AI Crusades - No Desertion?!

[KHPike]

Hmm. Back after a long vacation with a new post!

I was playing as Venice and seized Constatinople. In an attempt to drain the armies of the other Catholic factions to the Middle East I asked the Pope to call on a Crusade to far-off Tripoli , where the Mongols and Egyptians were waiting.

I tried to drain the Crusader armies via desertion - I blocked the over-sea paths with my ships at the Sea of Marmara. While some armies opted for the long tough paths through the steppes and africa, the Pope sent 3 stacks to Constatinople (my Pope had been turned aggressive by Milan).

Usually desertion sets in within 5-10 turns. However, the Papal full stacks consisting of papal and swiss guard lingered around Constatinople for almost 30 turns (0.5 timescale) without any apparent desertion of troops, as no new mercenaries or troops changes were observed.

Sick and tired of the lingering presence, I assassinated the generals of those stacks. However, I was surprised to find that the armies didn't desert - instead they simply turned into normal full stacks.

I have noted that assissinating generals of some other Crusading factions does cause desertion though.

So, is the above a bug, "game-feature" or simply because of something I overlooked?

[Razor1952]

I can't answer question, but it would seem an interesting strategy. Did the ai's armies change composition, or are they refilling their stacks?

[KHPike]

Surely they're not filling stacks again. The armies were full of Papal and Swiss Guard.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

You didn't say what difficulty you are playing.

Playing Vh I have never seen the AI loose units to desertion although they do get the red strike indicating impending threat of desertion. Perhaps someone can say for sure if they do.

and on Vh assassinating a crusading family member seems to do nothing as the next turn they magically appear with a new one.

[KHPike]

It's M/M.

[dumas]

I have noted that assissinating generals of some other Crusading factions does cause desertion though.

Really? In my experience, the AI crusaders never desert. And if you kill the general of the crusading army, they always turn to regular(non-crusading) troops.

[KHPike]

Well, except for the Pope's armies, it seemed to me that the other armies without a general showed the cross with the red streak and disappeared after that. What you say may be true as the army may have disppeared from my sight.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

And if you kill the general of the crusading army, they always turn to regular(non-crusading) troops.

One of the problems with Vh is insta-generals that the AI gets.
Captains in enemy lands magically turn into general lead armies and just as you organized a small force to deal with them the AI decides tha captain should be a general which recruits all the mercs in the area so you have to retreat and organize a new larger force.

also assassinating a general that returns turn after turn until eventually he has enough piety and command that assassination is no longer an option. Same for crusading armies, insta-crusaders.

You invest so much in near useless assassins (unless you reload) and all for nothing because of ridiculous AI bonuses.

[sapi]

I've never had troubles with killing a general in battle not destroying the army, but have seen assassination fail.

Similarly, i've seen armies desert, but not because of me blocking them, but rather excommunication. A 20-unit french army on my border went to a 1 general stack thanks to problems with the papacy in my byz campaign

[Whacker]

Really? In my experience, the AI crusaders never desert. And if you kill the general of the crusading army, they always turn to regular(non-crusading) troops.

My opinion is, if true, that specific behavior is a bug. If a crusading general dies, then at the very least all crusade-specific units should be disbanded and the stack reverts back to a normal army (and any and all penalties associated with being on other's territory, assuming they're on someone else's land when this happens). Ideally the whole stack would be forfeit due to demoralization given the special situation they are in, but I could go either way.

Personally, I've never kept an eye on AI crusading armies to see about desertion, nor did I crusade myself that much (2 times total). All things equal, I think the AI should be held to the exact same standards as the human player, in terms of desertion, recruitment, and progress requirements. Someone else in another thread had a situation where a crusading stack was blocking the only access into a target city (Venice?) and refused to budge, and the stack was not losing people to desertion. I'm all in favor of the general desertion mechanic, but from reading others posts and experiences it would seem that it's poorly implemented at best (esp. in terms of moving by water).

