Hobilars > Armoured Sergeants

[Kraxis]

Its true...

In a standup even fight Hobilars win against Armoured Sergeants.
Naturally you need to pull the the Hobilars out after each charge, but three charges seem to be enough to kill an entire unit of Armoured Sergeants.

Hobilars people... Hobilars. They have stats like mounted Peasants, and their charge is negliable. Yet they can defeat Armoured Sergeants easily (I averaged out at 22 losses for around 105 kills). 5:1 killrate with arguably the weakest cavalry against the strongest unit that is specifically meant to counter cavalry... I fail to see the reason in this.

The charge is way overpowered as I have feared for a while now. Hobilars shouldn't have a chance at all. They should become red paint on the Sergeants' shields if they decide to charge them head on if they are braced.

So Hobilars can do this... no wonder that heavy cavalry can crush anything it meets, if it gets off a nice charge. Spearmen = useless against cavalry that pulls back.

Given that Hobilars can crush spearmen with so apparent ease, I thought it might be the spearmen who were lacking in particular. So I ran two tests against two ofthe strongest infantry in the game, Dismounted Gothic Knights and JHI.
Well, my Hobilars ended up taking about 30 losses for a complete destruction of both. It was easy... Very easy in fact. Just pull out at once and you can crush any infantry with light cavalry.

Now that Hobilar has proven themselves as the master of all infantry, I tohught about giving horse archers a chance to prove thmselves in melee.

Well, after my Khazaks (weakest horse archers I could think off along with Turkish, but Turks must be on the same team) destroyed a unit of JHI with three charges (no skirmish and no FAW, would be unfair if my men used their bows), granted they took 40 losses, but I left them in melee when there were only 4 JHI left and they cut down 6-7 of them. I considered my point made.

ANY CAVLARY CAN DEFEAT ANY INFANTRY WITH CHARGES!

[EDIT] Ok, it seems the Armoured Sergeatns did put up a stronger defense against the Khazaks. The first was a loss, but mainly because my general got killed and I couldn't do anything while the little cutscene was on. Then I won fairly easily with 35 losses, then lost again, but this time becasue the enemy general died right after impact, and again the Khazaks got stuck. But then I won again with relative ease. Both the times I lost the Armoured Sergeants were don't to ca 40 men of their 112 original, and I had ca 35 remaining when my generals died. And again three charges seemed to be the norm for killing them.

Also mind you, that in none of my tests did I pull out into two rows. Started out in default, then after the first charge into four rows and finally three rows to keep an approximate of the original frontline.

To be honest it felt rather fun in an ironic way to see Armoured Spearmen come flying off the ground when the Khazaks charged. Apparently the Khazak charge was so powerful that even a specialist infantry unit, and large one at it couldn't do anything.

Unfortunately there is little we can do about this with modding it seems. We can't just lower the chargevalue for Hobilars and light horse archers like the Khazaks, they are already very low (3 and 2 if I remember correctly). Yet despite their very low value these units have just about the same impact on infantry as heavy cavalry has... so it has to do with cavalry itself.

[Herkus]

Hobilars are also effective against Scottish pikemens. After three charges Scots started to run away.
Almost defeated Swiss pikemens too - after many charges only 3 remaining hobilars were left to run away, on Swiss side only 22 pikemens were alive!!

[Kraxis]

I was actually hoping that Pikemen of various sorts would be able to contain cavalrycharges... if only to an extent.
In fact I expected it,that was why I didn't use them. I guess I better jump off to try Halberds and pikes then.

[FactionHeir]

Missile cav charges are weak (or bugged?) They never ever killed more than 2 people from the charge itself for me. Actual melee cav all have pretty powerful charges. The charge strength number doesn't seem to affect that.

[Kraxis]

Trust me... if you set up the enemy infantry properly and get the full charge off, missile cavalry has a charge that is similar to heavy cavalry. Men flying everywhere and horses that end up on the far side of the unit. I suggest you try it out in Custom Battle sometime.

