Patch 2 release date

[ergothead]

I am completely stunned that they don't have free beta-testers from the community. I've actually never heard of a gaming company using just it's developers to test a product. That explains much.

[Lusted]

I've actually never heard of a gaming company using just it's developers to test a product.

They're not, they use the devs to do the initial testing as they make the game, then it goes off to SEGA's testers for full testing.

[Bongaroo]

::whoops, active thread. this is a response to ergo::

I've heard of and seen plenty. Free beta testers usually cost more to organize than they are worth. Testing for bugs isn't all that exciting and glamorous as I'm sure your aware; I'm sure the cost/benefit and time to finish is better this way.

[FactionHeir]

I doubt they are actually testing for bugs rather than test for whether their fixes work.

Fixes that work will probably make it onto the final list and those that don't will be omitted but the code still implemented as it probably takes too much time to find which bits of code were useless.

They won't spend time finding new bugs as otherwise they might as well patch everything on the ORG buglist and other buglists and this is only one of many patches to come

[Odin]

I've heard of and seen plenty. Free beta testers usually cost more to organize than they are worth. Testing for bugs isn't all that exciting and glamorous as I'm sure your aware; I'm sure the cost/benefit and time to finish is better this way.

As aggrivating as I am about having to wait, i would much rather wait a few weeks more and get a patch that works right and fixes things. I have had to many expirences with games when a company releases a patch and it ends up screwing something else up *cough* paradox *cough*.

[Callahan9119]

i am content to wait if it means this will be a good patch. i'll happily wait an extra few weeks, rather than grumble to myself for the next 5 months about something they missed

i wish they would have waited an extra 6 months to release the game, i continue to lament that my beloved glorious achievments were left out of this version of mtw

[HoreTore]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

My guess at why it's taking longer than promised, is that they have found a new bug. I've been in the same situation myself(online game), so let's not stress them more than necessary.. I'm pretty sure they're stressed enough as it is already...

[Quickening]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

My guess at why it's taking longer than promised, is that they have found a new bug. I've been in the same situation myself(online game), so let's not stress them more than necessary.. I'm pretty sure they're stressed enough as it is already...

I was under the impression that the new launcher is just so that you can actually start the game from it which you can't do now.

[econ21]

I was under the impression that the new launcher is just so that you can actually start the game from it which you can't do now.

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was afraid I was going mad. Or that my computer just hated me.

[Jambo]

It is news and that is a good thing, but I'm not sure it is good news! ;)

My original, albeit pessimistic, bet on when patch 2 would arrive was guessed at 20th March. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be sadly close to correct.

Nevermind, back into lurking and obscurity for a minimum 3 weeks.

[Kraggenmor]

Or that my computer just hated me.

Computers hate us all.

The revolution is near.

[Quickening]

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was afraid I was going mad. Or that my computer just hated me.

To be honest I took a leap of faith there and hoped it wasn't just me

[Lusted]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

It's not as far as i aware, they're just building more features into it.

[Aquitaine]

>> I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Oh please. Outside of the MMO market, where patches can just be tested on a 'testing' server, I can't think of many dev hosues that use the public to beta test anything. Paradox, maybe, but even then it's just a small handful to complement the developers.

Using the public for stuff like this means you need an infrastructure to handle massive amounts of input (most of which will be worthless, since the number of people even on this forum who know both how to accurately test and properly report things can probably be counted on two hands) and you risk leaks of beta patches getting to the community, people installing them and hosing their computers, and then blaming CA.

Even if ten different devs were testing the patch at CA, one of the reasons you have a publisher is because they have a QA department (something most developers do not). It's not just a matter of noticing things like animation and shield bugs, which the community is very good at catching -- it's a matter of testing everyone on a zillion combinations of hardware, which means you need a lab and bunch of testers willing to do really boring stuff over and over and over again on different machines.

If the entire basis of your argument is 'their business model is flawed because I won't have the patch when I want it' then you might want to look at your motivation for your criticism. If the patch wasn't tested and broke something new, or else didn't properly fix something and created new problems for modders, you can expect that they'd hear about it on these forums. It's not like they're capriciously holding it back. They get to release x number of patches and it's a considerable undertaking to do so -- they don't want to release it and then a week later go 'oh, wait, actually download this too.'

If relying on the public was such a great business idea, it would be done much more often than it is. The fact is that most (but certainly not all) of the public doesn't know how to properly do QA work even if they are great at catching certain types of problems, and that using the public introduces significant risks as well. They have a process that they think works, or at least it's the best deal they could cut with Sega. Seems to be an improvement over what they had with Activision, anyway.

[Lorenzo_H]

This is good news.

[derfinsterling]

I'm confused on why it is supposed to be bad that Sega tests whatever CA hands over.
Developers aren't good testers. Better to have a dedicated team to test a piece of software than just the guys who wrote it in the first place.
I work at an Austrian IT provider and we have one department that does the development (and basic tests), then, when the devs say they're all done, they hand it over to the test department who test the crap out of the software.

