Imperial Diet II

[econ21]

(Prinz Henry walks over to the guards at the entrance to the Diet debating chamber and points to the departing 5th Elector of Bavaria, whispering:) Do not let that man back in unless he has come to apologise.

[Warluster]

Jobst Von Salza watches the Elector leave, and spits in disgust
I thought only Austrians did that
Laughed Jobst VOn Salza quietly to himself, then he stood

I shall hope no more Electors act like that, as the fifth Elector of Bavaria will have somethign to fear, when I chop his head off.

Von Salza spits at where the Elector used to sit, and sits, clearly disgusted

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony

"Can i ask some ORDER,in the Diet? Have my fellow Electors forgotten,where they are? This is Imperial Diet,not some Tavern full of cuththroats!"

Dietrich sits down on his place looking irritated.

[OverKnight]

Gunther of Eichstadt clears his throat and reads another message from Otto:

"The Fifth Elector of Bavaria has been punished for his repeated threats of bodily harm to the Kaiser in the Diet. My ruling has been dispensed in the Bavarian quarters and I will not go into details here.

It is up to the Prinz, who imposed order in the Diet itself, when to allow him reentry into the chamber.

I hope we may continue our deliberations, particularly in the upcoming session, with a bit more decorum, no stabbings please."

At the mention of stabbings, Gunther looks around nervously and then takes his seat.

[TinCow]

On a completely unrelated note, I have spent a good deal of time during my Chancellorship visiting many of our settlements. During this tour, I have noticed that we have a large number of Thieves Guilds in the Reich, particularly in the Italian provinces. Not only is it rather un-Christian to promote theivery in this manner, but it is also denying many provinces the opportunity to gain the assistance of more useful Guilds. I would urge all lords to examine their provinces closely and inform me if they wish to make any changes to the Guilds that they find present there.

[Stuperman]

Congratulations to Duke Leopold for his success at Zagreb

[econ21]

[Prinz Henry]: I echo the Chancellor's remarks about thieves guilds. I would also ask Counts to review whether they wish to keep brothels in their settlements. I fear these sinful places will encourage any generals garrisoned there to pick up vices and bad traits.

[GeneralHankerchief]

A message is posted in the Diet for all to see:

"Due to the capital of the Reich being moved to Rome, deliberations will no longer take place in Frankfurt. Kindly make your way to the old Senate building in the Eternal City if you wish to partake in discussions."

Kaiser Heinrich:

Welcome, Good Electors, to Rome! I figured that since this is the Holy Roman Empire we should have our esteemed deliberations in this great city! History is all around us here... wow, I can still see a few red marks on the floor from when those two clerks were killed. But there are more important matters to be discussed than the glory of civilizations long past.

I am pleased to announce that Antipope Gregory's reign of terror is over, at long last!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

With it came the reconciliation of Sicily and Milan...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

...and thus the cancellation of the crusade to Tunis.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It seems that due to all the excitement and pressure of being a Preferati, the Milanese cardinal and favorite to ascend to the Papacy, Evio the Warmonger, has succumbed to a sudden heart attack. Oddly enough, the garrison of Milan was around when it happened and reported it to me directly, instead of waiting for Chancellor Mandorf. Oh well. At least now Otterbach is only one away from being a Preferati.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

However, we have not yet been reconciled, and I am aware that this may concern some Electors that fear for my soul, as well as the Reich's. Therefore, I am hereby calling an emergency session of the Diet to address this concern.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do have a strategy in mind to combat this. I have decided to allow the College of Cardinals to retain the rights to elect a Pope, at least for now. I accept that I will have to deal with the concept of the preferati. However, my influence in selecting the new Pope will remain great.

I am putting all of my backing behind the esteemed Cardinal from Portugal in the upcoming election. He is quite old, as you know, older than Antipope Gregory was or I am. His Papacy will be a short one, and when he dies, Otterbach will ascend to the Preferati, where... erm... he will promptly be elected to Pope.