Anyway, I tested the Khazaks against Militia Halberd, Militia Pike and Landsknechts. They just barely won against the Halberds, and lost to both the pike units, however they kill around 50 in both units. And I think part of the defeats comes from the fact that the pikemen's generals died in the first charge every time. That meant the Khazaks stayed for far too long and got reduced to less than 30 men in all the piketests. Had I been able to extract them at once I doubt they woul have lost that many men initially, and I could perhaps have gotten them to kill more (though I doubt they could defeat them).

[Malachus]

I agree -- although a head on cavalry charge should be strong, I think a formed charged in MTW2 is too powerful, especially against spear/pike units.

However, I don't think it's necessarily the charge bonus that is to blame. IIRC, the collision impact is set to be very high so that when the cavalry do charge, they really lay waste...

It could be this, or maybe the spears/pikes in the game just don't have enough of a bonus when fighting cavalry.

[andrewt]

Yup, the formed charge is way, way overpowered. The not formed charge is kinda weak, though. I think that realistically, these two shouldn't be that far apart in power. I once whittled the king unit of an enemy to 1 man (the king). He was able to disengage. He charged a unit of dismounted boyar sons and killed at least 8 men on the initial charge... I think he killed a few more before dying.

[PaulTa]

Try testing said infantry units in a loose formation. In my experience, a square loose formation helps with the absorbing phase, and the spears spread out means that the individual cavalry units get flanked more often.

[Comrade Alexeo]

I read earlier today that the average medieval knight, in full armor and charging an enemy at 12-15 miles per hour, produced something like 13,000 foot-pounds upon impact.

Formed charges are not overpowered.

[Hamburglo]

Thats a lot of torque... :P

[RZST]

I read earlier today that the average medieval knight, in full armor and charging an enemy at 12-15 miles per hour, produced something like 13,000 foot-pounds upon impact.

Formed charges are not overpowered.

but do they unbalance the game? that is the question.

[Cheetah]

1, Hobilars (haf the price of an armoured serg) beating up armoured sergeants and in fact any sword/axe inf head on is not balanced.

2, It is a known issue to CA.

3, Amroured sergeants are however not "strongest unit that is specifically meant to counter cavalry" if we talk about charge. Armoured sergeants are to kill cavs but they are not specialist in holding charges.

4, Pikes are the specialist to hold charges.

5, Pikes do much better than armoured sergeants.
Noble pikemen vs Chiv knights (men alive after charge):

67:23
63:20
67:20
66:26

So half of the cavs were killed on the charge and only 8-10 pikemen were lost. (of course the remaining CK can cause much trouble after the charge but it is an other story)

NP vs hobilars

75:28
74:28
70:25 (hobilar routed after impact)
74:30

Practically hobilars were not able to hurt the pikes head on and routed in all cases after a short melee.

All in all: it is definitely a balance issue; it is known to CA; those inf units that are designed to hold charges still do better than the rest.

[JeffBag]

My physics is abit rusty but,

13000 foot pounds = 17626j

Taking the average weight of an SUV, 2000kg

17626j = 1/2 mv2
35252j = 2000v2
17.6 = v2
v = 4 ms-1
= 14.4kmh

So an armoured knight is equal to a 2000 kg SUV moving at 14.4kmh. I don't think thats even enough to kill somebody, even though it would be seriously painful. Now, I play on Huge unit size, so my armoured sergeants are lined 6 thick, and a single charge from mailed knights kills 4 lines. Granted that a 14.4kmh SUV could probably push into the formation, but would it kill anybody? Or send people flying into the air like ragdolls for that matter?

To Cheetah,

The fact is, units with spear attribute are near worthless against infantry, so much so that peasants, who don't enjoy this social benefit, barely lose to armoured sergeants. Going by that balance, I would expect cavalry to be near worthless against units with spear attribute, but they aren't. Oh well, still waiting for the patch.

