge and not kill a damn thing only wound a unit, and now they dont have any moral gain from the kills as you counterattack, use stakes back to back and wait for them to screw up and charge into them while there going after a unit, use siege engines to kill a few horses and put your infantry behidn them, half the unit charging will be blocked by the siege engines and the charge will become unformed and half the unit won't be fighting.

throw a few peasent units in front of excellent archers a BLOCK of infantry, not a line a line can be overwhelemed on its flanks, a block is 2 or 3 units deep, then get either light calvary or horse archers, if you get horse archers dont fight, let them charge and once the fight starts try to absorb the charge with peasents, and then flank with the horse archers to keep them from retreating.

i'm not trying to be rude but instead of calv are overpowered how about a how to beat those overpowered calv thread :P

[Darsh]

sorry but beat an all cav army is just a piece of cake with a balance amy you must just have 4/5 light cav to absorb the charge, pikemen and/or spearmen and even horse archers are excellent.
The only rule is: DON'T TAKE A LOT OF HEAVY INFANTERY OR YOU WILL LOOSE BADLY. (for the max heayv infantery is 3/4).

try to adapt it's not RTW.

[Grey_Fox]

A lot of the people have been playing since STW and MTW. We know how to adapt, and we also know how units should work. The cavalry charge is imbalanced.

[ElmarkOFear]

The problem, as I see it, is all cav units, no matter their cost or charge value can kill most of a foot unit (whether spear, pike or sword) on contact (or within a short time after contact). Heavy cav, like the well armored heavy knight units should be able to kill a lot of units on contact due to their armor, mass, and cost. However, even the cheap, unarmored, light cav units kill the same amount of men as the heavily armored, expensive, knight units during the initial charge. I think this is where the actual problem is.

A light unarmored cav unit should not kill as quickly or as many foot units as a heavy armored cav unit.

Certain factions might as well not be included in MP (like the Aztec faction) if certain changes aren't made to some of the cav units. The Aztecs have no cav units available so nobody will take them if they think a player will bring a mostly-cav army.

Proof that cav is overpowered will soon be easily noticed when you find most of your opponents using mostly-cav armies. Just like in MTW and the knight, sword, pavise crossbow armies you saw all the time. The reason you saw those units was because they were the most powerful in the game. Spears have been nerfed since the very first MTW patch. I do not see them being brought back as a powerful anti-cav unit either, due to what Puzz3D insinuated: CA has determined or believes that the majority of the newer players like having strong cav more than balance.

Another problem is CA has never created two sets of unit stats: One for SP and one for MP. Currently, changes to one will almost always adversely effect the other. CA has always been SP focused, so you will be hardpressed to get any changes which will balance MP, but may unbalance SP. SP still rules.

I can almost imagine what started this idea of high-powered cav during the meetings for M2TW:

Someone asked; "What do you think of when you think of medieval warfare?"

"I think of knights in shiney armor charging down their enemies!"

"Very good Mr. President of Marketing"

"I think of balanced armies and spear units impaling horses and bashing in the knights' skulls!"

"Very good Mr. Wise Guy. I hope you enjoy your next job assignment in the mail room."

[Paolai]

Fact is that you can win the campaign VH VH just using cav units, and I do not think that it is what the marketing wanted. I just think that they are not able to test a game like this one, or maybe they have not tested at all.