Duchy of Bavaria

[TinCow]

Matthias is right, we have been patient with Milan for too long. It was certainly worthwhile to seek peace with them after the long war and I too would have been content to keep relations between us civil. The Milanese islands are not so wealthy that Bavaria needs to annex them for its own reasons, it is simply a matter of stopping these incessant raids on our lands. We cannot fortify every section of coastline at once and they were bound to do damage to us over and over before we can assemble our armies and drive them back into the sea. Nor should we bother to seek another peace with them. They have twice declared unprovoked war on us and they will surely do so a third time if we give them the opportunity. Another peace will simply give them more time to rebuild their armies.

In truth, the matter lays with the Chancellor at the moment, as it is up to his discretion as to whether to follow new orders for the Household Army. Hopefully he will see the justice in our cause and support us. If not, it is a simple matter of giving the appropriate orders for the Household Army at the beginning of the next term, which is close enough at hand to wait for without much concern. We are morally and legally in the right.

[McIwoo]

Brothers I did not mean to say that we shoudln't take care of the Milanese problem once and for all, but rather that we should make more diligent use of our economical and political might instead of the army. This when both dealing with the Holy See and the Milanese.

[Stuperman]

Gerhard Steffen:

Lothar, I am proud of you son, you stood up for a very unpopular position today against some of the most influential men in the Riech. I am inclined to agree with your point that putting the wants of the Pope before the needs of the citizens of the Riech is absurd.

Your diplomatic skills could however use some practice, accusing the Chancellor and Kaiser of treason on the Diet floor is certianly NOT something that you should do if you want to have any sort of political career.

Now I know that Matthais has requested to go east (OOC: is that for story reasons? or just to have another Bavarian out there?) but late last night I recieved a messeneger from Conrad Salier, specifically requesting your presence Lothar. I am tempted to grant him your presence, how would you feel about that?

[TinCow]

*Lothar looks startled.*

My presence? Given Conrad's friendship with the Kaiser, who is also present in Outremer, I cannot imagine I will receive a warm welcome in those lands. Of all the places in the Reich, that is the one place I am wary of going at the moment. I think my reasons are understandable. I must know Conrad's specific reasons for this before I make any response, especially given that Matthias has already volunteered for the duty. If there is a legitimate reason for wanting me over Matthias, I will consider it, but I will not seek it out myself.

If you speak to Conrad before I do, please let him know that he can discuss this with me via private communications if he is uncomfortable with a public discussion.

[gibsonsg91921]

Regardless of the antics in the Diet, I believe we still have the law on our side. The Pope's order does not mention excommunication, so we are not barred from attacking Milan by Charter Amendment 6.7.

OOC: For the record, I saw that after my most recent Diet speech about the laws

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

I do this for you, Lothar. If you truly wish to be a powerful figure in the Reich's politics you are going to have to be taken seriously. Right now I can tell you that you are regarded as little more than a spoiled child.

A stay in Outremer could correct that, as you would be seen as finally growing up by going to the place that you least want to go. Bavaria needs another presence in Outremer and Adana would be yours should you choose to go there. In addition, future leaders of the Reich should acquaint themselves with all of its parts. While not located in Germany, Poland, or Italy, Outremer is still a part of the Holy Roman Empire, with all the benefits of any other part.

Upon your return to the Diet, you will be regarded as a mature adult and your opinions will be listened to. I guarantee that.

[TinCow]

Outremer may be ruled by the Holy Roman Empire, but it is most certainly not part of it. Few of the people who live there are Romans, indeed most are Muhammadans who have recently converted to Christianity at sword point. To say that Outremer is equal to Swabia or Austria is simply not true.

The one area where Outremer has value is to Christendom itself. Certainly it was a worthy conquest and it should be maintained and defended vigorously. However, there are many proper Catholics in the world who journey there to defend the place. It is not lacking in support. My entire concern is that our homelands themselves are being drained and abandoned in deference to this new 'Kingdom.' You say that it is part of the Reich, while I see it being promoted as superior to the Reich. Why is it that your title is "King" of Outremer, Conrad, rather than Duke or some lesser rank? Were Duke Gerhard to journey East, he would be forced to kneel to you. How is that right? How is that just?

