It's Official Obama is running in '08

[Papewaio]

Even in a just war for a worthy cause, soldiers lives can still be wasted.

Stupid tactics, strategies, logistics, targets etc.

It would be hard to make sure that no lives are wasted... for instance friendly fire could be classed as having a soldiers life wasted.

The issue would be that has the waste been minimised. Using friendly fire, has this been minimised.

[Lemur]

If he really believes that the war was a mistake then he naturally would think that our soldiers lives are being wasted. So why, when called out on the comment does he back away from it so quickly? Is he now trying to claim that they're dying for a worthy cause, yet the war is a mistake and should never have been fought?

He could have made the same point without using a loaded word such as "wasted." Bad thing to say to 3,000 families that have lost a member, and who are hoping to see some sort of point to OIF2.

I can't tell from the discussion back here — DevDave's descending into Colonel Sanders value buckets, Don C is telling me that Obama's only black because he's a Democrat, and that hilarious chick on Colbert says he's really an African-African-American. Is this man black or not? 'Cause, you see, I've evolved past the place where I can see race ...

[Ice]

Is this man black or not? 'Cause, you see, I've evolved past the place where I can see race ...

Does it even matter? I could care if he is black, yellow, green, blue, orange or etc.

I'm not going to vote for him solely because I think:

a) he lacks the necessary experience to be a good president
b)I completely disagree with almost every single one of his policies.

Rudy for President 08.

[Tachikaze]

I am not at all surprised that you support (at least so far) Senator Obama. He is very staunchly on your side of the political perspective on a majority of issues.

When you call race an "illusion," do you mean that race:

a) should be irrelevant as it has no bearing on anything of consequence such as character, intelligence, morality, etc.

b) should be viewed as less than useful since it is nothing but a "social constuction" and is therefore more symptomatic than it is descriptive.

c) a concept without meaning.


I would agree whole-heartedly with "a," would view "b" as correct but not helpful since that can be said of almost any value-laden term, but I would disagree with c).

What say you?

You may have missed a thread in which I explained in detail my reasoning for "illusion".

I would answer both B and C.

I think race is an artificial concept. The lines we draw between racial categories are arbitrary. All "races" are mixed races. There is no pure race. All people are originally from one single ancestral parent and successive generations developed adoptations to various climates. Although large numbers of people share certain characteristics, the lines between populations blur.

Physical characteristics, such as dark skin, epicanthic eyefolds, curly hair, high nosebridges, etc. are shared by multiple races, and not shared by all members of any particular race.

Members within a race have as many differences as members of different races.

Etc.

[Devastatin Dave]

Just wondering Dave:

What do Osama bin Laden and Barack Obama have in common that you would compare them?

And why in this context do you feel your eating fried chicken and watching Oprah have any relevance to the thread topic?

Just curious, you know, because you (as you've told us on so many occasions) are certainly not a racist...

The fried chicken remark was, according to Tachi, the fact that I'm a white male automatically makes me a racist since I won't vote for Osama Obama (the name that Ted Kennedy gave him which you should praise me using since such an wonderful liberal monument like Kennedy said it). I would eat fried chicken as it is a symbolic form of racism the "blacks sustain themselves of fried chicken and watermelon" steroetype.
The Oprah comment was due to me trying to find my male vagina so I can better understand Hilary and I was cused with being born with a penis. I'm just trying my best to live within the prism of other's schism's. Praise Allah.

[Devastatin Dave]

You may have missed a thread in which I explained in detail my reasoning for "illusion".

I would answer both B and C.

I think race is an artificial concept. The lines we draw between racial categories are arbitrary. All "races" are mixed races. There is no pure race. All people are originally from one single ancestral parent and successive generations developed adoptations to various climates. Although large numbers of people share certain characteristics, the lines between populations blur.

Physical characteristics, such as dark skin, epicanthic eyefolds, curly hair, high nosebridges, etc. are shared by multiple races, and not shared by all members of any particular race.

Members within a race have as many differences as members of different races.

Etc.

Then why did you lump all the white people into one race, O' Enlightened One?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You may have missed a thread in which I explained in detail my reasoning for "illusion".

