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Thread: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

  1. #31
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    The southerners were previously Democrats, but their descendents are now Republicans, and vice versa for the northerners and their descendents. It was the irony of this situation that I was pointing out in my original post.
    And when they were democrats, they supported slavery (and Jim Crow laws after the civil war). The Republicans residing their now do not.

    So please stop tying to paint this as though the Republican party ever supported slavery.

    CR
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  2. #32
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Argh the original post was extremely silly.

    When you wrote the post, it made it seem as if immediately after the American Civil War the slave owners sons decided "Hey, let's join the Republicans!"

    Besides, the red state-blue state thing is way overplayed. Its on the local level, rural vs. urban. If you looked at a county-by-county level, you'll notice that the counties with large cities at their creamy centers are more Democrat than the surrounding countryside.

    So, your post refers to the recent sons and daughters of the MASSIVE IMMIGRATION that has occured between the 1860's and now. It's now not really possible to point out a 'pure slavery family', whose ancestors all owned or were directly descended from slave owners.

    So the irony is that you used a map that doesn't reflect the urban v. rural shifts in voting tracks.

    Notes for future
    :Think about what you post, better maps, and when you talk about Dixie, it better be for a good reason and backed up by a hundred Wiki articles.
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    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  3. #33
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    The simplified "ethnic minority (or blacks/Hispanics) = poor" statement seems to be statistically correct, as would the assumption that black people are likely to be overproportionally hit by the "secession".
    However, that does not make the secession "racially motivated" IMO as the motivation is unlikely to be "we want to show the blacks" but rather "we want to keep our money" (and the latter statement is not intended to be evaluative from my side - as it is of course to a certain extent justified and only a rare minority of highly philanthropic nature does not share this sentiment at least to a ceratin extent)
    I agree with Ser on this one. I don't think it would matter if it was "poor white trash in da trailerpark". "boyz in da hood" or boyz in da barrio" et al. However, playing the racial card gets more attention. I feel an appearance by Reverend Al is imminent.
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  4. #34
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    What about the Asian minority? Why aren't they outraged by this? It's because despite being a minority they aren't affected by this.

    So it is race related, or it is a bunch of people angry to see people using their democratic privilage to seperate themselves from a problem.

    Or it could be something else entirely....
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

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    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  5. #35
    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    The southerners were previously Democrats, but their descendents are now Republicans, and vice versa for the northerners and their descendents. It was the irony of this situation that I was pointing out in my original post.
    And when they were democrats, they supported slavery (and Jim Crow laws after the civil war). The Republicans residing their now do not.
    You're trying to make the tail wag the dog here.

    The Democrats of old weren't supporting slavery because they were Democrats, they were supporting slavery because they were southerners.

    TH already summed up the shifts along the varying political axes that the Dems and Reps have gone through.

    The Democrats were previously pro slavery and anti civil rights because their power base was in the south, and that was what their constituency demanded. Now, their power base is in the north, so for the most part the Dems hold themselves out as the party of liberal social policy and civil rights, because that is what their current constituency demands.

    Just as the Republicans were previously anti slavery and pro civil rights, because their power base was in the north and that is what their constituency demanded. Now, their power base is in the South and rural America, so they hold themselves out as the party of guns and Jesus, because that is what their current constituency demands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    And when they were democrats, they supported slavery (and Jim Crow laws after the civil war). The Republicans residing their now do not.

    So please stop tying to paint this as though the Republican party ever supported slavery.

    CR


    I never said anything of the kind, and you well know it.

    And you further well know that the Republican and Democrat parties of today are completely ideologically different and supported by completely different demographics than they were in the 1800s.

    Yet this never stops today's Republicans from Mississippi or Alabama from pointing at today's Democrats from New York and Massachusets and saying "Ya'll were the ones who supported slavery, we were always against it."

    It's absolutely ridiculous.

    And I'm pretty sure you understand that as well.
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  6. #36
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Slavery was actually supported in the Constitution (Hence the South's claim of states rights to slavery), ie each slave was counted as 3/5 of a free person, for population count which determined the number of congressional house members per state, and electoral votes for presidential elections. A sop to the southern states at the Constitution's drafting because winning freedom from Britain needed the combined effort of all 13 original colonies and was considered more important at the time. The friction started after more territories applied for statehood and the North wanted to prevent slavery from expanding into these new states. The North (in particular, Lincoln) was content to allow slavery in the original slave states, realizing that it would eventually wither on the vine. There was a compromise enacted to allow these border states to vote on slavery, and with all the ballot stuffing by cross border Southerners, and the subsequent violence by opposing sides the tensions mounted to the boiling point. The Republican's improbable Presidential election victory by Lincoln was the spark that set off the South's secession.


