Marie Antoinette

[Shaka_Khan]

I have turned my attention to the French Revolution recently. Plus, the books of Marie Antoinette that appeared in the bookstore caught my attention. I didn't finish the book, but so far I realized that my previous thoughts of her were misconceptions. In fact, many people I know still think she and the king were the targets of the Revolution because they deserved it. I haven't read much about her when I was a kid because I thought it was wierd for a guy to have an interest on a queen.

It turns out that the reality was the opposite. Her husband's reign was actually quite benign when compared to the Medieval and the Rennaisance era of other kingdoms. Civilians were even allowed to visit the halls of the palace freely. In fact, her sister was pro-revolutionary until Antoinette became the target. After the guillotine, her sister became anti-Revolution. Antoinette herself was caring for her subjects. When her horse-drawn carriage accidentally injured a kid, (and she wasn't even driving it herself), she took care of the kid for a long time with his parents' permission. Her enemies changed the story to make the people think she abandoned the boy. I remember reading that old false story when I was a kid, but I forgot what the title was. Then there was Antoinette's most infamous line, the "let them eat cake" comment. This was actually a misunderstood comment that was propagandized by her enemies. She had a lot of enemies because there were many people, (who were actually not poor), who wanted to see the monarchy go away. Plus, she was an Austrian who didn't know about the French customs. She had a tendency to laugh at people, which many interpreted as her ridiculing them. She was also a target for false scandals. Her intimacy with her friends were exaggerated by her enemies. Her lavish spending didn't look good for her either, but I didn't read that part yet, so I don't know about it in detail.

I'm sure there are more to what I said, but like I mentioned before, I didn't finish the book. I'm beginning to feel more and more sorry for her the more I learn about her. The book has changed my view on history. I'm sure there are people today who suffer the sort of things that she went through. People shouldn't jump to the conclusion when they judge someone.

[The Stranger]

I doubt people are really jumping conclusions... when thats what you learn and you got all the facts its just a matter of believing or not... History is written by the victors, you'll almost always get a onesided vieuw of an event... and even when you see it from both sides, both visions are still corrupted by human interpretation and judgement.

[ShadeHonestus]

As stated by many before me, the most important fact about her was that...

*drum roll*

She gave the ultimate head.

*rim shot*

[CountArach]

As stated by many before me, the most important fact about her was that...

*drum roll*

She gave the ultimate head.

*rim shot*

That was aweful...

[Somebody Else]

She is responsible for my champagne boats, and I am eternally grateful.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have turned my attention to the French Revolution recently. Plus, the books of Marie Antoinette that appeared in the bookstore caught my attention.

I'm beginning to feel more and more sorry for her the more I learn about her. The book has changed my view on history.

History has many sides and angles indeed. It is never simple. I think it's great you take an interest into this subject.

I won't shed a tear about M-A though. 'Antoinette herself was caring for her subjects' you say. Well gah. She was a queen, at the height of aristocratic decadence. She cared for her subjects the way people care for their canaries. They want them fed and healthy for their entertainment.

She made the ultimate insult of the aristocrtatic regime by building le Hameau de la Reine, 'the hamlet of the queen'. This was a mock village, quaint little country homes were she could play 'peasant'. As if she was playing with dolls. The cows were washed, the sheep perfumed, the cottages luxurious inside. M-A however thought this was a good rendition of the much simpler pastoral life she was apparently so envious of.

Meanwhile blissfully ignoring that real peasants witnessed their children starve under the yoke of an immense tax burden. Taxes who were spend on warfare to enlarge noble estates or on maintaining the luxury of the aristocracy - who could then 'play peasant' with it.

Alas, this is neither the monastery or the backroom, or I'd conclude with some well-deserved stories about the guillotine here. None as good as that joke by ShadeHonestus though.

[Shaka_Khan]

I'm glad I didn't post this in the backroom. It's good how the guillotine was described as it was, and not too much.

Anyway, thanks. I was waiting to hear the different side to this.
It seems that she didn't know much about the world outside the aristocracy. I would blame someone else on the tax to support the warfare, but you're right about how her luxuries were a burden to the peasants.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Both our opinions of her are correct, are relevant. I think the truth here is not in the middle, but in accepting that historical events or individual people have many different sides, facets, narratives.

Please do visit Versailles if you ever get the opportunity. Her bedroom, furniture, some wardrobe is all still intact. You can literally follow in her footsteps, visit her favourite places, see little things she held dear, and really get a feel for what it was like, for what her world looked like from the inside.