[AussieGiant]

My physics is abit rusty but,

13000 foot pounds = 17626j

Taking the average weight of an SUV, 2000kg

17626j = 1/2 mv2
35252j = 2000v2
17.6 = v2
v = 4 ms-1
= 14.4kmh

So an armoured knight is equal to a 2000 kg SUV moving at 14.4kmh. I don't think thats even enough to kill somebody, even though it would be seriously painful. Now, I play on Huge unit size, so my armoured sergeants are lined 6 thick, and a single charge from mailed knights kills 4 lines. Granted that a 14.4kmh SUV could probably push into the formation, but would it kill anybody? Or send people flying into the air like ragdolls for that matter?

To Cheetah,

The fact is, units with spear attribute are near worthless against infantry, so much so that peasants, who don't enjoy this social benefit, barely lose to armoured sergeants. Going by that balance, I would expect cavalry to be near worthless against units with spear attribute, but they aren't. Oh well, still waiting for the patch.

Hi Jeff,

I'm not sure about your comment; "I don't think thats even enough to kill somebody, even though it would be seriously painful."

Keep in mind that unlike an SUV the "torque" is being directed through a 15 foot lance head aimed at a person.

[rc5924]

Yeah I see alot of this stuff around on the forums, my question is you did all this stuff in a custom battle right? You just set up the units and they fought, one unit to one unit? Im guessing thats what happened, cuz I dont know about you guys, but when Im in a battle with a full army, I dont have the time to move all forces that I would have if there were just 2 seperate units. And even when I do only mess with a unit of cavalry at a time against an enemy unit at a time I dont have the same results you seem to do. Now maybe Im just not as good, which would make sense because it sounds to me like you guys get way more 'into' this game than I ever could with having a job, a girlfriend, friends, family, and more importantly other things to do, but I was fighting Rebel town militia the other day with some mailed knights and not having the best time of it, of course there were other units in the battle, but I guess I should have pulled my knights out after that charge, I guess Im just not the kind of guy that likes to pause the game every 30 seconds and nit pick that much.

[TheFluff]

Its been awhile since i've played RTW, but in rome if cav charged dident some units get knocked down but dident die? I could have sworn that was in rome? mabye im wrong but if it was, why did they take it out? I mean it would make alot of sence if light cav could knock down units but not really kill them. The force of a horse hitting you head on would cerently knock you down and stun you but it wouldent kill you. I mean light missle cav are more of a distruption unit when used to charge the flank or front.

Becides, if a unit can take a musket or crossbow bolt and not die, im sure they can take a head on cav charge if they brace for it right? :P

[PaulTa]

Hi Jeff,

I'm not sure about your comment; "I don't think thats even enough to kill somebody, even though it would be seriously painful."

Keep in mind that unlike an SUV the "torque" is being directed through a 15 foot lance head aimed at a person.

That's not the only thing. Torque can't really be taken into account seriously unless we're talking about pulling down or pushing down something. The fact that the cavalry charged at a reasonable speed and then had all of that energy transfered to a lance point is what makes the charge fun. Not to mention, a well armored horse happens to break a formation as well.

[JeffBag]

I agree that the lance would skewer quite alot of people, but the horse itself sending people flying in the air? Knocking people who are merely at the side of the horse half a meter away? Instead of simply killing people who are hit by the lance, cavalry units in this game seems to kill anything near it, sweeping away infantry with the tail of the horse tabard.

[Malachus]

So long as CA brings some better balance in the game... it's sad to see my entire infantry line buckle because my armored sergeants couldn't hold their own against a couple units of barely bronze chevron mailed knights with a crappy general leading them.

[Somebody Else]

Schiltron them! I know it doesn't make the battleline very much of a line... but I've had one or two armoured sergeants slaughter multiple Mongol heavy cav units - was period of 3 or 4 battles where every time the umpteen star Mongol general got slaughtered by the guys... unfortunately the other 10 units of heavy cav finished them off - but hey, good trade off I think.

