College of Surgeons

**tomrayner** · 08-04-2009, 08:44

Does anybody know what this building does? - in the game it says it improves the health of your population but I can't quite see how.

It's funny that I always build one... same with the Military Academy - is this supposed to make all units disciplined?

Thanks guys

**caravel** · 08-04-2009, 09:03

The College of Surgeons reduces disease in all of your provinces and lowers the chances of your generals/royalty dying of illness. It also gives a large provincial loyalty/happiness bonus in the province in which it is built.

**I of the Storm** · 08-04-2009, 09:35

And what does "discipline" do? It's neither a +valor nor a +morale so it's got to be something else.

**caravel** · 08-04-2009, 10:11

Discipline is related to the rallying of troops. The Military Academy adds a +1 bonus to troops trained in the province. Some troops already have +1 discipline so with the Military Academy they would get +2.

**drone** · 08-04-2009, 15:49

The College of Surgeons gives +40% happiness to the province. I was not quite sure how it affected health/disease. I'll add that to the wiki.

Originally Posted by Caravel

Discipline is related to the rallying of troops. The Military Academy adds a +1 bonus to troops trained in the province. Some troops already have +1 discipline so with the Military Academy they would get +2.

I was under the impression that the Military Academy affected the morale effects field designated in column 57 of the unit prod file. Impetuous would become Normal and Normal would become Disciplined. How does the rally mechanic work?

**caravel** · 08-04-2009, 16:14

That's the column I was referring to, though now I see what you mean. The info for column 57 states that the enumeration is "DISCIPLINED, NORMAL, UNCONTROLLED" - in that order. I'm not sure how the "UPGRADE_DISCIPLINE(1)" refers to this? 1 must be "disciplined", 0 "normal", and "uncontrolled" must then be -1? I think it does affect rallying of troops, though I can't be 100% certain. I'm sure that discipline in STW had this affect anyway. The troops that are more disciplined and less impetuous are supposedly easier to rally and less likely to charge without orders - so in general I believe it affects how willing the unit is to follow orders. I'm also not sure how values above 1 take effect either.

**drone** · 08-04-2009, 17:29

That's pretty much how I figured the upgrade worked. Elite status is flagged in a different column, so I'm not sure you can go higher than Disciplined with a Military Academy. Uncontrollable/Disciplined/Elite status show up in the unit status on the battlefield, right? That might be the only way to verify the effects.

As far as rallying is concerned, Disciplined units are less affected by normal (not disciplined/elite) units that are fleeing, so it keeps their morale from dropping too low in a chain rout.

**Martok** · 08-04-2009, 18:26

Originally Posted by drone

As far as rallying is concerned, Disciplined units are less affected by normal (not disciplined/elite) units that are fleeing, so it keeps their morale from dropping too low in a chain rout.

This was my understanding as well. Disciplined units are more resistant to morale-reducing effects & events, particularly the routing of nearby friendly units. Of course, if the routing unit(s) in question is *also* disciplined (or elite), then morale would drop as it would any normal unit.

At least, that's how it's supposed to work. Truth be told, I've never really paid enough attention to the performance of "disciplined" troops to know if this function works as designed/advertised.

**caravel** · 08-04-2009, 21:19

There is some confusion here as regards discipline and elite status. A unit that is elite (SAMURAI() unit prod column 26) is placed on a different level to none elite units. It has no effects on morale it simply means that elite units will "ignore routers that aren't elite". That is to say that an elite unit will not be part of a peasant chain rout. In order for the elite unit to chain rout they will have to be effected by other elite units routing.

Disciplined/Normal/Uncontrolled status is not the same. It does not relate to elite status, morale or the likelihood of routing, but unit behaviour and, AFAIK, rallying.

Examples: Column 57 for clansmen, futuwwa, nizari, fanatics, ghazi, gallowglass and many of the Knights types is "uncontrolled". Their unit parchements state "may charge without orders". This represents the rowdy undisciplined mercenary types, the fanatically zealous types and the bold and chivalrous noble types.

Units such as Janissaries, Kataphraktoi, Byzantine Infantry, Varangian Guard and Mongol units are disciplined. To represent standing armies and restrained and well trained Mongol Warriors.

Pretty much every other unit defaults to "normal" (note: I haven't listed every disciplined and uncontrolled unit in the file), which I assume is a balance of the two. Some units are specifically designated as normal in column 57, though as this is the default anyway I'm not sure why this is (it's not the only CA config file to exhibit this kind of inconsistency though).

So I wonder what happens to a disciplined unit that is trained in a province with the Military Academy? This is always the case for Janissary units after all. Is +1 the max or does the unit get +2 and if so does +2 have any effect?

As to the rallying, I can't be sure, but the discipline paramter worked in this way in STW (and it's the same engine - In STW I don't think there was an "uncontrolled" type, only normal and disciplined.).

