Tired units and stats

[Caerfanan]

OK, simple and quick question: I haven't seen anything about this in the forum (but I'm pretty new and don't now every place here!)

Does anyone knows the exact effects of being tired on a unit, regarding attack/defence/speed and such?

Thanks all!

[caravel]

Very Tired = Morale -3
Exhausted = Morale -6
Totally Exhausted = Morale -8

Quite Tired = Attack -2
Very Tired = Attack -3 and Defence -1
Exhausted = Attack -4 and Defence -2
Totally Exhausted = Attack -6 and Defence -3

Your units can no longer run once Exhausted

[Caerfanan]

Very Tired = Morale -3
Exhausted = Morale -6
Totally Exhausted = Morale -8

Quite Tired = Attack -2
Very Tired = Attack -3 and Defence -1
Exhausted = Attack -4 and Defence -2
Totally Exhausted = Attack -6 and Defence -3

Your units can no longer run once Exhausted

Ooops, hadn't seen that post when writing five minutes ago! Thanks a lot Cambyses II!!!

That means that totally exhausted Berserkers are 0 attack, 2 defence, and 4 morale. that explains a LOT.

[Caerfanan]

Ah, and, err, and do you know if this shows up if you press the F1 key?

If you have an exhausted unit on hold formation attacked from behind by a hidden unit, there are a lot of modifiers applied to the unit. Do those modifiers stack and are seen on the help (F1) screen?

[Deus ret.]

I really understand that an ongoing battle drains on a unit's reservoir of strength and thus it seems quite logical that it doesn't get over 2 bars again. now there are two things I don't quite get:

1.) even in the most favorable climate, units lose endurance while doing nothing but standing around. not even for exorbitant spans of time. of course, they don't recover this loss again, meaning that some time into the battle (usually 15 minutes) they'll be "quite tired" without having done ANYTHING.

2.) reinforcements arrive on the field with the same max endurance as an inactive unit on the field would have at the time the "fresh" troops enter the field. i.e. bringing in reinforcements midway through a battle will not provide an influx of well-rested reserve units but just some more of those worn-out veterans which you wanted to get off the battlefield since they had used up most of their strength.
this is the main reason why I seldomly rely on reinforcements (except for fresh ammo) and why their implementation seems somewhat miscarried to me.

[Caerfanan]

1.) even in the most favorable climate, units lose endurance while doing nothing but standing around. not even for exorbitant spans of time. of course, they don't recover this loss again, meaning that some time into the battle (usually 15 minutes) they'll be "quite tired" without having done ANYTHING.

Eeewww. Eeeeewwww. I gotta see it happening.

Eeeew.

On second thought, it does make sense. Standing up clad in armor with a weapon at the ready does tire oneself.

2.) reinforcements arrive on the field with the same max endurance as an inactive unit on the field would have at the time the "fresh" troops enter the field. i.e. bringing in reinforcements midway through a battle will not provide an influx of well-rested reserve units but just some more of those worn-out veterans which you wanted to get off the battlefield since they had used up most of their strength.
this is the main reason why I seldomly rely on reinforcements (except for fresh ammo) and why their implementation seems somewhat miscarried to me.

Uuuh. Still refering on this 2h30 battle against mercians I had with my mighty scottish armies, I noticed that the reinforcements were arriving fresh on the corner of the map. As I made them run to the rally point, they were tired (two bars) when ready to act, but I've seen the bars disappear during their run. I don't think that the reserve is tiring itself. It's by walking/running to the rally point that they get tired (I hope. Eeewww.)

[caravel]

Ah, and, err, and do you know if this shows up if you press the F1 key?

If you have an exhausted unit on hold formation attacked from behind by a hidden unit, there are a lot of modifiers applied to the unit. Do those modifiers stack and are seen on the help (F1) screen?

I'm not sure if you can see any of this with the F1 key, I would say so. Interesting...

Awww, the climate has an influence, Cambyses II? Yeah, I guess that a knight in full armor can't recover much in the desert... I have to play out of the viking campaign, but...can't...get...out!