No, I cannot leave our homelands behind when it is the homelands themselves that are so desperately in need of support. You say going East would be to my own benefit. That is yet another reason to refuse. With all the work there is to be done right here, I would be abandoning those who need me only to further my own power. It is yet another offer of 30 pieces of silver in a different guise.

If defending the lives and values of my own vassals makes others regard me as a spoiled child, then I shall wear that moniker with pride.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

First of all, I dispute the claim that most of Outremer's inhabitants converted to Christianity at sword-point. As anyone can tell you, Damascus was primarily Christian when it was taken by the Crusaders.

Since Outremer and its charter were Kaiser Henry's brainchild, evidently he believes that Outremer is a special entity, different than the other Houses that currently occupy the European Reich. If you have any concerns with its treatment, I suggest you take it up with the Kaiser. I simply make due with what I am given.

As far as your own personal glory issues, I am glad to see that you are somewhat above the level where you scream at Hungarian soldiers to fight harder. However, the fact remains: Bavaria needs another presence in Outremer. Out of the four Bavarians currently in Europe you are the one farthest from the Milanese and your people that you are so concerned with. It also happens that you are the closest one to Outremer. I am certain that your father and brothers have enough mettle in them to deal with any Milanese threat that arises. Do you disagree?

[TinCow]

First, Conrad, I would like to say that I did not mean to infer that your title of King of Outremer was unjustly rewarded or that you are abusing it. It is well-known that you did not create the position and did not seek to possess it. Indeed, it is to the glory and honor of Bavaria that the title of King of Outremer has so far only been held by Bavarians. All of us are proud of your accomplishments there and you have earned great respect in this house. I suspect you may feel a bit uncomfortable being surrounded by a House full of Steffens, (Hells, I know I would be if I were not one.) but I assure you that you are as much a part of our family as I am. I do not and have never sought to insult or demean you in any way. My comments about Outremer were merely about the strange governmental system that has been created, which has nothing to do with you or your actions. So, if you have taken anything I said as a personal offense, I apologize and humbly request your forgiveness.

As for me going East... Of course my father and brothers are more than capable of handling the Milanese affair. I have never once said that my presence was even remotely necessary to resolve the issue. I also agree that another Bavarian in Outremer would be a good thing and we have enough capable leaders to spare. However, it does not seem wise to me to send a man who does not desire to be there in the first place. I am as much a God-fearing man as the next person (apologies, father) and perhaps I will tour Outremer at some point in my life, but I simply do not feel that it is where I should be at the moment. This is especially true when my younger brother Matthias has openly expressed his desire to go. He is a very capable man and will serve Bavaria as well, if not better, than I could.

My physical proximity to Outremer seems a silly point on which to base this decision. Surely whichever man goes will take a sea route rather than a land route. As such, being located in Italy or Austria will make little difference the speed of departure. Let us get Matthias knighted posthaste and then send him on his way. All will be well, Bavarian interests will be protected, and Outremer will receive one of the finest men in the Reich.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

Very well. But the point remains that another Bavarian is needed in the East, and I would prefer that the position be filled sooner rather than later. Therefore, in the interests of the Kingdom of Outremer I shall revise my position on the Milanese issue in order to send Matthias East more speedily.

Congratulations Lothar, you have just participated in a civil discussion where no voices were raised or insults made. Look at the result: You get what you wanted and an elder (me) respects you more as a result of your tone. Use this tact more often and you shall be put in higher regard by the Diet in general.

[TinCow]

HAH!

That's a call for a round of beers, if I've ever heard one!

*Lothar raises his stein and grins.*

[OverKnight]

Matthias takes a sensible sip of beer and smirks a bit.

While I may be Uncle Conrad's second choice, I will still gladly head to Outremer. I'm so glad you all could so collegially decide my fate amongst yourselves.

As I said before, if the Milan situation cannot be decided quickly, I should head east. From what I've heard, there will be many opportunities to gain my knighthood.

This does not mean, however, that I think we should be lenient with those merchants, if not now, we should rid ourselves of them as soon as possible. If it comes to the next Diet, we should craft a tightly worded edict that will not allow delay as shown by Kaiser Henry when he was Chancellor. He has been an effective and visionary Kaiser, but in that respect he failed Bavaria.