    One must realize that our contemporary view of equality was not commonly shared by even the most vocal abolitionist of that time period.
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  7. #37
    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Yet this never stops today's Republicans from Mississippi or Alabama from pointing at today's Democrats from New York and Massachusets and saying
    Wrong, the last president from the democrats was from Tenessee.

    Are you seriously trying to call the south the land of bigotted, gun toting, bible lovers? That's a very broad generalization there Mr. Goofball. The fact that the vast majority of presidents, current and in the past have been from the south tends to speak against this. Or are you claiming that the Yanks of the east cost are to ignorant to know the south is full of just gun totting KKK members?

    The south has changed, it's why the Republicans are the majority. There wasnt a sudden shift that happened one year. The republicans nor the democrats didn't suddenly shift to the north and to the south. Most of the democrats ideals still are there. Look at SS checks, and look at the democratic movements in the 40's.

    Honestly what does this debate have to do with anything related to the topic.
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  8. #38
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTex
    Honestly what does this debate have to do with anything related to the topic.
    It comes up from a post of Goofball's. People won't stop pestering the post so it stays.

    You know what? I'm quite very much sick of these flip-floppers who on one hand keep saying how Republicans suck (we can't trust them anymore! what betrayal! corrupted bunch! etc.) then come back on the other hand to say "but they don't really suck, you know, compare to the evil Democrats/Liberals/Socialists who's responsible for everything that is wrong with America."

    Make up your mind, please. Such an attitude tempts me very much. [addressed to no one in particular]

    In any case, this thread is about Atlanta and/or conflicts involving municipal budgets. From what I've heard, it's a pretty chronically troubled city anyway.

  9. #39
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
    In any case, this thread is about Atlanta and/or conflicts involving municipal budgets. From what I've heard, it's a pretty chronically troubled city anyway.
    It's got great nudie bars, so it's got that going for it.

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    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Returning to the Original Topic:

    Secession of rich areas from poor areas is an extremely poor idea. The purpose of local government is so that everyone can come together and create a common community in which all elements, have and have not, laborer and proprietor, can reasonably coexist. For the well-off to use the laborers who live in the city, and work in the tall buildings in the center of the city, and attend sporting events and museums inside the city, while not paying one cent or shedding one drop of sweat in the maintenance of the city, is patently unfair and a recipe for disaster.

    Just look at St. Louis, my home town. The current political organization of St. Louis is an extreme example of this phenomenon-- the city has a population of 350k in a Metro Area of 2.5 million. The city is mostly poor and the County is mostly better off. As a final insult, the County Seat of St. Louis County is not St. Louis-- it is in one of the amorphous, colorless municipal entities that orbit around its perimeter.

    The City of St. Louis is an impotent entity, with limited powers even to direct its own budget which are overseen heavily by the State of Missouri. St. Louis County Schools are, on average, among the best in the country. St. Louis City Schools have made national news more than once on virtue of being the very worst.

    The St. Louis area also happens to be rather segregated, though this is probably coincidental.

    So, if you wish for the complete decay and destruction of our great American Society, please do cheer these selfish Georgian arseholes. The terrorists are cheering, too.

  11. #41
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Sorry, Arroyo, but suggesting that people who work, play or shop in a neighborhood should also live there is ludicrous. In fact, the fact that they work, play and shop there is in-and-of itself supporting the community.

    My teachers always talked about white flight from the mid century as if it were some organized, evil conspiracy to stick it to the black man. I could never figure it out, I mean if your neighborhood starts to suck, then take your family and move out. No one should have to sacrafice their happiness, and possibly their safety, for some convoluted idea of diversity or any other idea for that matter. Geographic mobility is one of the great things about this country

    As for the split in the county, you have 29% of the residents paying 42% of the property taxes. That doesn't seem too unreasonably disporportionate, which would actually be one more reason to let the county split. People are crying wolf. Yes, the inner city will lose money, but the county will be spending less overall because the county gets smaller. I think the main reason so many people are up in arms against it is because of the precedent it will set.