However, this may not be enough to sway some Electors. Since the crusade on Tunis has been cancelled, we will now undergo the specific waiting period until a new one may be called. Since Otterbach will surely be Pope when this period expires, we shall be able to use our good standing with... him to call a new one towards a specific target, any target we have in mind. Once this crusade is called, we will join up, and you Electors can all save your souls that I have put in danger.

If successfully taken, I propose that this new target (probably Jerusalem) be the new, permanent home of the Papacy. Meanwhile, we will conquer another territory in the Holy Land and establish a permanent base there.

This session of the Diet is only for discussing this proposal as well as ones related to the prospect of a new Crusade. Edicts that do not pertain will be ignored and left off the list. The normal Session in 1160 will have ample time to do so. This session will last for two days with a voting period of one day. Discussion begins now.

*bangs gavel*

[TinCow]

*Chancellor Mandorf turns to the Kaiser and bows. His descent continues to an angle which is sufficient to show proper gentlemanly respect, but stops short of gratuitous submission. He then straightens and exchanges a long, cold look with the Kaiser. Finally, he sighs heavily and turns to face the Diet.*

Electors, I have expended much effort to bring us here today. I have given an oath that I will not use this session of the Diet to criticize the Kaiser, to discuss the events regarding Pope Gregory and the taking of Rome, nor to propose any legislation which would reduce the Kaiser's influence, increase the influence of the Ducal Houses, or otherwise distract from the reason this Emergency Session has been called. Out of respect for myself, the Kaiser, and the fact that I have made an oath before Christ on these matters, I very firmly request that none of you engage in any of the activities that I myself have promised to abstain from. I cannot prevent you from speaking or from proposing Edicts on these matters, but I am a man of my word and I will actively oppose any statements criticizing the Kaiser during this session. Furthermore, I state here and now that I will vote against every single Edict which is proposed here today which does not relate directly to the reason we have assembled.

We are gathered here today to discuss salvation. We are gathered here today to discuss our souls and the afterlife. There are many different feelings about the events which have come to pass over the last several years. Some of us feel that we have sinned greatly and we fear for our immortal souls. It is to those who no longer know for sure their fate on the Day of Judgment that I now speak.

Electors, Christian Brothers, Romans, we must make penance for our sins. Whether we are right or wrong, we feel that we have made a stain that cannot be cleansed by simple means and small measures. It will require a grand effort, a great achievement, to feel that we have redeemed ourselves in the eyes of the Lord. There is only one method that I know of which can ensure that all of us will ascend to Heaven upon our deaths.

*Mandorf turns and faces the East end of the Diet chamber. He raises his arm and points towards the rising sun.*

That is where our salvation lies, my brothers. In the East. In Jerusalem. We will find our salvation by CRUSADE! I set a mission before you, Electors. Let us take up arms in the name of God. Let us travel to the land of Christ and take the Holy City from the Infidels. Once Jerusalem has been captured, let us then give the territory to the sitting Pope. It is only fitting that the Vicar of Christ rule from the City of Christ. Can any of you say that Florence is a seat befitting a Pope? Is Nuremberg? Frankfurt? Vienna? Staufen? No, my Electors. There is no province in our possession which can equal the splendor of Rome. Yet Jerusalem would be the most glorious seat of them all. Surely an Imperial Crusade to recapture Jerusalem for the Pope will be sufficient penance to earn our place in Heaven.

I note that the Kaiser has stated that this Crusade should occur with Papal authority after the appropriate waiting period has expired. I respectfully disagree. It could be many, many decades before a Crusade is called again and even then we will not likely be in favorable regard with the Pope. We must embark on this Crusade NOW, on our own, without Papal support. Indeed, the entire purpose of the Crusade is to demonstrate to the new Pope, and whomever may follow him, that the Reich is a land of Christ, worthy of his high regard. It is through the capture of Jerusalem and its donation to the Pope that we shall receive reconciliation.

