Pikemen vs. Swordsmen - an analysis

[NefariousWolf]

After playing a good chunk of the way through a long Scottish campaign, I began to become intrigued with the mechanics of pikemen and how to use them, especially since much of their behavior and performance were baffling.

I set up a custom battle (VH) on a flat and mostly obstacle free plain between Scottish Heavy Pike Militia (exp3) and Armored Swordsmen (exp3) using vanilla M2TW.

I *always* used 4 deep rows of pikes. The swordsmen had 5 or 6 deep rows and charged head-on at me regardless of what I did.

I used 4 different strategies for meeting this threat.
1. Spear Wall - hold : My pikemen had spearwall and guard mode enabled and just sat 4 deep waiting for the attack.

2. Spear Wall - attack : Again spearwall and guard mode enabled and waited for the attack, but this time I single-clicked the swordsmen shortly after their charge (ie once the casualties from their charge registered on the unit card)

3. Spear Wall - advance : With spearwall and guard mode enabled, I formed 4 deep and then singleclicked on the enemy spearmen.

4. Infantry Charge : Disregarding pikes, i disabled spearwall and guard mode and just charged the enemy with swords. This case is our placebo as it does not include any pikes and allows us to gauge the effect adding pikes has to the battle.

I ran 10 tests for each. Results are given as (casualties sustained)/(casualties inflicted) and then V for victory (heh) or D for defeat

Spear Wall|-Spear Wall-|Spear Wall-|--Infantry
hold:----| attack: -| advance: | Charge
V(24/58); V(51/59); V(31/58); D(59/28);
V(16/59); V(25/52); V(32/52); D(63/27);
V(23/53); V(44/57); V(68/61); D(71/43);
V(27/58); V(30/55); V(73/61); D(66/52);
V(36/58); V(23/54); V(33/52); D(64/35);
V(55/60); V(27/58); D(74/47); D(62/34);
D(67/37); V(46/57); V(52/56); D(65/27);
D(63/42); V(30/52); V(54/59); D(60/35);
V(53/53); V(42/59); V(59/60); D(41/27);
V(32/38); V(36/56); D(71/35); D(65/36);
-------------------------------------------------------
An Infantry Charge clearly is the worst approach, but no surprise there. Spear Wall - hold or attack seem to be a bit better than Spear Wall advance. Though the test isn't really conclusive on Spear Wall - hold or attack, my gut feel is that attack will work better in general because it motivates those guys sitting at the ends of the line to move. I think it was stationary end guys who caused the two catastrophic defeats in Spear Wall - hold.

I didn't experiment with taking guard mode off, but I doubt that will help as guard mode only really comes into effect once the enemy flees. When ordered to attack a unit, the pikemen will attack and follow through regardless of guard mode. (right?)

What this means is that pikemen can hold up to superior swordsmen and almost always cause a stalemate or an outright victory, depending on how they are directed to conduct the attack and various random elements. I am not a history buff. However, this seems plausible to me and a good balance to the game. Pikemen must maintain a rigid formation or they go down like sheep, as we saw in the Infantry Charge. To balance that, they must be able to *always* win in melee when the circumstances are ideal for them, ie a solid formation and a head-on attack. Therefore, I'm happy with how they're currently balanced in this regard.

HOWEVER, the shield bug fix will dramatically change the outcome of these tests. Since the shield strength is currently being subtracted from the swordsmen, it is not hard to imagine what will happen when it's added as it should be. I ran a quick test of Spear Wall hold with the LTC mod which has the shield 'fix', and the pikemen were unceremoniously slaughtered. If CA is going to fix the shield bug, they're absolutely going to have to address pikemen as well (this may be why they are taking so long on the shield bug fix). *(Lusted, have you seen any problems with pikemen in LTC?)

The reason that the shield bug actually results in a balance between pikemen and swordsmen is that pikemen are horrendously bugged as well. I made several observations by watching the same battle play out 40 some odd different ways, some more or less startling than others.
1. Generals cause outliers in the statistics. Because they are so powerful in relation to the other characters, their position, which is mostly happenstance, can greatly influence the outcome. If anybody knows how to exclude the general from a test battle, I'd love to know how. (This doesn't have anything to do with pikemen, just an aside).