    Honestly, I hope it works.
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  12. #42
    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    I'm sorry, Major, but the issue here is not diversity or integration either economic or racial. The one thing truly at stake here is civic responsibility. It is natural for there to be differences in wealth and culture within a society, and those different elements cannot be forced to live side by side-- but one cannot rightfully secede from the other, any more than a state could rightfully secede from the Union.

    The rich do not have money because individually they are geniuses or individually they are the hardest, smartest workers around. The rich have money because they have earned it from society. It is their right to enjoy their wealth, but they must, by right, use some of it to propel the common good.

    Kings of old spent their gold for the nation's defense.

    The emporers of Rome built roads and great theatres.

    How can the rich of today escape this timeless and most natural duty?

    Government is evil but necessary. If it is flawed you must work to fix it, not subvert it. When the rich take their ball and go home, they stop the game for everyone. They violate the social compact. This is inexcusable.

    Furthermore, you ignore the fact that this concept has already been tried. St. Louis is a perfect example of a Metro Area built entirely on the model which you have advocated. The result is tragic, absurd. A city with a soul but not a heart.

    You have always seemed a reasonable person to me, Major. If you really knew, you would not be supporting these most destructive and traitorous ideas.

  13. #43
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    This "social compact". Is it an implicit one, or an explicit one?

    Surely one could argue that if the rich should give money to the wellbeing, the poor should ensure that the place remains pleasant to live in. People aren't going to move out of a cheerful, crime-free area. A crime ridden one awash with troubles is surely something different, with the contract already in tatters.

    All people have duties as well as rights, no?

    Kings of old owned the country. They spent their money protecting their belongings.

    Roman Emperors built roads to connect their domains and theaters to entertain the masses.

    And what else did the people in the examples you chose do? Well, in general both were autocrats with unlimited powers able to do as they wished. They could start wars, take possessions or people at their whim.

    So, I find the comparisons flawed at all but the most superficial level.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  14. #44
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    dear god you should all take a step back and look at yourselves in this thread it is really scary how polerised some of you are...

    the debate going on about slavery is a complete nonissue you relise? it happened more than a century ago and neither party have any links to the parites of the time beyond their names

    back on topic - is it racist? no - is it a good idea? no

  15. #45
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
    Is this racism or common sense? I say its common sense. Far too long the parasites and poverty pimps have sucked off the nipple of the socialistic ideals of "progressive" thought.
    In Psychology there is something called the 'theory of attribution'. It says that people attribute different outcomes to different causes. If people are successful, they attribute their success primarily to themselves: they are convinced that they struggled, prevailed and triumphed essentially without outside help. If they fail, however, they attribute their failure to outside forces and blame the odds, their family or neighbors, the boss, lawmakers or society in general.

    This, my friend, is why the poor are always 'undeserving' in the eyes of the rich -- and vice versa!

    I don't know crap about Milton and Fulton or whatever and I don't wanna know. I know a fair bit about life, though. And a bit about you, because we go back at least two years now, years in which you haven't exactly been the most quiet and discrete member on the forum.

    I would expect that someone like you, who started his professional career by sleeping in his car for want of a proper home, would understand that poverty is not a mere creation of 'parasites and poverty pimps'. From someone who is a professed Christian, too, I would certainly expect different.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    I would expect that someone like you, who started his professional career by sleeping in his car for want of a proper home, would understand that poverty is not a mere creation of 'parasites and poverty pimps'. From someone who is a professed Christian, too, I would certainly expect different.
    Aren't you confusing him with Divinus?

  17. #47
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
    It comes up from a post of Goofball's. People won't stop pestering the post so it stays.

    You know what? I'm quite very much sick of these flip-floppers who on one hand keep saying how Republicans suck (we can't trust them anymore! what betrayal! corrupted bunch! etc.) then come back on the other hand to say "but they don't really suck, you know, compare to the evil Democrats/Liberals/Socialists who's responsible for everything that is wrong with America."

    Make up your mind, please. Such an attitude tempts me very much. [addressed to no one in particular]

    In any case, this thread is about Atlanta and/or conflicts involving municipal budgets. From what I've heard, it's a pretty chronically troubled city anyway.
    Well, as somebody who has expressed a similar position (though your depiction of my views rings somewhat distorted), I do in fact take issue with your statement.