I ask all Houses to voluntarily commit resources to this great journey. A very large professional army will be required, as it will be far from our lands and will not be easily reinforced. Many generals will be needed to make the Crusade. We may have to capture several territories in the Holy Land once we arrive and we will need competent commanders to defend and keep order in the new provinces.

Yet, we also have an immense need for some to remain behind. I suspect that many of you will wish to make the journey East. However, please consider what can also be done at home. The Crusade will take many, many years. Our enemies at home will not cease their attacks on us. Those that remain behind will have to defend all the Reich's borders and keep the Empire safe until the Crusade succeeds. They will lead the Household Armies in battle time and time again and become mighty defenders of the Roman people. Indeed, the very strain the Crusade will place upon our resources will provide those who remain behind with many opportunities to win salvation and improve their character.

It can be no secret that I wish to go on this Crusade. Yet, I say before you here and now that if the enlistment threatens to deprive the Reich of military leaders, I shall remain behind. This Crusade is necessary for our salvation, but we must not allow it to endanger our homelands.

I now present you with a draft Edict to make this Crusade into law. I have condensed several pieces of legislation into a single Edict, as I can only present one to this body at the moment without consultation with others. Please consider this Edict a draft version, which I will happily alter if you good men deem it necessary. If any of you wish to propose other Edicts relating to the Crusade, please do so.

Edict E1.1: In an effort to make penance for whatever sins we have incurred upon our souls during the violent overthrow and death of Pope Greogry, the Reich will launch a Crusade to capture the Holy City of Jerusalem. After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the sitting Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: For the duration of the Crusade, the Reich will refrain from conquering any Catholic settlement and instead focus on defending the borders from outside attack and developing our provinces. This Edict does not apply to Thorn, Venice, and Breslau, nor does it apply to any settlement of the Reich which is captured by our enemies.
6: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.

Let us take charge of our futures, Christian brothers! Let us campaign for our souls, for the Reich, and for the glory of God!

(OOC: Please read the OOC thread. There are several OOC issues which make the Crusade a good idea and we can discuss those there.)

[TevashSzat]

I do not think we should go on a crusade towards the Holy Lands because the journey is always trecherous with many potential enemies that could sink our ships. Also, should we be successful, we shall be faced with an empire in the Levant to govern which will surely drain up all of our money.

Should we give the newly captured to the Pope, even more trouble may arise as the Egyptians and Turks do not hide their feelings of animosity towards the Christian nations and would not hesitate to attack the territory of the Pope and may even kill the pope that we are supporting.

I do not know how the Edicts are numbered in this emergency session but I propose Edict 1.2 No crusades shall be launched or joined on any targets excessively far away from the empire

[econ21]

[Prinz Henry]: I fervently second the Chancellor's edict E1.1 for a crusade on Jerusalem. I believe the 4th Swabian Elector does not understand the rationale for this crusade.

It is because the path is treacherous and full of enemies that we must travel it. We seek to atone for our sins and it is only by undertaking a quest of this difficulty that we will do so.

It is because we stand to create an Empire in the Levant that this crusade is worthy. The Elector worries about money - the Holy Land is potentially rich, a crossroads for trade with the east. But regardless, no great Empire was ever formed by being afraid of spending money.

It is because a Christian Jersualem will always be the target of animosity from the Turks and Egyptians that we must be there to protect it. With us fighting at the side of the Papacy, no Muslim will prevail. By saving the life of the new Pope, we shall redeem the terrible crime of felling the old.

[TevashSzat]

Will be be carving out a new kingdom then in the Levant? Maximillion speaks of giving Jerusalem to the Pope, yet how can we protect the Pope without a base nearby to retrain our soldiers? The only way that we can is if we carve out a kingdom in the Levant. It is true that no great empire has been created due to being stingy, but you wouldn't be very happy should the retraining of troops in Europe be delayed for the sake of the troops in the Levant.