2. Pikemen don't always attack with their pikes when it seems like they should. The pikeman who actually gets a stab in with a pike is more the exception than the rule. Pikemen will sit, staring at an enemy engaged in a running animation who is stationary at the point of his pike (a la MC Hammer), and not attack him. This is annoying when it's only some of the pikemen. An extreme example which happened twice in 40 runs (that's 1 out of every 20 times) is when the swordsmen all get stuck like this. The pikemen hold the pikes without attacking and the swordsmen, though in the run animation, aren't moving beyond the tip of the pike, and the battle does not end. Literally. I've got a saved replay of this if anyone is curious.

3. Pikemen throw down their pikes too quickly. Everybody who uses pikes knows this. You see a whole row of pikemen one person removed from combat who could be poking about with sticks and instead are shuffling their sword from hand to hand waiting for their turn to die.

4. Pikes do not seem to reflect charge damage as they should. The way it should work is that 60 armored swordsmen barreling into 75 pointy sticks should result in many dead armored swordsmen. The actual result is that one or two swordsmen stumble and fall, and almost the entire front row of pikemen, whether actually attacked or not, perish beneath the strength of the charge. This seems like a pretty clear bug. Charging damage against spears should be relfected back on the chargers.

**************THE FINAL WORD********************
Pikemen are currently balanced. They are stationary or slow-moving defensive units which should be used to fend off attacks, not conduct attacks. Their flanks need to be protected by other melee units, their formation must be strictly kept, and they must not be exposed to missile fire. But then they can fight off almost anything that comes at them and for generally a fraction of the recruitment cost.

HOWEVER, with the impending shield bug fix (*hopefully* impending?), pikemen will be slaughtered wholesale unless their own bugs are corrected.
*************************************************

Questions and comments encouraged.

[Carl]

but I doubt that will help as guard mode only really comes into effect once the enemy flees. When ordered to attack a unit, the pikemen will attack and follow through regardless of guard mode. (right?)

Wrong, it has BIG effects on their killing power, the stuck thing you noticed never happens when they are out of guard mode. They also tend to cause more kils per second on average.

The problem is they tend to drop their pikes for swords even more easilly which makes the better kiling power of their pikes tottally redundent.

[guyfawkes5]

If anybody knows how to exclude the general from a test battle, I'd love to know how. (This doesn't have anything to do with pikemen, just an aside).

Try creating two generals bodyguards with the general in them and placing them far away from the battle. This would only work with human players though, as obviously the computer won't be so 'co-operative' in exluding his general from the battle.

[R'as al Ghul]

1. Generals cause outliers in the statistics. Because they are so powerful in relation to the other characters, their position, which is mostly happenstance, can greatly influence the outcome. If anybody knows how to exclude the general from a test battle, I'd love to know how. (This doesn't have anything to do with pikemen, just an aside).

I always buy several units of the same sort for each side when testing. Like 5 including the general. All of the same kind.
The game will set up two neat lines opposing each other with the general unit behind. The 4 units in the line will fight out the test battle while the general does nothing. As soon as he enters the melee, usually when one unit routs, I abort and take notes. If one general dies in the battle your results are skewed from there on.

[NefariousWolf]

Wrong, it has BIG effects on their killing power, the stuck thing you noticed never happens when they are out of guard mode. They also tend to cause more kils per second on average.

The problem is they tend to drop their pikes for swords even more easilly which makes the better kiling power of their pikes tottally redundent.

I'd love to see the statistics you used and the average you arrived at. Feel free to post.

As for the stuck thing, I found that only happens with Spear Wall - hold, not Spear Wall - attack, both of which use guard mode. Have you run 40 someodd identical battles between pike's with guard mode disabled calmly awaiting infantry to see if the stuck thing really doesn't happen? If you have, again, I'd love to see the statistics you ended up with.

