Imperial Diet II

[econ21]

[OOC] This thread is for players in the King of the Romans PBM to post in character public deliberations in the Imperial Diet. All out of character debate should be conducted in the OOC thread.

The Diet has two main functions: to elect a Chancellor, who manage the Empire, and to pass Edicts that will direct the Chancellor.

The Diet will be chaired by Kaiser or, in his absence, by the Prinz.

Edicts need to be formally proposed as follows:

Edict 1.1This House directs the Chancellor to occupy Hamburg.

where 1.1 refers to the first proposed edict of the first session of the Diet.

Edicts need two seconders (who should explicitly use the word "second" when supporting a motion) before they can be put to the vote. Where edicts conflict, the one with more votes takes precedence.

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Summary of Edicts proposed in 8th Session of Diet (current up to post #532)

NB: Deadline for proposing and seconding votes is 2pm UK time Thursday.

Edict 8.1: The Milanese will be offered peace and trade rights with at most 5,000 florins as an incentive. If they refuse, they are to be destroyed expeditiously by taking Corsica and Sardinia, unless we are delayed from doing so by a Papal Bull. Once both islands are in our possession, Sardinia will be offered to the Sicilians in exchange for florins and/or their good will.
Proposed: Otto von Kassel
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Gerhard Steffen

Edict 8.2: The Chancellor must end the alliance with the Moors. The Chancellor may not seek an alliance with any Muslim nation for any reason.
Proposed:: Maximillian Mandorf
Seconded: Count of Zagreb 3rd Elector, Ulrich Hümmel

Edict 8.3: As soon as possible a second Crusade to the Holy Lands should be called by Emperor Henry. The target would depend on the current situation but should be one of the places mentioned in the Emperors draft for the Kingdom of Outremere.
At least one Franconian and Austrian general should participate so that each House will be represented in this new Kingdom.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Hans, Otto Kassel

Edict. 8.4 Franconia is allowed to capture the city of Krakow.Unless Pope directs and ultimatum for the Reich for the cessation of hostilities with Poland.
Proposed: Count Jonas Von Mahren
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Günther von Kastilien

Edict 8.5: The Swabian House army will be allowed to take one French settlement after the Pope has rescinded his threat of excommunication. However, should the French invade Swabia with an army greater than 1000 able bodied men or an army lead by a respected commander, the Swabian army shall destroy said army and then counterinvade French territories
Proposed: Fredrich Scherer
Seconded: Prinz Von Salza, Duke Leopold

Edict 8.6 During the next Chancellors term a group of merchants and priests shall be dispatched to at least one of the following places, preferrably both:
- The far reaches south of the great Saharan desert.
- The Nile upward in the south of Egypt.
A group should consist of at least three merchants and priests each.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded:Count of Venice, Count of Zagreb

Edict 8.7 The Chancellor shall try to find peace with the Venetians as soon as possible. A moderate amount of florins may be used to persuade them. Should the Venetians decline, subsequent raids towards their holdings in Durazzo and Thessalonica, resulting in possible razing or extermination of those cities, shall teach them the error of their ways.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded:Count of Venice, Count of Zagreb

Charter Amendment 8.1
Clause 1:
Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.
Clause 2:
Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Count of Zagreb 3rd Elector; Hans

Charter Amendment 8.2:The lands in the Levant shall be assigned by the Council of Crusaders. The King of the Outremer shall also be elected by the Crusaders. The Diet shall still discuss matters concerning the Holy Land, but the Council of Crusaders can put forward more than the maximum number of edicts, providing they concern the Holy Land.
Proposed: Ulrich Hümmel

Charter Amendment 8.3: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.
Proposed: Duke Otto
Seconded: Maximillan Mandorf, Hans


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Prinz Henry: Electors, may I be the first to congratulate him Maximillan Mandorf on his election as our new Chancellor. Having overseen the House of Franconia, he must now also act as Steward to the entire Empire, beset as it by assaults by Venice, Polan, Milan and - we expect imminently - France.

[TinCow]

Electors, I thank you for the trust you have placed in me. I shall begin work immediately.

I urge all Counts to post build queues for their settlements as soon as possible.

[TevashSzat]

I hope that you may have a prosperous and succesful reign Maximillion

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I am alarmed at the Chancellor's report that no new construction is possible. If we prioritise recruitment of troops before buildings, we are putting the horse before the cart. Investing wisely in buildings will provide the surplus that will allow us to support a larger army. If we recruit the larger army first, we will never attain the surplus that will allow us to upgrade our buildings.

I am particularly concerned about upgrading Staufen to a fortress. Is that one of the new constructions that is not possible or is it exempt because Sigismund already queued it? I believe the upgrade to a fortress is a particularly significant one for all Household armies, as it gives us access to dismounted feudal knights and pavisse crossbowmen. Dismounted knights will be a great advantage in siege situations (whether defending or attacking), and will also be useful in countering enemy spears in field battles. Pavisses will give us missile superiority over many of our foes. Cutting back on the upgrade to a fortress in order to buy a few more armoured spearmen would be a false economy.

[Ignoramus]

Count Sigismund der Furchtlose gets to his feet.