Matthias glances down at piece of parchemnt in his hand.

For insurance, I would respectfully suggest to you, Father, that you issue BHA orders before the reign of the next Chancellor begins that ensure our goals. This way, the Chancellor will have no choice to follow them unless they violate the Charter.

[TinCow]

*Lothar is still drinking his ale when he hears news that part of the Bavarian Household Army has been bribed by the Russians. The surprise of the news causes him to sputter and spurt beer all over the table.*

RUSSIANS?! What good Bavarian would ever care for Russian coin? We must NOT let this pass without response. Each and every one of our deserters must be hunted down and publicly executed. The Franconians have been complaining about their lack of ability to strike at the Russians for some time now. Perhaps we should support them in the upcoming Diet and propose a punitive expedition against the Rus. Not to conquer, but simply to sack and move on. That should be sufficient retribution to make them think twice about their hostilities towards the Reich.

[Stuperman]

This is most disturbing news, and I fear it may delay any action against the Milanese. Given the obvious Heathen tendancies on Corsica, I'm inclined to bring a couple of priests along with the army to more quickly subdue the populus.

King Salier's plan for drawing out the Milanese is a very interesting one, especially if we use it on Corsica, we can then use the settlement on negotiation with the Sicilians, see if we can improve relations, and maybe get Military access. It would also help to get the Diet off our backs.

[McIwoo]

*His jaws drop when he hears the news*

mmmh this is a very bad and most disturbing news indeed. True, well paid, equipped and trained Bavarian soldiers...traitors? How is that possible?

*Bangs his head against the table*

I agree with Lothar, a swift and strong answer to both these filthy traitors and backstabbing Russians must be delivered! In the same it wouldn't hurt to capture their leader and officers alive to question them, there may be more traitors among our soldiers. I suggest we pay more attention to this issue in the future.

[Stuperman]

OOC: the troops that got bribed have disappeared? turned russian? turned Brigand?

[TinCow]

OOC: I'm pretty sure they disbanded. They were bribed by the Russians, which means that any units the Russians cannot build disband. I don't think there was anything in that stack that was buildable by Russia, so they simply cease to exist.

[TinCow]

What's this?! The Milanese attempt to land an army on our shores, the Chancellor ignores the Pope, supports the House of Bavaria, and sinks the fleet, in direct violation of the Papal Bull?! This is a clear display that we have been entirely right in our stance on Milan, despite the opposition in the Diet. With the Papal Bull now defunct, no further harm can come from an assault on Milan.

Father, brothers, it is time to ready the Bavarian Household Army for war! Let us set sail immediately!

[TinCow]

*Lothar hears reports of the discussions in the Diet.*

Matthias, I wish you well on your journey East, but do not forget where you come from. Outremer is not the heart of the Empire and priority must be given to the homelands. I hope you do not become one of those religious fanatics who spends all his spare time searching for Christ's chamberpot, or whatever Divine Baubles are left buried in the sands.

[TinCow]

*Lothar reads over the transcripts of recent Diet speeched. He pauses when he reaches Hans proclamation for re-election.*

What is this? Hans "proves" his support for us by raising "a large force in the Italian cities" with which we can attack the Milansese. Large force?

*Lothar cranes his neck around the room. Looking left and right, then he shrugs.*

Where, pray tell, is this force? In all of Italy there is only one military unit that is not from the local militia! There is not a single army in all of Bavaria that meets the standards required for a Household Army! Clearly Hans intends to insult Bavaria by using a fast levy of militia to obscure the fact that he has been responsible for the total dissolution of our army! Is he so ignorant to think that we will be happy to lead militia spearmen and merchant cavalry as a replacement for professional Bavarian soldiers?!

Hans also claims to have fulfilled all the Imperial Edicts he was bound by law to fulfill. Perhaps I should lend him my tutor for a time, for it seems our dear ex-Chancellor is also illiterate! He has totally failed to meet Edict 9.3, yet he still proclaims his success. He had only three Edicts to fulfill in his entire term, and he did not even manage that.

It seems to me that there is only one reason to return Hans to the position of Chancellorship: so that we may then immediately move to impeach him for his crimes against Bavaria and the Reich!