[General Zhukov]

Pikemen are currently balanced. They are stationary or slow-moving defensive units which should be used to fend off attacks, not conduct attacks. Their flanks need to be protected by other melee units, their formation must be strictly kept, and they must not be exposed to missile fire. But then they can fight off almost anything that comes at them and for generally a fraction of the recruitment cost.

You'll get little sympathy for this reasonable conclusion around here. Setting aside the facts that pikes are dirt cheap, halt cavalry charges, and kill enemy infantry at a decent rate even with their sidearms, they don't poke enuff.

HOWEVER, with the impending shield bug fix (*hopefully* impending?), pikemen will be slaughtered wholesale unless their own bugs are corrected.

That was my first impression after reading the preliminary fixlist: pikes will veer into the ditch without further tweaking.

[FactionHeir]

2. Pikemen don't always attack with their pikes when it seems like they should. The pikeman who actually gets a stab in with a pike is more the exception than the rule. Pikemen will sit, staring at an enemy engaged in a running animation who is stationary at the point of his pike (a la MC Hammer), and not attack him. This is annoying when it's only some of the pikemen. An extreme example which happened twice in 40 runs (that's 1 out of every 20 times) is when the swordsmen all get stuck like this. The pikemen hold the pikes without attacking and the swordsmen, though in the run animation, aren't moving beyond the tip of the pike, and the battle does not end. Literally. I've got a saved replay of this if anyone is curious.

Sad thing is, this not only happens to infantry charging the pikes but also to cavalry. Its really funny/sad to watch cavalry running on the spot against pikes and not taking casualties and constantly in charge mode.

[R'as al Ghul]

Funny how a few changes can give totally different results. I'm playing with Pikefix and shieldfix, among other things I've changed. And in my version, which should give similar results as Carl's collection of fixes, Pikes are über.
That's right, they destroy everything. That is, if guard mode is switched off.
Same goes for Halberd militia and in fact all units that can form spear walls and have very long pikes. If they're attacked from the front they'll hold for an almost infinite time. And not only do they hold, they kill.
The other day I was fighting near Jerusalem, attacked by the Egyptians. My army was depleted from too many battles and I had about 10-12 units. The Egyptians had a full stack of mixed troops, among them several Ghazis and lots of mounted troops. The terrain favoured me and I took position on a narrow slope with steep cliffs on either side. I had two units of fresh inexperienced Halberd Militia in the center of my line with two Armoured spears on each flank. Archers and General behind. The Egyptian charge was quite powerful, attacking along the line with all he had. And yet it was stopped dead in its tracks due to my Halberd Militias who didn't move an inch.
After a short melee the Egyptians reformed and charged again onto the line. It was futile.
And then I saw the Ai retreat in an orderly fashion for the first time in M2. They didn't rout, they retreated. I couldn't believe it but it seemed as if the AI had understood that it doesn't have a chance and that a retreat would be the best option. I'd love it if the Ai would make sensible strategic retreats like this more often.
BTW, My Halberd Militias killed about 180 foes each, losing perhaps 20 out of 150 themselves.

[Husar]

Well, Halberds are pretty good in vanilla already.
I'd like to see Pikemen being able to attack and poke more often, pikemen vs pikemen battles also shouldn't be decided with swords and they might want to lower thewir pikes while moving closer to an enemy unit, currently they keep their pikes in the air and move right into a unit, even RTW phalanxes could do better(thought in general, the M2TW animations are superior to those of RTW).
Well, since CA could fix such things in RTW, I am still hoping for a fix.

[Lorenzo_H]

Pikemen are a defensive unit. Swordsmen are an attacking unit. So far I haven't thought of it any other way.

[HoreTore]

And then I saw the Ai retreat in an orderly fashion for the first time in M2. They didn't rout, they retreated. I couldn't believe it but it seemed as if the AI had understood that it doesn't have a chance and that a retreat would be the best option. I'd love it if the Ai would make sensible strategic retreats like this more often.

I see this all the time when I'm playing with horse archer heavy armies. If the forces are about matched in power or the enemy is weaker, they'll usually retreat after they've lost about half their army to arrows and isolated light cav charges.

