Pikes merely an obstacle on elevations

**FactionHeir** · 01-27-2007, 01:34

I've been intrigued by the recent pike fixes, but instead of downloading them, I've done a few tests on vannila pikes on Elevation vs no elevation and have come to an astonishing conclusion:

Pikes only work properly on completely flat terrain.

Only then will they actually kill cavalry/infantry charging into them while braced on impact and actually use their pikes for a little while before using swords to do the rest (and actually quite effectively against knights)

However, on elevated terrain, pikes seem to be merely an obstacle that another unit cannot easily bypass but is simply blocked by - it won't even kill a single cavalry charging into the pikes because the cavalry just keeps charging and charging into thin air, being held at a distance by the pikes. This also means the cav never gets to engage the pikes either.

This is a representative screen I took. I would have taken a video if I could, but this screen shows a Polish early bodyguard unit charging frontal into pikes at an elevation (VH, Redoubt map)
They are being held at a distance and I got bored watching this go on for over 10 minutes and just ended the battle. They just kept running and running and nothing happened.
This occured repeatedly in the tests and only if the cav actually (or rather rarely) managed to break through did the engagement start, but not with pikes but with swords (and somehow those scot pikes are formidable swordsmen against cavalry)

Also, besides pikes jsut holding enemies at a range, those pikes don't do any damage on elevation and/or flat terrain if the enemy just walks into them instead of charging. They can just bypass the pikes entirely by walking the gaps (or getting stuck and keep walking on the spot) and the pikemen in the back rows won't even get the idea of slightly turning their pikes or even using their pikes to stab. It seems medieval pikes are unable to stab at all and are doomed to just hold still like a flagpole.

In conclusion, while many are aware of the pike problem regarding switching to swords, this highlights another problem with pikes that will need some attention.

**pike master** · 01-27-2007, 02:07

yeah i noticed that a while back it seems that the ai for pikes is unfinished. in rome hoplites and pikemen raised and lowered their pole weapons to allow for terrain.

**Carl** · 01-27-2007, 02:16

If you'd swithched guard mode off those pikes would have stabbed fine, the problem is they need to advance forward an inch to stab with those pikes at that point and won't do it if in guard mode due to the mantain postion cluase.

Also, Scots Pikes/Avertous ARE not a good comparision for how good pikes are in vanillia, their sword abilities are 4 or 5 times better than the rest of the pikes and they have armour which only helps them in a sword fight more. Overall when they switch to swords, Noble Pikemen are about 10 times better than unarmoured Pikemen. Also, where you running a Sheild Fix? Because if you wern't that REALLY screws things up as the Swordsmen are actuaklly worse sword fighters than most pikemen then. With it it's a sluaghter.

**FactionHeir** · 01-27-2007, 12:36

Are you sure they maintain position in guard mode? I did this on a full cav vs full pikes test and after a while I noticed some disengaged pikes that were bracing, had the entire unit facing 90° of their original position for some weird reason after having engaged the enemy. Almost like muskets.

I'll run the test again later tonight and see if the pikes do fine on elevation w/o guard mode, but I doubt it.

I'm not running any fixes btw, just my own little balance mods and *shameless plug* my mod in my sig.

**Carl** · 01-27-2007, 13:48

Let the cav finish charging before you take them out of guard mode though, or they won't brace for it properly.

You do get the opdd bit of weirdness like you mentioned, but by and large they won't move and if one dies the replacment will walk to where the guy he's replacing should be in the formation BEFORE he starts attacking.

**pike master** · 01-27-2007, 15:40

dont brace at all but engage them when they charge you will be surprised and they wont be able to roll off of you either

**Philbert** · 01-31-2007, 16:57

This is actually listed in the wishlist for next patch, on the .com forum:
http://p223.ezboard.com/Second-Patch...ID=11973.topic
In item 7 it is suggested that when standing on elevation, the weapons of the higher troops hover over the lower troops and don't touch them.