Uncontrolled units seem to be harder to rally than normal units. Futuwwa, Clansmen, Ghazis and Gallowglasses for example are devils for routing right off the field once they start and it's often impossible to get them back - whereas with less units like e.g. Vanilla archers or Feudal Sergeants it's much easier - of course it also depends on the general's rank. Knights probably make up for this with their stats and morale - which is why rallying is not such an issue for them.

Conversely disciplined units such as all Golden Horde units tend not to stay routed for long and will keep coming back for more. This also points to the bonus to rallying.

**drone** · 08-04-2009, 21:42

Regarding Elite and it's representation in the game files, that's why I don't think a Disciplined unit can be "upgraded" to Elite with a Military Academy. Units can be both Elite and Disciplined (Jannisaries), they can also be Elite and Uncontrolled (Lancers). According to the official strategy guide though, non-Elite and non-Disciplined units count as half units when routing near a Disciplined unit for morale purposes, so there is some relation.

I'm not really sure how the upgrade works wrt Uncontrolled/Normal/Disciplined, I've never really paid too much attention to it. My guess is that Uncontrolled units become Normal, Normal units become Disciplined, and Disciplined units are not changed. Is it possible to see a unit's discipline state from the battlefield GUI or log files?

**caravel** · 08-04-2009, 22:13

Originally Posted by drone

Regarding Elite and it's representation in the game files, that's why I don't think a Disciplined unit can be "upgraded" to Elite with a Military Academy.

Units can be both Elite and Disciplined (Jannisaries), they can also be Elite and Uncontrolled (Lancers).

Correct, disciplined cannot be upgraded to elite as it's a totally different parameter and for the same reason you can get any combinations of elite/non-elite + uncontrolled/normal/disciplined. i.e:

elite:uncontrolled - (i.e. Chivalric Knights)
elite:normal - (i.e. FMAA)
elite:disciplined - (i.e. Kataphraktoi)

non-elite:uncontrolled - (i.e. Gallowglasse)
non-elite:normal - (i.e. UM)
non-elite:disciplined - (i.e. Trebizond Archers)

Originally Posted by drone

According to the official strategy guide though, non-Elite and non-Disciplined units count as half units when routing near a Disciplined unit for morale purposes, so there is some relation.

I'm not sure about this, but it sound entirely plausible to me. Discplined units may take less notice of Normal and Uncontrolled units when they rout. It may also be that Normal units to a degree take less notice of routing Uncontrolled units?

Originally Posted by drone

I'm not really sure how the upgrade works wrt Uncontrolled/Normal/Disciplined, I've never really paid too much attention to it. My guess is that Uncontrolled units become Normal, Normal units become Disciplined, and Disciplined units are not changed.

I was thinking along the same lines. Either way when Janissaries which are already Disciplined are trained in a province with a military Academy and do not seem to get any more "disciplined" because of this.

Originally Posted by drone

Is it possible to see a unit's discipline state from the battlefield GUI or log files?

I'm not sure of that. I think F1 only shows usual stats and morale. The logs, which I haven't looked at for years, only show per man stats such as kills, armour and individual valour AFAIK.

The battle logfiles generate the units that are dumped back in the province on the campaign map.

**Raz** · 08-09-2009, 10:55

Puzz3D had posted a thread on this some time ago in the Samurai Warlords sub-forum.

Negative Morale Effects:
General's death (for first few seconds): -8 to all his units except highly disciplined units
General's death (after first few seconds): -2 to all his units except highly disciplined units
Routing Friends: up to -12 for seeing 2 equal or higher level friendly units routing. #Elite and disciplined units consider lesser types as 1/2 a unit for this calculation.

drone is correct (at least according to the information posted) that disciplined and elite units count other units as 1/2 for calculations about routing units. Also, although discipline doesn't directly affect morale, it does provide staying power for units in the above situations. I've also reason to believe that building upgrades for discipline can go far beyond +2. Try adding +10 or +20 in the build_prod and see what happens. Same goes for morale upgrades.

NB: The effects of discipline may not be limited to these situations, though I couldn't be entirely sure.
There is also some degree of ambiguity here - "highly disciplined units" could be both disciplined units and elite units (as is suggested in the info you get during battle).

Has anyone else noticed we've trailed off-topic just a touch?

**Beirut** · 08-11-2009, 00:24

Here's a dummy question: if I construct a building like the College of Surgeons, does it improve only the units built after it is up or all the units in the country?

**drone** · 08-11-2009, 03:10

Apart from the +40% province happiness bonus, I think the College of Surgeons only has a global effect. All generals in your empire should get the benefit of longer life. As far as I know, any building that upgrades specific unit capabilities (armour, weapons, morale, discipline) will only affect units recruited or retrained in the province after the building is up.