If one of you would be willing to convey these FACTS to the Diet, I would be most grateful.

[OverKnight]

OOC Edit: This was posted at the same time as TC's post above, consider the first part of this a response to 169.

Matthias glances at Lothar as a flash of irritation comes across his face:

I find your lack of faith, disturbing, Lothar. A Bavarian is needed to assist King Salier and continue our supervision of Adana. I will be proud to follow in the footsteps of Maximillian Mandorf and Otto von Kassel in defending the Holy Land. You can stay here and cool your heels outside the Diet.

Matthias regains his focus.

Speaking of King Otto, I believe a variation of this edict concerning Milan might be tried again:

Edict 8.1: The Milanese will be offered peace and trade rights with at most 5,000 florins as an incentive. If they refuse, they are to be destroyed expeditiously by taking Corsica and Sardinia, unless we are delayed from doing so by a Papal Bull. Once both islands are in our possession, Sardinia will be offered to the Sicilians in exchange for florins and/or their good will.

Obviously, peace has been tried and it failed, so it should not be an option this time. I also suggest we impose a time limit and a measure to bring the witch Danae to justice. Despite King Salier's assertion, the Inquisitor is no match for her, and she must be dealt with by us. Here's what I would propose:

Edict 10.X: The continued Milanese threat to Imperial trade and lands will be ended by taking Corsica and Sardinia. The witch Danae will be eliminated before any siege of the Castle on Corsica. Once both islands are in our possession, Sardinia will be offered to the Sicilians in exchange for florins and/or their good will. All this must be accomplished in 10 years (5 turns).

The time frame given is tight, but I hope that will encourage the next Chancellor to accomplish this quickly. As we all know delays last time lost us our goals and hurt members of our House.

Matthias pales and begins to cough, with great effort he begins to talk again.

This must not be allowed to happen again. We this edict, we can remove the Milanese threat while strengthening our alliance with Sicily.

IC Edit: You raise some good points, Lothar. The Chancellor has been effective, but not at all honest. I will speak in the Diet regarding this, unless you plan to apologize to the Kaiser? That ban has lasted a bit longer than you thought, no?

[Stuperman]

I very much like the wording of that edict Mathias, it shows restraint and properly recognizes the threats to the expedition. I would suggest that something about attaching a couple priests to each expedition, In my past time on Corsica they proved useful to keep the men focused, and convert the local populars after we take over.

Lothar, I'd like to speak to you privately.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

I shall be happy to second Edict 10.x, although I think that the Papal Inquisitor currently on Corsica has taken care of Danae.

[OverKnight]

Matthias:

King Salier, I am afraid the the Inquisitor is not up to the task, the poor fellow (one piety, last I knew) is outclassed by Danae (~7). His feeble attempts to denounce her have probably only served to strengthen her powers.

Matthias coughs into a silk cloth.

Father, an insightful comment about sending priests. I am sure Corsica is a godless land full of Apostacy and Paganism due to that foul servant of the Devil. How does this sound?

Edict 10.X: The continued Milanese threat to Imperial trade and lands will be ended by taking Corsica and Sardinia. The witch Danae will be eliminated before any siege of the Castle on Corsica. The most devout Priests available, at least two, will accompany the army to bring the light of God to that accursed Isle. Once both islands are in our possession, Sardinia will be offered to the Sicilians in exchange for florins and/or their good will. All this must be accomplished in 10 years (5 turns).

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

Perhaps we should destroy her ourselves with the army. I believe that Maximillian Mandorf used this tactic with the assassin that claimed Sigismund der Stolze's life.

[OverKnight]

That was my intent, the troops would scour the countryside before laying siege. The priests would be there to enforce orthodoxy once we have taken the Island.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

My apologies, I've been feeling a bit under the weather lately...

[OverKnight]

Matthias:

A thought, technically, King Salier is no longe part of our House, at least for his term as King. Do you approve of the revision, Father? If so, I will need a second from Markus or Lothar as well.

[TinCow]

Of course I will support your edict, Matthias. Just because I think your interest in the East is foolish does not mean I will ignore sense when you choose to speak it. I am glad to see that when it comes to legislation, you have our Homelands at the forefront of your thoughts.

[Stuperman]

I will gladly second the edict myself as well.