[Carl]

I'd love to see the statistics you used and the average you arrived at. Feel free to post.

I haven't got any written down, it's all based on observations from lots of use, although i could try and do some tests later.

Pikemen are a defensive unit. Swordsmen are an attacking unit. So far I haven't thought of it any other way.

This still remains true, but they are defensive because they move slowly and you have to concentrate on keeping your flanks/rear secured. It shouldn't be because they can't be ordered to move at all, that just lets the enemy shoot them to bits.

Funny how a few changes can give totally different results. I'm playing with Pike-fix and shield fix, among other things I've changed. And in my version, which should give similar results as Carl's collection of fixes, Pikes are über.
That's right, they destroy everything. That is, if guard mode is switched off.
Same goes for Halberd militia and in fact all units that can form spear walls and have very long pikes. If they're attacked from the front they'll hold for an almost infinite time. And not only do they hold, they kill.
The other day I was fighting near Jerusalem, attacked by the Egyptians. My army was depleted from too many battles and I had about 10-12 units. The Egyptians had a full stack of mixed troops, among them several Ghazis and lots of mounted troops. The terrain favoured me and I took position on a narrow slope with steep cliffs on either side. I had two units of fresh inexperienced Halberd Militia in the center of my line with two Armoured spears on each flank. Archers and General behind. The Egyptian charge was quite powerful, attacking along the line with all he had. And yet it was stopped dead in its tracks due to my Halberd Militias who didn't move an inch.
After a short melee the Egyptians reformed and charged again onto the line. It was futile.
And then I saw the Ai retreat in an orderly fashion for the first time in M2. They didn't rout, they retreated. I couldn't believe it but it seemed as if the AI had understood that it doesn't have a chance and that a retreat would be the best option. I'd love it if the Ai would make sensible strategic retreats like this more often.
BTW, My Halberd Militias killed about 180 foes each, losing perhaps 20 out of 150 themselves.

This is one of the reasons I reduced the attack of all Pikes by 2 points in V1.13. With working Pikes their attack animations are a bit too quick and they kill their opponents a bit too quickly.

You'll get little sympathy for this reasonable conclusion around here.

The problem is it isn't a reasonable conclusion at all. Pikes have the following disadvantages compared to Swordsmen in vanilla.

1. They are extremely slow moving, and because of how long it takes to go from out of spear wall whilst running to into spear wall and prepared to meet a Cav charge, it isn't really feasible to run with them out of spear-wall when they are fairly close to the enemy. My cut off point tends to be at about the same distance Longbows can begin firing on them. Because of this it's very easy for any other non-pike/halberd unit to try to run around the side/rear of the pikes and the slow movement means they will struggle to turn to meet this threat.

2. They are very vulnerable to missiles, they have a worse missile defense than almost every non-spear wall unit in the game. When coupled with their slow speed it's possible for even peasant archers to Wipe out half a unit of Pike Militia before melee starts.

3. They are extremely vulnerable to flank and rear attacks as they never get to use their pikes when attacked there. When coupled with their slow speed, this makes this weakness another major liability, just like their missile vulnerabilities.

4. In line with point 3, pike/halberds need considerable support to work as they need units to guard their flanks and attack the enemies missile units. none of these units are actually intended to beat the enemy army however, their purpose is simply to cover for the pikes vulnerabilities so they can get their job done. For this you needs Swords and, (if available), 2-handers on each flank, plus some spears and light/medium Cav to prevent the enemy going through or around flank guards with their Cav. They also need some light Cav to attack enemy missile units, and a reserve force of spears, swords, and, (if available), 2-handers behind the pikes to plug the hole that will appear if you have to wheel your center around to attack the enemy attacking the flanks. It can also plug holes elsewhere as needed and attack anything that does get round the rear of your army.