Armour in the desert is the killer. Armoured units will tire to total exhaustion, just from standing there, at an alarming rate. They won't recover their strength at all, which is why in this situation you need to get on with it, rather quickly, though without running or marching too far or up too many hills. Even then, the enemy HA's will probably lead you on a merry dance.

I really understand that an ongoing battle drains on a unit's reservoir of strength and thus it seems quite logical that it doesn't get over 2 bars again. now there are two things I don't quite get:

1.) even in the most favorable climate, units lose endurance while doing nothing but standing around. not even for exorbitant spans of time. of course, they don't recover this loss again, meaning that some time into the battle (usually 15 minutes) they'll be "quite tired" without having done ANYTHING.

Units will never recover more than 2 bars. This is to define the difference between fresh troops and those that have been standing around waiting for all day, watching the enemy lines without rest, water or food. Standing to arms is probably very tiring.

2.) reinforcements arrive on the field with the same max endurance as an inactive unit on the field would have at the time the "fresh" troops enter the field. i.e. bringing in reinforcements midway through a battle will not provide an influx of well-rested reserve units but just some more of those worn-out veterans which you wanted to get off the battlefield since they had used up most of their strength.
this is the main reason why I seldomly rely on reinforcements (except for fresh ammo) and why their implementation seems somewhat miscarried to me.

The reinforcements always arrive at 2 bars IIRC (bad news if you're in the desert as those two will probably vanish from just deploying the units into position). This is probably to reflect the fact that they have also been waiting around (MTW doesn't have the greatest reinforcements system).

[Don Esteban]

Great question. It definitely seems to have a negative effect on attack but I'm not sure just how much. My exhausted troops can usually still finish off enemy reinforcements if they have routed the first waves.

[Caerfanan]

Great question. It definitely seems to have a negative effect on attack but I'm not sure just how much. My exhausted troops can usually still finish off enemy reinforcements if they have routed the first waves.

Yes, but an exhausted 4/4 unit is usually bashed by a 2/2 fresh unit!!! and I'd like to be able to consider when a unit can handle a situatio alone, and when it can't. The only things I know for sure:
- an exhausted unit cannot run (an exhausted cavalry unit cannot avoid combat against an infantry unit)
- when you go down to less than two bars according to exhaustion, resting on the field will make you go up to two bars, no more.

[Adrian II]

Yes, but an exhausted 4/4 unit is usually bashed by a 2/2 fresh unit!!! and I'd like to be able to consider when a unit can handle a situatio alone, and when it can't.

Generally speaking, an exhausted unit can do little more than hold its ground, preferably in a square or deep-ranked formation, and on both 'Hold formation' and 'Hold position'.

BTW I have seen cavalry go back up from 'Totally Exhausted' to 'Quite Tired' within the span of one battle. Don't know about inf.

[caravel]

Depending on climate and armour, 0 bar units can get back to 2 bars from resting.

[Caerfanan]

Generally speaking, an exhausted unit can do little more than hold its ground, preferably in a square or deep-ranked formation, and on both 'Hold formation' and 'Hold position'.

BTW I have seen cavalry go back up from 'Totally Exhausted' to 'Quite Tired' within the span of one battle. Don't know about inf.

Adrian II, For the freshness recovery, I'm 100% sure. My huge battles against the mercians made me test this for cavs and inf (Highlanders can run after a fleing infantry unit! ). It's working for every unit. If it stays put for long enough, it will regain two bars. what are the names in English? Fresh=>A bit tired=> Quite Tired=>Tired=> Totally Exhausted?

Awww, the climate has an influence, Cambyses II? Yeah, I guess that a knight in full armor can't recover much in the desert... I have to play out of the viking campaign, but...can't...get...out!

[Adrian II]

Adrian II, For the freshness recovery, I'm 100% sure.

Alright. I could have sworn to the three bars, but I bow before your persistence

What are the names in English? Fresh=>A bit tired=> Quite Tired=>Tired=> Totally Exhausted?

Fresh => Quite Fresh => Quite Tired => Very Tired => Exhausted => Totallty Exhausted.