Also, has any logistics been thought out? Will be captured cities be left alone, sacked, or exterminated? Should the city will be left alone, many innocent people will be shared, but no money shall be made and there shall be no doubt that whispers of revolt shall appear merely days after our liberation. Furthermore, most of the population are Muslims who will not take pride in being governed by Christians requiring extremely large garrisons. One from the royal family may even need to consistently stay within a city in order to install public order. Do not let religious fervor blind you from the consequences of your actions.

[TinCow]

It is for exactly these reasons that the Crusade should be undertaken. The difficulties are the entire purpose. I fully expect that multiple settlements would be taken along the way, depending on the route the Crusade takes. Perhaps some generals would volunteer to stay behind and defend isolated castles as outposts of Christianity. Such a choice would be a great challenge to them and provide a valuable life-line to the advancing army. On the other hand, perhaps the Crusaders would choose to keep their forces concentrated and hope for victories without casualties to maintain their numbers, rather than reinforcements from captured castles. These would be choices the Crusaders would have to make for themselves.

[FactionHeir]

Edict E1.3: In an effort to make penance for whatever sins we have incurred upon our souls during the violent overthrow and death of Pope Greogry, the Reich will launch a Crusade to capture the Holy City of Jerusalem. After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the sitting Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: For the duration of the Crusade, the Reich will refrain from conquering any Catholic settlement and instead focus on defending the borders from outside attack and developing our provinces. This Edict does not apply to Thorn, Venice, and Breslau, nor does it apply to any settlement of the Reich which is captured by our enemies.
6: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.


This is what I propose fellow electors. It is only right that we continue to expand in Europe to support our crusading efforts and prevent our warmongering, treacherous and murderous neighbors from striking us when we least expect it!

[Ignoramus]

The Sixth Elector of Swabia rises to his feet.

Mein electors, I agree with Chancellor Mandorf. The infidel defile the Holy City with their mosques and imams. We must restore the Holy City back to Christian hands.

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony

"I support Mandorfs suggestion on going to Crusade to wash our sins away. What i dont support is that those who will stay defending the Reich,should just sit behind their castle walls,fending of enemies of the Reich. I think true men should take the war to the enemy always and not hide behind walls.

[FactionHeir]

Well said Dietrich von Sachsen!

It is bad enough that some of us shall be left behind to fend for ourselves and deal with rebellious slaves but cower behind walls like womenfolk and watch as the enemy devastates our lands, cuts our supply chains and razes villages and murders our German servants? I say that is completely unacceptable!

Those left behind should be able to decide for themselves what they wish to do instead of being bound to sit back and gain more vices in the taverns due to depression!

[TinCow]

I most certainly did not intend for the Edict to require us to cower behind walls! A defensive stance at home can still mean attacking enemy armies in their territories as well as ours. All that was stated in the Edict was that we refrain from taking Catholic settlements. If anything, I would expect that those who remained behind would be more active militarily than many of those who went on Crusade. There are only 11 capable generals in the Reich today. If 6 of them went on Crusade, they would have at most 2 armies to command between them and many would risk death in battle due to the vagaries of the battlefield. The 5 who remained at home would be required to command the 4 Household Armies against 4 active enemies on multiple fronts. They would be absolutely guaranteed of regular battle.

[FactionHeir]

Then why restrict the taking of settlements? If we do not take them, the enemy will only train more men to send against us and reap the rewards of trade and land. If we are allowed to fight the enemy in their territory as you say, why not take the capitol of the region while we are at it? Your words make no sense my chancellor and as such I feel that this one part of your edict will lead to its downfall.

[Stuperman]

As Maximillian points out, nothing in the edict prevents active defence, in fact fighting battles on foreign lands saves our from devostation.