5. This brings us onto point 5. Typically the supporting army for a pike center will be outnumbered by the enemy units attacking it, (as a smart opponent will throw everything he can at those flanks in the hopes of collapsing them), and may even be of inferior quality to their opponents. They thus have Little chance of making their value back over the course of a battle. As a result the majority of the total value of the army actually has to be made back by the pikes alone, thats probably why they are so cheap, (although i still feel they are maybe a bit too cheap). Therefore only JUST beating a unit of swords isn't really anywhere near good enough. In reality they will probably have to see off 2 units of swords each in spite of having taken some missile fire, (they'll take some no matter how good the supporting army is), and still be in pretty good shape afterwords. On of the things with Pike you see is that the plan for them is pretty much fixed and theirs Little variance that can be added into it, how well the army does, and how big the win/loss is comes down to very small details in it, (such as when you commit what forces and exactly how well you manage to eliminate the enemy missiles, and how well you stop units running around your rear, e.t.c). With any normal army the plan can change and evolve mid battle and you can easily turn a battle around with some sudden repositioning and attacks.


Not so with a pike army. Win or lose you do so on how well you protect the pikes vulnerabilities, and by how quick you are at getting your pikes into the main enemy army, (weather you do this by forcing the enemy off your flanks into your center, or pinning them against your flanks and turning your center on them). Do these well and you'll come away with a crushing Victory. Do them poorly and it will be a Crushing defeat. Do some bits well and some bits badly and it will be a close victory/defeat.

Overall This is very much how it was in RTW with Phalanx units. the issue here is that they changed the spear-wall code between RTW and M2TW and that creates all the problems, (pikes that can't move and attack at the same time, pikes that switch to swords, and pikes that only fight in 2 ranks instead of 4). If they went back to the RTW code we might actually have working Pikes. As it stands, even in vanilla they are extremely weak as any decent unit can match them in melee and all are faster and typically have better missile defense as well as not requiring a fraction the support. Head on Pikes should be nearly unbeatable.

The issue ATM with the current temp workaround pike fix is that A) it cuts down on the flank/rear vulnerabilities a bit too much, and B) the speed at which they kill is too high, you can't use cheap units to tie them up for a while as you should be able to. You can't disrupt his attack timing with his pikes if his pikes can't be delayed.

[Lusted]

If they went back to the RTW code we might actually have working Pikes

I really hope CA don't, pikes in RTW were way too overpowered, even on the move if they were in phalanx formation they would massacre cav that charge into them - even with thier spears up! Or even if you charged them in the rear your cav would somehow take casualties because they were in phalanx formation.

I like the changes CA have made to pikes in M2Tw, all they need is to use thier pikes for longer in combat, and a slight boost to movement speed.

[Carl]

they would massacre Cav that charge into them - even with their spears up! Or even if you charged them in the rear your Cav would somehow take casualties because they were in phalanx formation.

I wasn't aware of these facts actually. I was talking My experience of them which was if they where fighting infantry (or Cav if stopped and braced), they would massacre anything that attacked them from the front. Which is as it should be. Thats the entire point and balancing crux of Pike units. They pay in missile vulnerabilities speed and flank/rear vulnerabilities for being virtually unstoppable head on.

I agree the 2 things you described shouldn't happen BTW.

[Lusted]

They pay in missile vulnerabilities speed and flank/rear vulnerabilities for being virtually unstoppable head on.

Ah, MOSTLY unstoppable head on, infantry with shields and swords could give pikemen a nice shock, as shown in history by the use of sword and buckler men. Cav should just stand no chance aginast pikes head on.

[FactionHeir]

Well and that units charging them from the front should not continue running on the spot against a pike but actually die from impaling themselves on the pike... especially cavalry - its simply ridiculous how they can keep charging on the spot without taking any casualties when pikes are in guard mode. Running into a pike without the pikeman stabbing is supposed to be lethal too.

Right now, you could think those pikes were just wooden staves that were not sharpened at all but had a blunt end...

[Carl]

Ah, MOSTLY unstoppable head on, infantry with shields and swords could give pikemen a nice shock, as shown in history by the use of sword and buckler men. Cav should just stand no chance aginast pikes head on.

I was talking in the game where having ANYTHING beat them head on would be IMBA.

Not that I think swords and sheilds really where a big threat to well trained Pikes, (see the other thread here I dealt with that point).