    Think of it this way. The Republicans have stated principles that I happen to agree with. Democrats have stated principles that I do not agree with as much. Recently, Democrats have done a better job of more faithfully acting in accordance with their stated principles than the Republicans, who have moved to a corrupt position of utter hypocricy (in my mind).

    So as somebody who's done a a fair amount of thinking and analyzing and who believes that individual liberty and individual responsibility are GOOD things, let me ask you, as you appear to have all the answers.... where should I stand? With the Democrats, who are only somewhat corrupt, but their stated principles and goals I find erroneous (such as the belief that government can make better decisions about my life than I myself can), or Republicans, who pay lip service to my ideals, then act in utter disregard of their own statements?

    Or is it your point that true conservatives (emphasis on the small c) should just shut up? I would caution you that their words may come back to haunt you, when you find your Democrats aren't living up to their ideals either. Before you erroneously leap to the conclusion that I'm saying that Democrats are better at holding to their stated ideals, allow me to disabuse you of that notion, I am not. I would argue it's not a Democrat or Republican characteristic, but a characteristic of the opposition party that they tend to be more prinicipled (staying to their stated goals). Becoming the ruling party corrupts all parties.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 01-25-2007 at 15:30.
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  18. #48
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Back on topic, in order for a meritocracy to function properly, quality education must be available for all. While I agree with local control, a more equitable means of funding school districts must be found. I know this sounds anathema coming from a relatively fiscal conservative such as myself, but I cannot reconcile locally funded school districts with the idea of a level playing field. A quality education is too critical to one's success in life to allow it be brushed aside with things like the Horatio Alger myth. Yes, there are people who defy the odds, but that's exactly what they're doing.

    I will say, however, before anybody starts taking my money and sending it into inner-city schools (which I would actually be open to) they really need to fix other messes in the education system that are unaddressed, such as the monoply enjoyed by the NEA that for 30 years has driven us to third world levels of education. I would say restoring a ratio of 5 teachers to 1 administrator would be a healthy start, instead of the bloated 1:1 system we currently have. And perhaps standardized testing is not the answer, but I never see those who oppose it offer a solution for actually evaluating quality in education. They always make the argument about 'teaching to the test', but at least they're teaching. With no goals and no evaluation, the teachers don't even do that.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 01-25-2007 at 15:39.
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  19. #49
    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
    This "social compact". Is it an implicit one, or an explicit one?

    Surely one could argue that if the rich should give money to the wellbeing, the poor should ensure that the place remains pleasant to live in. People aren't going to move out of a cheerful, crime-free area. A crime ridden one awash with troubles is surely something different, with the contract already in tatters.

    All people have duties as well as rights, no?
    I have no problem with the rich moving away to wherever they want, living in tidy little gated communities, whatever. That's their right. But if they live in the city, they should pay for the city. The dozens of formless "cities" that surround some US Cities are complete fictions. If you work in Metropolis, play in Metropolis, and even say that you are from Metropolis, I would say that you belong to that city. Therefore you should pay for it.

    Now can we rightly incorporate all loosely attached, distant suburbs into a united local government? Of course not. But when we let a group of small-minded party-poopers break off and hoard their shiny little pennies just because they want to, we shoot everyone in the collective foot.

    The social compact, like most things which are truly valuable, is implicit.

  20. #50
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
    I have no problem with the rich moving away to wherever they want, living in tidy little gated communities, whatever. That's their right. But if they live in the city, they should pay for the city. The dozens of formless "cities" that surround some US Cities are complete fictions. If you work in Metropolis, play in Metropolis, and even say that you are from Metropolis, I would say that you belong to that city. Therefore you should pay for it.

    Now can we rightly incorporate all loosely attached, distant suburbs into a united local government? Of course not. But when we let a group of small-minded party-poopers break off and hoard their shiny little pennies just because they want to, we shoot everyone in the collective foot.

    The social compact, like most things which are truly valuable, is implicit.
    Well it's not as if these districts are divorcing themselves completely from their basic civic responsibilities. After all, no matter how a given community realigns itself with respect to districts all residents are still expected to pay their Federal and State taxes. The root of the problem in this particular example is how the local and property taxes are being spent (or rather misspent). It is infuriating to watch a neighboring district make the most out of its treasury while your own is wallowing in debt, inefficiency, etc. and you can do nothing about it.