I would answer both B and C.

I think race is an artificial concept. The lines we draw between racial categories are arbitrary. All "races" are mixed races. There is no pure race. All people are originally from one single ancestral parent and successive generations developed adoptations to various climates. Although large numbers of people share certain characteristics, the lines between populations blur.

Physical characteristics, such as dark skin, epicanthic eyefolds, curly hair, high nosebridges, etc. are shared by multiple races, and not shared by all members of any particular race.

Members within a race have as many differences as members of different races.

Etc.

This explanation fits entirely within what I define as category "B." I do think such social constructions are often important as we define our realities through communicative interaction.

On a biological level, you are quite correct. All of these distinctions are inconsistent and shared at least by "outliers" in the other "races." Clear lines of demarcation are approximations at best and insipid at worst. Also, as we know, the percentage of variation genetically is so miniscule as to be statitistically insignificant.

Thanks for catching me up on your take on this.

[KukriKhan]

watching closely.

[Redleg]

watching closely.

Now that is just freaky. Especially when the left eye blinks.

[Geoffrey S]

But this doesn't make Obama any worse than any of the other candidates.

But it does take away one of the largest advantages he has going for him.

[Goofball]

But it does take away one of the largest advantages he has going for him.

But he has others. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the biggest advantages he has, and I'm surprised he's not playing it up more:

He was an early opponent of Bush administration policies on Iraq in times when other Democratic leaders supported the legislation that led to the war. In the fall of 2002 during an anti-war rally at Chicago's Federal Plaza, in a speech alongside Jesse Jackson, Obama notably said:

"I know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors... I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings."

Seems like he was right about everything.

[Don Corleone]

I can't tell from the discussion back here — DevDave's descending into Colonel Sanders value buckets, Don C is telling me that Obama's only black because he's a Democrat, and that hilarious chick on Colbert says he's really an African-African-American. Is this man black or not? 'Cause, you see, I've evolved past the place where I can see race ...

That is not what I said, and I resent the distillation of my argument. What I said was, according to the Democrats I know, yourself excepted, Alan Keyes does not speak as a black man, but Barack Obama does. Why? Because Alan Keyes is a Republican (actually, a Libertarian) and Barack Obama is a Democrat. Vis a vis, because I embrace the message of Alan Keyes, but disagree with Barack Obama (strictly on matters of principle, I think he has done an admirable job, HIMSELF, not playing the race card in his own behalf), I'm somehow racist or bigoted and cannot hear the 'true black message'.

I don't understand how Barrack Obama is any more black or less black than Alan Keyes. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Goofball]

That is not what I said, and I resent the distillation of my argument. What I said was, according to the Democrats I know, yourself excepted, Alan Keyes does not speak as a black man, but Barack Obama does. Why? Because Alan Keyes is a Republican (actually, a Libertarian) and Barack Obama is a Democrat. Vis a vis, because I embrace the message of Alan Keyes, but disagree with Barack Obama (strictly on matters of principle, I think he has done an admirable job, HIMSELF, not playing the race card in his own behalf), I'm somehow racist or bigoted and cannot hear the 'true black message'.

I don't understand how Barrack Obama is any more black or less black than Alan Keyes. That's all I'm trying to say.

Obama:




Keyes:




Hmmm. Based on these pictures, I'd say Keyes is definitely "blacker" than Obama.

I may have to change my vote...

[Tachikaze]

The fried chicken remark was, according to Tachi, the fact that I'm a white male automatically makes me a racist since I won't vote for Osama Obama

Dave, your "logic" is strange. Can you support this statement?

[Redleg]

Dave, your "logic" is strange. Can you support this statement?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...0&postcount=16

Care to guess how I vote for a political leader - give you a hint skin color has nothing to do with it.

Your hypocrisy is disgusting when you speak anything to do with race, your racism is much more ballant then some that I have seen here in the South.

[Tachikaze]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...0&postcount=16

Care to guess how I vote for a political leader - give you a hint skin color has nothing to do with it.