[BigTex]

Jeff your missing that the 13,000 lb's of force is focused onto a point that's measured in microns. Throwing people into the air is a little unrealistic but it could happen if the horse was going fast enough.

As for hobilar's. Kraxis they will beat DEK's with a Halberd Militia's animation, completely decimate them with only losing a handful. The problem lie's with CA's idea to give any cavalry the can_formed_charge stat, even to crudy units like the hobilar's. That's a huge problem, when theirs a huge difference in how gaelic horsemen charged compared to shock cavalry. The formed charge simply is to powerful for light cavalry and even some medium cavalry.

[Comrade Alexeo]

Indeed, the point is that those 13,000 foot-pounds are concentrated in the tip of a lance. An SUV, in contrast, has a very wide, broad frontal area to spread the impact.

The same book earlier talked about the efficacy of weapons in general, and it said that it only takes about 2 foot-pounds of force to penetrate the human "viscera" (I'm assuming that means through the skin at the very least, and possibly to the bone) - if that force is concentrated in an area of about one square inch. It continued that various armors require 60-150 or something foot-pounds to allow for penetration - which is why as a rule armor was rarely actually "penetrated" by weapons, because they usually couldn't produce that kind of force.

But then you have a knight with his lance, which, if we take 13,000 foot-pounds concentrated in an area of about 1 inch or so as our, can therefore under ideal conditions penetrate any armor worn by the enemy. Now, this will have obviously varied in practice, but nevertheless we must conclude that the medieval knight in the charge was capable of delivering truly massive blows.

[Oleander Ardens]

I don't have the game yet, waiting for a good patch but I wonder if this is fixable..

Just think about it. Taking away the ability of formed charges from light cavalry will cause a watershed between the formed charges and the always unformed charges.

This forces heaviest tweaking to the unit stats and costs so that you get roughly balanced units, both worthy of their costs. The differences must be quite huge to make up for the lost formed charge which is reserved for waiting cavalry of all types.

But if any cavalry, even if abyssal stats is able to trample heavy spears or pikes in a frontal attack thanks to their formed charge animations despite all tweaking it might be best for a historical mod to take it out completely.

All the well researched papers if have read about medieval combat concluded that a decent well-formed infantry unit with good morale was usually able to stop knights - and here in MTWII light HA can overrun elite infantry with polearms..

Cheers
OA

[JeffBag]

As I said above, I have no problems with the lance killing anybody it hits, but in real life, bodies do pile up, and horses do slow down after that. In the game it seems that once the cavalry unit kills something, it physically disappears so the horse doesn't lose speed at all. Also, if you look closely, even the sides of the horse are capable of killing people. They simply brush alongside some unlucky person and he flies into the air as well, so much so that a single horse charging can easily kill a tremendous amount of people. This is what I disagree with.

I agree that the formed charge should only be given to heavy cavalry. There is no reason why hobilars should be decimating heavy infantry.

[dopp]

Agreed. Cavalry charges are massively more effective in M2TW and a distinction should be made between light, raider cavalry and heavy knights. But I also feel that cavalry have become glass cannons. Their defense is lower than that of heavy infantry in many cases and they drop like flies to peasants. Even executing a successful formed charge can kill 25% of the knights themselves on impact. I miss the heavy catatanks of RTW that were a little more resilient and could fight it out in melee for a while. The knights should get a bonus to defense skill for being mounted. Right now the infantry have higher defense skill, dismounted feudal knights have defense skill 7 on foot compared to mounted 5 and a larger shield to boot.

[andrewt]

On my example, a king with no bodyguard left killed 8 dismounted boyar sons on a charge. Can somebody tell me if a lance packing 15000 ft-lbs of force can kill 8 people on a single charge? Formed charges in this game are overpowered. Knights should be able to do it to peasants, but not to armored elite infantry, especially one unit killing 8 on a charge.