    Centralization is certainly not the answer, it always leads to inefficiency and bloated bureacracy.
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  21. #51
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    The rich do not have money because individually they are geniuses or individually they are the hardest, smartest workers around. The rich have money because they have earned it from society. It is their right to enjoy their wealth, but they must, by right, use some of it to propel the common good.
    Society gives wealth? And how is that? People earn wealth from individual people due to work - society as you define it is a fiction.

    Kings of old spent their gold for the nation's defense.

    The emporers of Rome built roads and great theatres.

    How can the rich of today escape this timeless and most natural duty?
    Would you, as already pointed out, have the rich be autocrats as well?

    Government is evil but necessary. If it is flawed you must work to fix it, not subvert it. When the rich take their ball and go home, they stop the game for everyone. They violate the social compact. This is inexcusable.
    So you would force them to continue living in a means that is distasteful to them, because of some socialistic ideals? What nonsensical social compact do you speak of? Everyone has the right to stop working and decide they want nothing to do with a certain place.

    Let the county split, and let Atlanta suffer.

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  22. #52
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Society gives wealth? And how is that? People earn wealth from individual people due to work - society as you define it is a fiction.
    Let's see them do that without the framework of society around them.

    Doesn't work all that well in the sample cases I know of, unless drug kings and petty warlords count.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino
    Centralization is certainly not the answer, it always leads to inefficiency and bloated bureacracy.
    Like when it sidelined feudalism and laid the foundations of modern nation-states perhaps ? Or when it is used to eliminate redunant, parallel and overlapping structures in favour of more rationalized ones ? How would you like two-three different police organizations in your neck of the woods, sir ?
    Last edited by Watchman; 01-25-2007 at 22:35.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  23. #53
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Let's see them do that without the framework of society around them.

    Doesn't work all that well in the sample cases I know of, unless drug kings and petty warlords count.
    How right you are. And even drug kings and warlords eat sandwiches, drive on highways and go to the movies. Drug kings in particular need the framework of the law and all sorts of other public institutions in order to find enough paying clients to thrive on.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    I'm pretty sure the poppy-shipping Afghani warlords for example would disagree. The lucrativeness of drug trade rests chiefly on the insane mark-up that stacks along the way due to all the middlemen and proscriptive legislation in the countries where the end-users are.

    The druglords themselves seem to rather prefer dysfunctional societies.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    In the case of drug lords, if we didn't have a justice system and rule of law based on liberal ideals, government death squads would just kill them all.

  26. #56
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    That seems to be rather manifestly failing to happen.

    You seem to be missing the point. In the absence of proper society and governement, the warlords - gang bosses, drug kings, robber barons, whatever - and similar nigh invariably unpleasant strongmen become it by default. Which doesn't really do much good for anyone, themselves included when you really think about it.

    This is pretty much the gist of the barb I originally tossed at Rabbit, who once again seemed to forget how exactly societies and their inhabitants relate to each other.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  27. #57
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
    In the case of drug lords, if we didn't have a justice system and rule of law based on liberal ideals, government death squads would just kill them all.
    Without a justice system and rule of law, government death squads would become drug kings and warlords in no time. Of course some of them already are, but at least they don't rule the country.

    Funny how some people pretend to forget what society is, what it means to them and what it does for them as soon as they have to fulfill their obligations to it. But as soon as they need the fire brigade because their home is on fire, you don't hear them complain at all. They expect a fireman to risk his life for theirs because that's what firemen are paid for. Yeah right.

    It is as if they lived in a vacuum. Well, I suppose they do live in a vacuum of sorts: a moral vacuum.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 01-26-2007 at 16:29.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  28. #58
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Everyone would like a handout, no ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  29. #59
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Everyone would like a handout, no ?
    You mean a copout.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Without a justice system and rule of law, government death squads would become drug kings and warlords in no time.
    Not necessarily. If you had a strong central government which was opposed to drugs, like Afganistan under the Taliban to name one, drug gangs would be severely hampered.

    And if you suspend normal due process, like Honduras did recently with MS-13 gang members, it is fairly easy to identify and eliminate organized gang structures, as long as you have popular support.

    And as a note to Watchman-- drug lords in Afganistan DO depend on wealthy societies in the West for their livelihood, because without those paying customers, there would still be no market and no mark-up for their drugs.

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