[ArchdukeEvan]

Stands in the reletive calm after the

As my possition states... I support Edict E1.3 a crusade is a great idea and will surly ratify the Reichs position in Europe as the dominate power to all threats... but even with our glorious crusade we must still spread our influance in Europe... the Holy Land is far from our borders with France and Poland and Hungary...

sits after adressing the remaining members

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony

"I dont know how sinfull you feel at the moment my fellow Germans,but i propose that only one Duke or Count and the Electors of each house shall stay behind. These men should not be hampered by artificial restrictions what they can and what they cant do. I suggest that the rest of us will take the Cross and lead by Kaiser will go to meet our destiny,whether it is glorious or salvation, or both."

[Stuperman]

Your words make no sense my chancellor and as such I feel that this one part of your edict will lead to its downfall.

No it is your words that make no sense. You suggest we continue to make war on catholic nations, actions that got Venice and Milan excommunicated, but at the same time suggest we attempt to please the pope by going on this crusade in his name, with the hopes ther we will have our excommunication lifted.

Surely what you are suggesting would only serve to cancel each other out, and over extend the riech's forces.

although I would support Marseille being added to the exceptions list.

[FactionHeir]

No it is your words that make no sense. You suggest we continue to make war on catholic nations, actions that got Venice and Milan excommunicated, but at the same time suggest we attempt to please the pope by going on this crusade in his name, with the hopes ther we will have our excommunication lifted.

Surely what you are suggesting would only serve to cancel each other out, and over extend the riech's forces.

although I would support Marseille being added to the exceptions list.

Then you surely wish to tell me why it is wrong to take a settlement when the chancellor himself confirmed that we may continue battling on foreign soil? Do you think the pope will be any more or less happy if we take a settlement and allow good German settlers to spread our culture and conviction? Do you realize that good Christians will not have to die if we can take those settlements instead of letting our enemies continue to push the populace to throw themselves into our swords and spears? Peace through victory!

[Stuperman]

perhaps we are misunderstanding each other, the wording of your edict, to me, indicated that there would be continued campaigning throughout europe, with catholic against catholic. Actions that would meet with papal disaproval, at a time when we are looking to improve relations with the pope.

I have no quams with fighting heathens though with thier twisted biblical interpertations, and false prophets, that is why I support the Chancellor's call for this crusade!

(OOC: no offence about the religious stuff, just playing the character)

[FactionHeir]

I did not suggest in my edict that there would be constant campaigning - only that there should be no restrictions on it if our both important and revered generals who regrettably have to remain here wish to expand or feel the need to.
As I said, it is bad enough for them to have to stay here - why make it even harder?

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopold rises from his stand and extends regal bows to the Kaiser and the Chancellor, before turning his full attention to the Diet.

I wholeheartedly agree with Chancellor Mandorf that the recent struggle between Emperor Heinrich and the false Pope Gregory have cast shadows on our every souls. God has favoured Heinrich in the battle against Gregory, surely this shows that God favours the Reich and its inhabitants. However the spell of excommunication may not be taken lightly from our shoulders.
A Crusade is a noble and holy cause that will purify the soul of every man that undertakes this difficult journey. I agree that we should not be shocked or thrown back by the difficulties this will impose on the Reich, a sacrifice is necessary to right the wrongs caused by us in the past. Much Christian blood has been shed and it is our divine duty to remedy our sins by freeing the city where Jesus, God's own son, our saviour, has accomplished so much in his lifetime. That heathens now control the city and soil the sacred halls can not be tolerated. I therefore support the call for a Crusade and would be the first to take up the cross and journey East!

What is this talk of an unsanctioned Crusade, that Mandorf has proposed though? Without the divine mandate of God's representative on Earth any army marching East will be nothing more than a conquering, plundering host. It does not matter how noble and pious our hearts and goals may be on the upcoming journey, but without the blessing of the leader of Christendom we would be nothing more than invaders, and instead of salvation and the forgiveness of our sins, only more bloodshed will lie at the end of our journey.
To even think of undertaking this holiest of journeys in the Name of our Lord and Christ while we're standing outside of the church sounds like blasphemy to my ears!