[econ21]

I really hope CA don't, pikes in RTW were way too overpowered, even on the move if they were in phalanx formation they would massacre cav that charge into them - even with thier spears up! Or even if you charged them in the rear your cav would somehow take casualties because they were in phalanx formation.

I don't recognise that. In my experience, RTW phalanxes did pretty badly against cav. I remember needing 3 Seleucid bronze shields to bring down one AI cataphract general - and losing about half my men. The problem of pikes switching to swords, and the general uberness of RTW cav (esp. the 2HP kind), meant my RTW phalanxes took excessive casualties holding off cav. Playing Alexander, I experienced the same thing - the phalanx suffered against barbarian generals' units.

RTW phalanxes were arguably overpowered against infantry. In the hands of the player, your solid wall of pike units could just mow down the AI with minimal loss. But in the AIs hands, pikes were awful. The AI just could not handle them - they were too slow and would meander around seeking best match ups, breaking the solid wall of units and exposing their flanks. Fighting them was just too easy.

I haven't experienced pikes much in M2TW, so I can't comment on them at the moment. For the SP game, my instinct would be to err on the side of the overpowering the phalanx - the human is going to murder the AI phalanxes through fire and flanking, so keeping them beefy is necessary to stop them being an embarassment. (The human will just have to show restraint when handling beefy phalanxes).

[Nelson]

My Rome experiences match Econ's. Pike were underpowered in Rome IMO. I saw cav penetrate their ranks far too often to ever call them OVER powered. Historically phalanxes could be defeated for sure but not easily. Despite the cost, Pyrrhus did give his name to victories, after all. We don’t call them Pyrrhic defeats. The Romans had a kind of tactical stalemate going on with the Greeks until they bumbled into a favorable situation at Cynoscephalae.

I see people saying that pikes were purely defensive, or should be. Not so! They could make devastating attacks. Just look at the Swiss who became famous for mass attacks in deep columns. They didn’t show up on the battlefield and just stand around waiting to be charged. They took it to the enemy.

I’m not sure what CA should do about these pike and shield issues, but if the outcome is to bear any relation to history, well trained pike formations should be hard hitting, dangerous and tough if you can’t get around on them.

[Lusted]

RTW phalanxes were arguably overpowered against infantry.

True, i suppose it was mostly against inf they were overpowered.

What i'd ideally like to see is a pike fomration that is almost impenetrable from the front, can be used to attack, and does the push of pike against othe rpike fomrations, doesn't switch to swords too soon, but is very vulnerable from the flanks/rear, and against missiles. And a bit difficult to manouver.

[FactionHeir]

RTW phalanxes were great IMO. Fairly well balanced except against chariots which insta died when touching the pikes and with cav charging into their rear taking heavy losses.

Remedy the rear charging issue and they are ready for implementation into M2TW I would think, because there are no chariots here.

[Carl]

What i'd ideally like to see is a pike fomration that is almost impenetrable from the front, can be used to attack, and does the push of pike against othe rpike fomrations, doesn't switch to swords too soon, but is very vulnerable from the flanks/rear, and against missiles. And a bit difficult to manouver

That pretty much matches my veiw too Lusted.

[Carl]

Just had some thoughts regarding the mechanics and how I think things could be fixed:

First I think I know why Pike Switch to swords so easily. It's the fixing of the RTW rear charge Cav Bug. The old reflect charge trick of pikes doesn't use any animations so theirs no override to stop it happening if the pike isn't actually facing the opponent. Coming into contact with the Pikemen must always trigger the reflection and the Pike extends this area of affect with regards to reflect charge and the pikemans own attack, (but not the enemies attacks back), rather a long way to the front. From the rear you actually have to end up ramming into the pikemen himself to have it happen but it still happens up till the point he draws his sword. however the issue here is pretty simple. In RTW you actually had to be taking a swing at him or about to take a swing at him before he'd drop his pike and pull his sword. As a result, the reflect charge would happen BEFORE he dropped his Pike, resulting in dead Cav.