[Shahed]

I did a custom battle with JHI vs Templars in full charge. On impact the JHI were down to 40%, the Templars lost 10%. In the ensuing melee, the JHI were routed.

Against spear units, well I've been doing the charge in and out thing since MTW, in multiplayer too, with much more intelligent opponents and it worked then too.

I like the fact that to pull this charge off you need to be properly lined up and with good unit cohension. It does not always auto charge like in MTW. In this what I've noticed is that mostly I've failed to auto charge from angles etc... that results in a bad charge or worse, a sword charge.

Having said all this I never charge any infantry head on if at all possible, so that makes my complete charge all the more difficult to put off. I've been doing that since MTW as well, almost never charge any infantry head on. Always charge from both sides, or front and back simultaneously. But then you have to charge like this if you're always playing wiht weak horse archers against human opponents.

I tried Kapikulu against French Pikes, with a correct frontal charge, they were able to beat and rout them though they took 50% losses.

I think the proper formed charge should stay, it's not easy to pull off. I also think that spears should hold better but only against cavalry, and only when charged frontally. Hell I don't ever charge a spear unit frontally, never did. You should'nt be able to either.

The devastating knight charge is all fine and good but there should be some spear units capable of bracing and holding, impaling people, horses etc...

[KARTLOS]

i think the tests people do with custom battles are sometimes a bit artifical - in campaign i have not noticed my speaermen being too weak vs cav or vice versa, quite the oposite in fact.

this may be due to the difficulty in charging properly though which i guess is easier in a custom battle.

[Shahed]

Of course, specially in a custom battle on flat grassy plain with one unit of each unit. 1vs1 match up, nothing else on the field.

[Kraxis]

Actually my tests were a bit for the MP section as well.

And not all factions have access to pikes or proper halberds. What are they supposed to do against the irresistable charge of Khazaks?

Khazaks and Hobilars killing Armoured Sergeants head on... Ok not head on since the AI insisted on using Schiltrom, but still, it was far too easy.

I'm no superb player by a longshot, but it was so easy to pull them out, retreat some distance and form them up for antoher charge. In technical terms I didn't need my hands on them all the time. So if I could do it, a better player could certainly do it.

And you doubters, next time you fight in the campaign. Take your light cavalry (if you have any), and charge the strongest infantry the enemy has. The enemy forces will of coruse respond when you hit them, but just pull back (you might have to be insistent but it will work out with repeated orders). Then take stock of the losses you have suffered, and the losses your enemy has suffered.

Then calculate if it is a fair result.

If that is not to your satisfaction, then create an army of Mounted Sergeants. 7-8 units are plenty. Then pit them against any enemy. I did that and practically wiped out 1300 English troops of double silver, including a good general, two units of knights and plenty plenty spearmen. After I had merged my Sergeants I had four and a half units left. Heavy losses, but heavier still for the enemy, and I had barely spent any money on these troops. But the magic is to use repeated charges... Charge, charge, charge... and then charge again. Melee will kill light cavalry as it should, but charges apparently kill anything.

If you are eastern, then train an army of the cheapest horses archers and try the same, with no archery (and remember to turn skirmish off or else your troops will hesitate). I bet that you will get the same results.

It is disgusting to see the lightest, weakest possible form of cavalry (Khazaks and Turkish Horse Archers), run down Armoured Sergeants, JHI, Gothic Knights ect by charging them. These guys are all about staying as far away from the enemy as possible. They should not be able to send braced JHI flying when they strike home... Light cavalry should never have the formed charge at all!!!

And honestly, does it matter if I have all the time I need? We all know that those situations happen now and then. You can pull the enemy troops to where you want to charge them. This is about the potential that is inherent in all cavalry. THe potential to kill all but pikes, which are not uniformly issued to all factions.