And yes, climate has a big influence. After five minutes in the Egyptian sun your CS is a medium steak and your Hospitaller a well-done kebab.

[Knight of the Temple]

The following is a post from the Numerology thread over at the official forum. It gives an indication of how the desert heat affects idle units with different armour levels.

"New test results on boiling factor for desert fighting give the following figures:

Cavalry Armour Level 2&3 (depletion 50%/recovery 50%)
Cavalry Armour Level 4&5 (depletion 75%/recovery 25%)
Cavalry Armour Level 6&+ (depletion 100%/recovery 0%)

Infantry Armour Level 1&2 (depletion 50%/recovery 50%)
Infantry Armour Level 3&4 (depletion 75%/recovery 25%)
Infantry Armour Level 5&+ (depletion 100%/recovery 0%)

Cav armour 5 will tire faster than 4, Infantry armour 4 will tire faster than 3. Depletion meaning the amount of energy that will be lost, even when idle, recovery meaning the amount of energy that can be regained when resting the unit.

NB I've used random units to check this, I haven't tested all units in the game, but the factors can be considered as a rule of thumb."

So, an armour spectrum of 1-4 for infantry and 2-5 for cavalry is something you should generally stick within if you want to fight well in the desert---sticking to 1-2 for infantry and 2-3 for cavalry is optimal energy wise but you're left weaker defensively. Armour 3-4 for infantry and 4-5 cavalry will give you stronger units for fighting but you have to use them more carefully and sparingly.

I have to gripe and say that it hacks me off you can't really use knights to 'crusade' in the Holy Land . . . even the Templars---who were founded in Jerusalem, in a hot climate---are too heavy to fight with, which spoils a lot for me. These knights can and did fight in such conditions---yes, they would tire, but this is too exaggerated in the game for me. What also doesn't help is that you cannot train knights without their default armour upgrades! Being able to train knights with less armour would help somewhat, especially in the case of Feudal Knights, and the fact that such units do appear in the game with no armour upgrades sometimes shows that upgrades aren't really essential. It would be much better to be able to train and equip knights with appropriate armour, and this could be done to some extent by not making armourer buildings required to train them---and if you want them with more armour you can build such buildings yourself. That way you could definitely use Feudal Knights to good effect in the desert. Templars should simply have less armour to begin with. (I know I can mod these things, which I probably will someday.)

That said, you can still use knights in the desert as they are, but they get wasted so fast the whole experience just becomes crap. Feudal Knights though, you can just about use them as their armour is 6. You can even use 'high' Royal Knights with no armour upgrades for a short while, as their armour is 7. So, you can still use heavier units in the desert, but only if you deploy them in your first wave and you use them carefully and quickly. If you're slow moving tactically then forget about using heavy units in the desert!

EDIT: Just to add on . . . I train Mounted Sergeants as my desert knights. With extra valour from the Master Horse Breeder (it also hacks me off that knights get no bonus from this!), and at least one weapon upgrade, they are as powerful as standard Feudal Knights. Mounted Sergeants have the same charge bonus as knights, and with 1 valour and a weapon upgrade their attack is 4---the same as FK. I give them bronze armour (giving them 5 total), making them a heavy unit in desert conditions, but not so heavy they become useless. And on top of that they're almost as brave as normal knights, with a valour of 6 (2 default, 2 from extra valour, 2 from Church). So that's what I have to resort to because normal knights are just too heavy . . . and crusading without proper knights is a major thumbs down, which is why I always at least take some FK with me anyway, even if they're only good for one charge and one fight.

[gunslinger]

I know I'm far from the first to say this, but sheesh, why can't they just leave their armor behind with the supply train before the battle?

[Judge]

Not everyone is as mad as them Fanatics ya know

[Caerfanan]

I know I'm far from the first to say this, but sheesh, why can't they just leave their armor behind with the supply train before the battle?

Yup, that could've been one improvement in the game. Same stuff as dismount: disarmor!

[The Unknown Guy]

(Striptease, rather)

[Caerfanan]

(Striptease, rather)

Augh... Sorry for this one off topic post, but I'm not very much into sweat and hair and muscles!