Your hypocrisy is disgusting when you speak anything to do with race, your racism is much more ballant then some that I have seen here in the South.

I see no relationship between the post your referred to and the rest of your post or Dave's.

I mentioned race in five places.

1) "the usual white male with ties to money". This describes just about every president we've had. I could have called them "European-American" or "Anglo-Dutch-American", but "white" is only five letters. Edwards fits this definition, and I think he has the best chance at the moment. If he wins, I think the category "white male" will contribute to his victory.

2) "Afro-Americans were lynched". I don't see this as a racist statement.

3) "'mixed race' marriages were illegal. Not my fault. It's in the archived law books.

4) "racism is hiding under the current facade." I don't see this as a racist statement, either. Would it be less racist to say "there is no racism in the US."?

5) "we might have a president with a black father". If Obama is elected, this is how many Americans will see it (if they are aware of Obama's parentage).

[Redleg]

I see no relationship between the post your referred to and the rest of your post or Dave's.

Probably because you wish not to see it. Your comments smack of hypocrisy on so many levels its just not funny. Whats even more sad is that you think your not a racist.

I mentioned race in five places.

1) "the usual white male with ties to money". This describes just about every president we've had. I could have called them "European-American" or "Anglo-Dutch-American", but "white" is only five letters. Edwards fits this definition, and I think he has the best chance at the moment. If he wins, I think the category "white male" will contribute to his victory.

If he wins its because he had the political and economic backing to win. Where does race fit into that describtion.

2) "Afro-Americans were lynched". I don't see this as a racist statement.

Didn't say it was racist now did I.

3) "'mixed race' marriages were illegal. Not my fault. It's in the archived law books.

Did say it wasn't in the law books now did I?

4) "racism is hiding under the current facade." I don't see this as a racist statement, either. Would it be less racist to say "there is no racism in the US."?

Nothing wrong with this statement either.

5) "we might have a president with a black father". If Obama is elected, this is how many Americans will see it (if they are aware of Obama's parentage).

There you go with the racism. If Obama is elected it is because he was the best candidate for the job as determined by the American People.

So 2 out of the 5 comments there Tachikaze paint you as a racist, because you are using skin color as a definition or a critieria.

So don't get upset when I call you on your hypocrisy. So just so you know where is the average american getting upset about Obama's skin color? I just don't see it. Most comments that I have seen about him focus on his politics not his skin color. However I see you attempting to paint an ugly picture of the average american based upon skin color. Which does indeed fit you into the very definition of the individual that you are complaining about. Using race as a prejudicial or discriminating feature. You have done exactly that in two out for the 5 points that you just mentioned in your previous post.

When you look in the Mirror - are you seeing Archie Bunker yet, because you are sure sounding like him?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I'm not even bothering to reply to your post

oh stupid me I did, ah well:

MEH!!!

I think Vuk may have mis-understood your post, but you don't need to flip out on him Stig,no need mate.


Being the Republican I am, I obliolsuy am backing the Iraq War, so mostly the only beefs I would have with Obama would be with learining he took drugs when he was a kid, and him not Supporting the Iraq War.


Why can't we get a Clean President, who never took drugs, or had some sort of alchol ploblem or inolved in a scandel? You take a Look at Bush,CLintion and now Obama, it just makes me sick. I think Obama could win, I like the guy- expect for the two things above..

[Ice]

I think Vuk may have mis-understood your post, but you don't need to flip out on him Stig,no need mate.


Being the Republican I am, I obliolsuy am backing the Iraq War, so mostly the only beefs I would have with Obama would be with learining he took drugs when he was a kid, and him not Supporting the Iraq War.


Why can't we get a Clean President, who never took drugs, or had some sort of alchol ploblem or inolved in a scandel? You take a Look at Bush,CLintion and now Obama, it just makes me sick. I think Obama could win, I like the guy- expect for the two things above..

You "obviously" aren't a republican if those are you only two beefs with Obama.

Who cares if Obama took drugs when he was younger? His personal life should not matter.

[Kralizec]

Warman, please don't try to use words like "obviously".
Why should a history of alcohol or drug abuse disqualify somebody from office, provided that he/she has reformed?