Then, when the testers say they're run and "all"* bugs have been ironed out, we hand the thing over to our customers and *demand* that they test the software again.
That's pretty much for legal purposes. If a piece of software goes live and then crashes, we at least share the liability together with our client because he didn't properly check the application before giving the green light.

And there a still a few bugs that pop up in the real world. Sure, it's frustrating, but that's pretty much the way it is. Sadly, software isn't finished, it's released.







* "all" meaning whatever percentage of bugs fixed was originally set as the goal with the customer.

[ergothead]

>> I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Oh please. Outside of the MMO market, where patches can just be tested on a 'testing' server, I can't think of many dev hosues that use the public to beta test anything. Paradox, maybe, but even then it's just a small handful to complement the developers.

Using the public for stuff like this means you need an infrastructure to handle massive amounts of input (most of which will be worthless, since the number of people even on this forum who know both how to accurately test and properly report things can probably be counted on two hands) and you risk leaks of beta patches getting to the community, people installing them and hosing their computers, and then blaming CA.

Even if ten different devs were testing the patch at CA, one of the reasons you have a publisher is because they have a QA department (something most developers do not). It's not just a matter of noticing things like animation and shield bugs, which the community is very good at catching -- it's a matter of testing everyone on a zillion combinations of hardware, which means you need a lab and bunch of testers willing to do really boring stuff over and over and over again on different machines.

If the entire basis of your argument is 'their business model is flawed because I won't have the patch when I want it' then you might want to look at your motivation for your criticism. If the patch wasn't tested and broke something new, or else didn't properly fix something and created new problems for modders, you can expect that they'd hear about it on these forums. It's not like they're capriciously holding it back. They get to release x number of patches and it's a considerable undertaking to do so -- they don't want to release it and then a week later go 'oh, wait, actually download this too.'

If relying on the public was such a great business idea, it would be done much more often than it is. The fact is that most (but certainly not all) of the public doesn't know how to properly do QA work even if they are great at catching certain types of problems, and that using the public introduces significant risks as well. They have a process that they think works, or at least it's the best deal they could cut with Sega. Seems to be an improvement over what they had with Activision, anyway.

Before you make such a lengthy reply, you should read all that was written. I did not realize the exact relationship between CA and SEGA, it's a unique relatioinship between gaming partners that I have not seen before. This means that CA relies on SEGA for the larger scale testing. The process they are using puts a huge burden on the devs, and quite frankly, makes the process of making solid patches very difficult to pull off. If this next patch is a failure, as I said before, blame the process, not the devs.

Also, I was not talking about allowing a crapload of random public peeps for the beta test, but a handful of very good, carefully chose ones. This isn't just in the MMO market either, it is becoming very prevalent in FPS games, and has been prevalent in RTS games for a long time. Heck, even EA has started doing it. Sure, some leaks will happen sometimes. but consider that against a much better product released a lot sooner and it's a no-brainer.

Please, make sure you read all the content before replying, I'm not to fond of repeating myself in the same thread.

[Dan.o6]

Nice patch size, shame about the February release. Guess I'll keep playing WoW until it comes out.

[Gingivitis]

Looks like I can continue my current game with a clear conscience knowing I won't be starting another one for a few weeks at least.

[alpaca]

Well the relationship between SEGA and CA is more like a subsidiary if you ask me. SEGA pays for CA employees though, and they pretty much tell them what to do, I guess (for example what to work on, like patches, tools or an expansion).
So, it's only natural they want to test the product before it's released, and professional testers have a lot of merits (such as they know pretty well what to look for and are not too closely-connected to the game, which can often be an advantage).

And I guess it was pushed back because some issues with new features or fixes cropped up.

[econ21]

And I guess it was pushed back because some issues with new features or fixes cropped up.

I suspect the discovery of the shield bug came after the patch was fairly advanced - it did not make the initial fix list, for example - and threw the original timetable into disarray. Rebalancing in the wake of that bug was probably quite an undertaking.

[ergothead]

::whoops, active thread. this is a response to ergo::

I've heard of and seen plenty. Free beta testers usually cost more to organize than they are worth. Testing for bugs isn't all that exciting and glamorous as I'm sure your aware; I'm sure the cost/benefit and time to finish is better this way.

You don't need a large pool. Honestly, just from these forums alone, they could draw 10 to 15 great testers that would diligently accept the assignment, and require little direction. But you are right, it is neither glamorous or exciting, but with a small solid group, who get thier names in the credits for payment, it would be easy to organise, costless to implement and would put out a better product and in a much quicker time frame. All you need to do is do it right by having a solid, streamlined, repeatable process.

[Erik Bloodaxe]

You don't need a large pool. Honestly, just from these forums alone, they could draw 10 to 15 great testers that would diligently accept the assignment, and require little direction. But you are right, it is neither glamorous or exciting, but with a small solid group, who get thier names in the credits for payment, it would be easy to organise, costless to implement and would put out a better product and in a much quicker time frame. All you need to do is do it right by having a solid, streamlined, repeatable process.

Sounds like a great idea! but I doubt it will happend:(

[a_ver_est]

I hope the big size of the patch means a lot of bugs fixed.

Anyway now I am sure which I going to have time enought to finish my current long campaing without rushing.