[Mooks]

I would not envy a woman in 18th century france. That mustve been a very boring life.

[AntiochusIII]

I would not envy a woman in 18th century france. That mustve been a very boring life.

Well, the aristocrats had much to entertain themselves with. Toys, shiny stuff, social gossips, etc. If only the fancy fairy tale lives didn't come from the starving peasants of an entire nation, neh.

But you're essentially right. They led very pointless lives. Few touched the "real" politics in any meaningful way.

Marie Antoinette, well, she just happened to be one aristocratic girl right in a very bad time to be an aristocratic girl. To judge her, it essentially comes down to whether you blame the surroundings for the failings of an individual -- a sheltered, delusional world that the French aristocrats of the Louis' era tend to make people air-headed -- or the individual for her own failings, or both. One could say she wasn't an inherently bad person like in evil overlord or oppressive in nature: the "let them eat cake" thing is propaganda. But her outlook isn't particularly nice from our context. Her peasants and all that. Bloody nobles.

Of course, being guillotined for that wasn't very nice either. But it's a revolution they had back then; you gotta do what you gotta do.

It's also very interesting that quite a few of the more "progressive" of the European monarchs, intellectuals, and other members of the rich were quite reluctant to oppose the French Revolution until the monarchs had their heads cut off. France wasn't exactly the most beloved nation in the world. More like envied. And not a few wouldn't mind seeing her implode. Explode, though...

[/soapbox]

By the way, what do you [general audience you] think of that Marie Antoinette movie a while back?

[Martok]

By the way, what do you [general audience you] think of that Marie Antoinette movie a while back?

I'm curious about this as well. Given that it stars Kirsten Dunst, I've been afraid to even watch it.

[Papewaio]

Taxes who were spend on warfare to enlarge noble estates or on maintaining the luxury of the aristocracy - who could then 'play peasant' with it.

What was the tax rate then and what is it now? What percentage is spent on heads of state then and now?

I can imagine that we might have higher taxes but be so far above the poverty line that it doesn't matter. Taking the a third of what someone has when they only can afford a meal a day is evil. Taking 4/5ths of someone who eats so much they are obese is doing them a favour.

[ShadeHonestus]

Taking 4/5ths of someone who eats so much they are obese is doing them a favour.

Pinko...

[Mooks]

What is really interesting though, is how in Napolean's armies peasants could become great marshalls based on military achievements.

What disqusts me though. Is the lifestyle of the nobility back then. Iv seen the dresses and the fancy ball paintings, turns a knife in my stomach. Gah, they painted their faces white.

[ShadeHonestus]

What disqusts me though. Is the lifestyle of the nobility back then. Iv seen the dresses and the fancy ball paintings, turns a knife in my stomach. Gah, they painted their faces white.

And today we get 1000 piercings per square inch, tatoo ass hats on our backs, and tan ourselves into a lovely shade of orange in an attempt to date back to the earliest days of civilization. Give it another 100 years, the pasty white faces and petticoats will be back in vogue....honest.

[Papewaio]

Pinko...

And?

Seriously I wasn't agreeing with the tax rates, they have to be put in context with what they could afford to live with after being taxed... and what they got back from said taxes. The rate by themselves doesn't say much.

[Marshal Murat]

I really have to say I dislike her.

I'm the one in the reading of the Scarlet Pimpernel, who whoops for joy every time a lord or lady is killed, hacked, guillotined, and when the French agent gets one up on the Scarlet Pompous.

I think Marie Antoinette was really to much a ignorant person who happened to be Queen at a time of revolution.
She was Austrian in a French Court, not knowledgeable of the customs and ways, and payed for it, in a very literal way...

OF WITH HER HEAD!
I say we make a mafia game

[Pannonian]

I'm curious about this as well. Given that it stars Kirsten Dunst, I've been afraid to even watch it.

Is it the looks or the acting that makes her scary?

[Mooks]

And today we get 1000 piercings per square inch, tatoo ass hats on our backs, and tan ourselves into a lovely shade of orange in an attempt to date back to the earliest days of civilization. Give it another 100 years, the pasty white faces and petticoats will be back in vogue....honest.

tatoo ass hats? What are those?

[ShadeHonestus]

tatoo ass hats? What are those?

Name given by some to those little inked hats for asses, tatoos located on the extreme lower back.

[drone]

Name given by some to those little inked hats for asses, tatoos located on the extreme lower back.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65633

[Martok]

Is it the looks or the acting that makes her scary?

A little from column A, and a *lot* from from column B.