I'm not sure wether I'd vote for Obama if I had the chance.
Giuliani I know more about, and from what I know I like him a lot. Obama on the other hand, is a pretty new guy- he's inexperienced and what's more, there's no way to know how he'd handle an executive position.
McCain, if he's running, would also be a viable choice for me.

And if the match would be Clinton/Obama vs McCain/Giuliani, my choice would definitely be the latter.

[Xiahou]

Why can't we get a Clean President, who never took drugs, or had some sort of alchol ploblem or inolved in a scandel? You take a Look at Bush,CLintion and now Obama, it just makes me sick. I think Obama could win, I like the guy- expect for the two things above..

Hey, Obama is clean- he's also articulate, bright and nice-looking and, apparently, the first mainstream African-American to be those things.*

*According to a Democrat Senator.

[Goofball]

Hey, Obama is clean- he's also articulate, bright and nice-looking and, apparently, the first mainstream African-American to be those things.*

*According to a Democrat Senator.

Good Lord.

What idiot said that?

[Xiahou]

Good Lord.

What idiot said that?

Joe Biden.

Here's the actual quote:

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,”

Edit: There's tons of commentary on it, but scant little "hard" news stories on it- see for yourself.

I believe Biden is also the same guy who previously said: "you cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent."

[Goofball]

Joe Biden.

Here's the actual quote:

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,”

What a tool...

[drone]

What a tool...

He's also in the running for the Democratic nomination, although his success is very doubtful at this point.

He ran for Prez a while back as well. His campaign got torpedoed by plagarism, IIRC.

[Louis VI the Fat]

he took drugs when he was a kid,

I've heard rumours that Obama also experimented with sex as a teenager.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

He's also in the running for the Democratic nomination, although his success is very doubtful at this point.

He ran for Prez a while back as well. His campaign got torpedoed by plagarism, IIRC.

Quite correct. Caught plagiarizing from .... Tony Blair!

...And you thought only "W" had love in his heart for Tony.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I've heard rumours that Obama also experimented with sex as a teenager.

That's it! Not only can I not vote for him, I will have to rat him out to Falwell and Robertson so they can go Levitican on him.

[Pannonian]

Quite correct. Caught plagiarizing from .... Tony Blair!

...And you thought only "W" had love in his heart for Tony.

What turn of phrase did he nick?

[drone]

From Wikipedia, they say it was Neil Kinnock, Blair's predecessor.

Controversy broke Biden's candidacy for the U.S. presidency in the 1988 Presidential campaign. He ended his presidential campaign on September 23, 1987 after being accused of plagiarism. Most damaging was being caught on video repeating, with only minor modifications, a stump speech by British Labour Party leader Neil Kinnock. “Why is it that Joe Biden is the first in his family ever to go a university? Why is it that my wife . . . is the first in her family to ever go to college? Is it because our fathers and mothers were not bright? . . . Is it because they didn't work hard? My ancestors who worked in the coal mines of northeast Pennsylvania and would come after 12 hours and play football for four hours? It's because they didn't have a platform on which to stand.” It seems his wife was not the first in her family to attend college and Biden's father actually sold cars. Biden didn't actually say his father was a miner, and after Biden withdrew from the race it was learned that he had correctly credited Kinnock on other occasions. But in the Iowa speech that was recorded and distributed to reporters (with a parallel video of Kinnock) by aides to Michael Dukakis, the eventual nominee, he failed to do so. Dukakis fired the senior aides responsible, but Biden's campaign could not recover.

Biden was also accused of committing plagiarism while a freshman at Syracuse University Law School in 1965. He had received an “F” in an introductory class on legal methodology for writing a paper relying almost exclusively on a single Fordham Law Review article, which he had cited. Biden was allowed to repeat the course and passed with high marks. After ending his Presidential campaign Biden requested the Board of Professional Responsibility of the Delaware Supreme Court review the issue. The Board concluded on December 21, 1987, after Biden had withdrawn, that the senator had not violated any rules, although Biden did not release this result until May 1989.