Now assuming the above IS correct I think what they've done is change it so that he pulls his sword when the enemy gets withing a particular distance of him. As a result he drops his pike sooner, and a rear Cav charge will cause him to drop his pike BEFORE he gets hit by the Cav. Unfortunately since some men always make it past the pike points he drops it too soon against infantry.

Second, One of the big issues is the way the switchover code has everyone switch to swords as soon as one does, generally those that do make it in would be driven off if only those guys getting hacked at switched to swords.

Third the Pike spacing between men is FAR too high. The spacing used by the, (currently unimplemented), Shield_Wall formation would be much better as it increases the number of Pike points attacking each man, this is part of what makes Phalanx units so irresistible from the front in RTW, they get a lot of pike points directed at each enemy helping to prevent him reaching the formation proper.

Fourth, in RTW they fought in far more Ranks than currently, 2-3 ranks just isn't enough for effective Pikes. You need a lot more. As it stands, 4 can just about fight if you take guard mode off, (the 3rd and 4th llower thier pikes and attack after the enemy impact, but without a pike fix they switch to swords before this happens). With closer spacing 4 could comfortably fight.

Fifth, another possible temp fix might be to double the attack of all pikes so as to reduce the likelihood of any single attack failing to kill. That would make it much harder to penetrate the pike wall as the ones that do tend to be the ones that don't get killed by the pikes when they try to get in. If you can't give them more Pike points, make what they do have more effective to compensate. This would actually encourage the AI to recruit them too.

[Lusted]

One of the big issues is the way the switchover code has everyone switch to swords as soon as one does, generally those that do make it in would be driven off if only those guys getting hacked at switched to swords.

Really? I've only seen those in melee switch to swords.

[Carl]

For me and most people as soon as more than 1 or 2 switch to swords the entire lot drops pikes and the enemy runs in quick. you have to whatch the unit side on from maximum zoom so you can see how close the enemy is when the first pikemen switches, you'll notice that when the rest switch the enemy are much furthar away.

[NefariousWolf]

Great post on the 5 disadvantages of Pikes, Carl. Your post read almost like a manual on how pikes should behave and how to use them to effect. Which is why I'm curious as to why you disagree that they are balanced.

As you and Lusted agreed, and I whole-heartedly support, a good definition of balanced Pike is:

... a pike fomration that is almost impenetrable from the front, can be used to attack, and does the push of pike against other pike formations, doesn't switch to swords too soon, but is very vulnerable from the flanks/rear, and against missiles. And a bit difficult to manouver.

Your points of disadvantages is just an elaboration of this.
1. They have poor maneuverability.
2. They are extremely vulnerable to missiles.
3. They are extremely vulnerable to flank and rear attacks.

Points 4 and 5 then go on as to how to counter and/or cover these disadvantages. A couple thoughts about these....

Therefore only JUST beating a unit of swords isn't really anywhere near good enough. In reality they will probably have to see off 2 units of swords each in spite of having taken some missile fire, (they'll take some no matter how good the supporting army is), and still be in pretty good shape afterwords.

If you look at the statistics again, you'll see that they don't 'just' beat the Armored Swordsmen, they completely destroy the Armored Swordsmen and are many times left with a half-unit, a still functioning unit you can use in a reserve role.

It might be hard to tell from the statistics, and I really should have noted it for people who aren't as familiar wtih the units, but Heavy Militia Pikemen start with 75 soldiers as opposed to the Armored Swordsmen's 60. So, while 50 casualties on both sides looks like a draw, it still leaves the Pikemen with 15 more soldiers.

Also note that the Armored Swordsmen have much better stats and are much more expensive. They aren't just any swordsmen, they're the best the English have to offer (although not the best in the game, of course), whereas the Heavy Militia Pike are only the second best Pike units the Scotts have.

Overall This is very much how it was in RTW with Phalanx units. the issue here is that they changed the spear-wall code between RTW and M2TW and that creates all the problems, (pikes that can't move and attack at the same time, pikes that switch to swords, and pikes that only fight in 2 ranks instead of 4).