The struggle has been between Heinrich and Gregory, the holder of the office, not the office itself. An unlawful upsurper that has been overthrown by the continued and persistent effort of our beloved Kaiser!
We have to seek unity with the new Papacy again, by showing them that our recent actions were not aimed at the Holy See, but against Gregory and his false claims! What better way to show them our reverence than to give them what has been theirs ever since Saint Peter. I urge every one here to consider giving the Papacy what has been rightfully theirs, give them Rome!
Reconciliation would be assured for us and a great amount of our sins repaid with little effort. Once this has been done it will only be another small step to persuade whoever holds the office to grant us our mission, to sanction our journey East, to give us the divine mandate we need to accomplish the holiest of all journeys!

You want the Pope to wait until this long journey is finished before granting them any land? Would you have them ponder around these lands without shelter, knocking on the doors of every Duke and King to gain entrance like some poor beggar? This is no way to treat God's representative on Earth, the Pope! If we give them back what is rightfully theirs and was only taken to weaken Gregory's position, we will be assured of their eternal gratitude. No longer can they claim that they proclaim the Kaiser, when we are the ones that have given them the powerbase they need to oversee the well-being of all Christendom.
Also consider that other countries may approach the new Pope to offer him the shelter he so desperately needs, thus raising themselves above their fellow Catholics as preservers and saviours of the Papacy. For a long time they would hold sway over the Holy See, while we would be left with an unauthorized expedition to nowhere that would lead to nothing.

Because of all the reasons above I present you a rough draft of Edict E1.4:
The City of Rome is to be returned to whichever Cardinal gets elected as Pope in the upcoming Elections.
Once we have been reconciled and the proper amount of time has passed we will ask the current Pope to call a Crusade against Jerusalem so that every man in the Empire willing to take up the sword may do so to redeem the sins we have laden upon us in the recent bloodshed between Emperor Heinrich and Gregory.
After the city is captured, it will be given as a gift to the current Pope, to allow him to permanently reign over Christendom from the land of Christ. The Crusade will be governed as follows:

1: Every general who wishes to join the Crusade may do so.
2: For the duration of the Crusade, all limits on army composition will not apply to any Crusade armies.
3: The Crusade is authorized to declare war on any non-Catholic faction it encounters, if it deems such a declaration of war to be necessary.
4: All strategic decisions regarding the Crusade, such as choice of settlements to attack and commanders of the Crusading armies, will be made by the generals who participate in the Crusade. All decisions will be made by majority vote, without regard for earthly influence. We are all equal in the eyes of God on this Holy Mission.
5: All Edicts relating to the Crusade will remain in effect until the Papacy governs Jerusalem or until every last Crusader lies dead, whichever comes first.


If you have anything you wish to be changed or amended to this Edict please speak up. You may notice that I have taken the liberty to base some of my draft on Chancellor Mandorfs propositions. While his ideas ring true with me, a Crusade is only a Crusade if authorized by Papal law, and I will not join or support any other military action that aims on imitating this holy and honorable journey!

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony

"Leopold,once again you have shown us your good character and clear judgement. But im afraid,it is only the Kaiser,who has the authority to give out settlements away. So Mein Kaiser, what say you? Will you give Rome back to Holy Church?"

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Rome is the new capital of the Reich, not the Papacy. I would prefer it if I spent my final years on Earth in happy, peaceful retirement, only fighting to defend the city from whomever may attack it. No, Rome is out of the question. The focus will be on whether we give the Papacy one of our current territories, a territory in the Holy Land, or no territories at all.

As for which of these Edicts to support, I am still undecided between E1.1 and E1.3. Therefore, I hereby second both of them in the name of increased discussion.

[Northnovas]

I would like to add further to my Duke's words that a Crusade cannot be a Crusade without true authorization. An amendment to Edict 1.4 would be after the conquering of the Holy Land. The City of Jerusalem will be gifted to the Pope and Rome returned to the Reich.