Cheers

[ASPER THE GREAT]

Yep, I have just seen this last night but it was with the "Dane's". I got ex-com by Pope and Dane's/Hungry join crusade against "Trousels" I started to build forts along the mountain passes and bridges to block the "Hung's" and slow them down so they would loose guys to desertion and the Dane's just sat up by "Hamburg" not moving. I was invading the Dane's I had 3 full stacks hanging around getting ready to wack them they never moved and no one deserted or joined them. I waited about 3 or 4 turns Pope died ex-com lifted so I crushed them and the Hung's.....and got ex-comed the next 2 turns by my own Pope for doing it . BUT "yea" they never lost a guy to desertion? Maybe the AI dose not have that problem???

[FactionHeir]

I can confirm that the AI does nto lose troops due to desertion.
Not quite sure about whether they will not desert if you assassinate the leading general or not though as each time I did that within the next 2 turns the AI would mysteriously spawn a new general at that position and abandon the crusade.

[Kraggenmor]

Aye. The AI definitely does not lose troops to desertion and it creates situations like this in my games where I feel tempted to 'cheat' in order to counter this huge advantage the AI gets.

Playing as Venice and having the usual on and off war with Sicily. My pope dies and the newly elected pope was, of course, Sicilian and Venice's papal standing immediately plummeted.

Just because I felt like making nice, I complied with the papal edict for a cessation of hostilites. I then regrouped the armies previously at war with Sicily then solicited for, and the pope granted, a crusade against Moorish held Cordoba.

I chose Cordoba in the hopes of drawing HRE troops in that direction since, in the turns leading up to my calling for the crusade, the HRE had made aggressive moves into Venetian territory. Things like, laying a token seige on Milan and moving a very large stack from Zagreb toward Ragusa.

I joined the crusade immediately after it was granted and moved directly to Cordoba, this took - iirc - five total turns. The HRE did join the crusade not long after it was called.

The HRE troops that joined the crusade was the now full stack of troops that was,by then, sitting outside Ragusa.

As I said it took me approx five turns to reach Cordoba. On arriving, and knowing full well that as soon as the crusade is over those HRE troops outside Ragusa would beseige it, I determined to let the seige run its full seven turn course to the city's surrender.

Cordoba was a turn or two from falling when I called it a night last night.

The HRE "crusade army" has remained stedfastly parked outside Ragusa the ENTIRE TIME!!! It has not moved save to switch from one side of the castle to the other. Made NO attempt to move toward the crusade target, and not lost a single soldier to desertion and all the while, not paying a single florin to support that unmoving stack.



What a pile of [censored]!

[magnum]

What Kraggenmor describes is the only part of what the AI can do with crusades that bothers me. I have on many occasions found AI crusade armies moving in the opposite direction of the target so they can sit next to one of my cities until such time as the crusade ends. Once it does they will attack me the following turn. Cheesy to say the least. Other than that though I'm willing to grant no desertion to the AI as it has enough problems as is.

[DVX BELLORVM]

I once had a never-ending crusade because the French crusading army was sailing in the waters near Antwerp, disembarking from time to time, and getting back aboard. Not a single unit deserted.

I never figured what were they doing there, since the target of a crusade was in the Holy Lands.

Finally the general died of old age, and the whole army returned to France. The crusade ended.

I was playing on M/M.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

It is a pity that the AI doesn't has to apply to the same rules as the human player when crusading. They don't lose units through desertion. This takes away the strategic advantage of blocking them. I have seen crusading stacks existing only of a lonely general. ??? Did he lose units because of desertion of did start a crusade all by himself? I had Constantinople attacked by the king of Hungary with no other units in his army. His army (ahum bodyguard) marched from Sophia to Constantinople.

[magnum]

It takes a stack of 8 units to start a crusade (at least 1 general and then 7 other units, general or other). If you remove a normal unit from a crusade it will desert. I've never seen the AI remove normal units from a crusade. However, if you remove a general from a crusade (i.e. you have 2 or more generals in a crusade army and remove one of them) then you end up with a 1 unit crusade army composed of the general. Generals will not desert and you can add units to his crusade army.