Pikes can move an attack, that's the Spear Wall - Advance column in the stats. They performed only slightly less well in an advancing attack than in a braced defense.

As it stands, even in vanilla they are extremely weak as any decent unit can match them in melee... Head on Pikes should be nearly unbeatable.

Again, that's not what my tests showed. They clobbered the swordsmen time after time and were, at least in the Spear Wall - attack, unbeatable. At least for the 10 tests. If I was really doing this right, I'd do 100. But then I'd never play the game....

The issue ATM with the current temp workaround pike fix is that A) it cuts down on the flank/rear vulnerabilities a bit too much, and B) the speed at which they kill is too high, you can't use cheap units to tie them up for a while as you should be able to. You can't disrupt his attack timing with his pikes if his pikes can't be delayed.

I absolutely agree. I think the pike workaround ruins the balance and ruins pikemen. However, if you just want to see people get mowed down by a bunch of pointy sticks and aren't really looking for a 'balance', I'm sure it's a lot of fun.

For me and most people as soon as more than 1 or 2 switch to swords the entire lot drops pikes and the enemy runs in quick

This is not what I observed. Throughout the many battles that I watched closely, every single time there were at least a handful of pikemen sticking to their pikes. If there weren't, then we would expect outcomes closer to the Infantry Charge stats.

However, I agree that Pikemen switch to fast. I'm almost certain that it's a distance function, however it seems to be omnidirectional when it should only apply to enemies in front of the pikeman.

Though I think this needs to be fixed, it needs to be fixed in conjunction with the shield bug fix. Fixing this but not the shield bug will make the Pikemen far too powerful as they are already balanced in relation to shieldless swordsmen.

[pike master]

i was under a manager one time when i worked as a meatcutter. and it had been a while since i had a raise so i ask him can i get a raise. he says ill put a word in for you to the supervisor.

well a few weeks go by and i dont hear anything so i ask him about the raise again. he tells me that the supervisor was thinking about or that he forgot to tell him.

this went on for about a month till i got the supervisor aside and confronted him myself and found out the guy never even told him i wanted a raise.

guess what i got my raise.

can yu guys take a hint.we got some wabbits to flush!

[hellenes]

My Rome experiences match Econ's. Pike were underpowered in Rome IMO. I saw cav penetrate their ranks far too often to ever call them OVER powered. Historically phalanxes could be defeated for sure but not easily. Despite the cost, Pyrrhus did give his name to victories, after all. We don’t call them Pyrrhic defeats. The Romans had a kind of tactical stalemate going on with the Greeks until they bumbled into a favorable situation at Cynoscephalae.

I see people saying that pikes were purely defensive, or should be. Not so! They could make devastating attacks. Just look at the Swiss who became famous for mass attacks in deep columns. They didn’t show up on the battlefield and just stand around waiting to be charged. They took it to the enemy.

I’m not sure what CA should do about these pike and shield issues, but if the outcome is to bear any relation to history, well trained pike formations should be hard hitting, dangerous and tough if you can’t get around on them.

Thats exactly the point...
The probel I see is that CA hasnt connected the experience level to the speed of how a pike unit forms or turns around...because more experienced and veteran pikemen could make some VERY complex manouvers like Alexanders Pezetairoi proved countless times...

[pike master]

in rome my legionares could own most phalanxes in a frontal engagement. its only when you went up against the elite units like the armored hoplites and spartans and silver shield pikemen that i would lose.

i think it was well balanced in rome.

[Whacker]

I also felt that pikes were distinctly underpowered in RTW. Cav tended to rip up anything (which I was perfectly ok with), but even the more basic infantry would give pikes a run for the money from the front. The 1.5 patch helped a little bit the "butt-spike" bug was/is exceedingly annoying. This is of course a bit different from the M2TW pikes. The (hopefully soon fixed) sword bug made them just about as useless... Of course, once you remove their swords, and stick them with pikes only, then holy crap! I didn't have them lose once to anything, not even full gold chevron DFKs.

As for legionaries, I think half of them owning just about anything was the double pilum toss before engaging. That almost always wiped out 1/4 if not more of whatever they were engaging.