I second what Prinz Henry says. It is madness for us not to upgrade Staufen to a fortress. How can we hope to fight the French on level terms if we do not even have one fortress, while they have two! The Reich boasts the best spearmen in Europe, yet even a spear is useless against a sword. Our blacksmiths are so stretched that they can only provide swords for our Ritters. I urge the Chancellor to cease this madness!

Count Sigismund resumes his seat.

[FactionHeir]

The prince speaks wise words.
What is the point of recruiting a household army made of peasants and lowly spearmen rather than improving our economy and ability to produce better troops to fight our wars?
While we are recruiting troops, we also need to pay and feed them for as long as they serve us, straining our ability to build at the same time.

I suggest that buildings go first and training last - when we actually need the additional troops.
While household armies are a priority, a better trained one is of even higher priority.

[Kagemusha]

Duke Of Franconia speaks up:

"I will speak shortly,since i must leave to Magdeburg soon. While i agree with Prinz Henry,that Swabia needs the fortress to create troops of high quality. The thing is that we are in transitional phase. While we have enough men both in South and West currently.East and North needs the manpower badly. Once we have the men,we will start gaining revenue from the spoils of war. Chancellors job is to stand between individual houses and balance the revenue of gold. But isnt it more important for Austria and Franconia to have forces that can beat their enemies, rather then,how good units others can build later. Im sure the hold in building projects is just temporary anyway. Now i must leave the Diet,since my counts are starting to engage the enemy and i should be with our main army."

Dietrich Von Saxony leaves the Diet.

[TinCow]

*One of the Chancellor's scribes clears his throat.*

Surely the Duke of Swabia is aware that Chancellor der Stolze made the investment for the fortress in Staufen during his own term. Accordingly, construction will begin on that structure this year, despite the lack of other expenditures on buildings. Chancellor Mandorf has not even been able to find sufficient funds to repair the wall of Bologna, one of Bavaria's own cities, yet he still let Chancellor der Stolze's construction orders at Staufen stand out of respect for his office. Hopefully the Duke of Swabia has as much concern for the security of Franconia and Austria as he does for the improvement of his own lands.

The Chancellor would also like me to inform you that priority constructions will resume next year.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Scribe, as should be clear by my earlier query, your Prinz is aware that Sigismund had already authorised the fortress upgrade for Staufen. However, Sigismund had not made the investment - no money had been spent. That is why I asked whether Sigismund's decision meant Staufen was exempt from the Chancellor's moratorium on buildings. Nonetheless, I am glad to hear Staufen is exempt and that the Chancellor has authorised the necessary expenditure for its upgrade.

As to your arch remark about my concerns, my concerns are not a matter for scribes. Especially ones who cannot see that a fortress in Staufen will contribute to the security of Franconia and Austria. The troops a fortress at Staufen could produce are not earmarked for any one House and we have no other fortresses capable of producing them at present.

[TinCow]

*Maximillian Mandorf enters, fresh from bringing Christian justice to lowly highwaymen. He glares at his scribe and gestures towards the door. The man sheepishly slips out.*

Perhaps I should give that man a history lesson on what happens to insolent scribes in places such as this.

*Mandorf sighs.*

My Prince, I understand the theory of how investments in future construction work, but you must also understand reality. The reality is that when I assumed my post, the construction of the fortress had already begun and the appropriate monies had already been deducted from the Imperial treasury. As my scribe stated, I have respected that situation and let the orders stand. You should be most grateful for this, for I most certainly would not have otherwise given priority to construction of that facility at this time.

You accuse me of putting the cart before the horse, yet you are doing the same, my Lord. We have three castles capable of producing decent, professional soldiers. They are certainly not of a quality to make the world shake with fear, but they will perform admirably for the time being. What we need more than anything is not soldiers or even the facilities to produce more soldiers. What we need is money.

Accordingly, it is my full intention to give favor to financial structures and only allow for military construction when there is extra money to spare or when it is essential for the security of the Reich. I understand you will likely vehemently disagree with this assessment, but I believe it to be correct and under the current circumstances, it is my decision to make.

During my campaign for Chancellor, I pledged one thing above all others: giving the Houses the means with which to defend themselves. Austria and Franconia are horrendously vulnerable to attack and their defense cannot wait for armored knights to be produced from Staufen a decade from now. They must be immediately given the forces they need to protect their lands. Accordingly, my priorities are as follows:

First, to immediately increase the professional military strength of Austria and Franconia. Second, to repair the walls of Bologna and invest in new financial structures. Third, to reorganize the defense of cities so that they are garrisoned by militia which do not require pay out of the Imperial treasury. Fourth, to improve the military infrastructure of the Reich.

No doubt there will be much future disagreement with my policies...

*Mandorf's face grows cold and he stares straight at the Prince.*

...but I do not care for petty squabbling over every minutia of my policies. I will do what I believe is right for the betterment of a Christian Reich! That does not include giving favor to any one House or to any one Elector. If you wished for a Chancellor who would pour the Imperial treasury into Staufen, then perhaps you should have run for the office yourself.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I would ask to you to remember, Chancellor, that I am a Prince. I query, I express concern: I do not "squabble".

There is much in your plans that I agree with - constructing financial buildings and using militia as city garrisons, for example. It was partly because I had confidence in your ability to prudently manage the creation of Household Armies that I was happy to support your election as Chancellor. But I would still argue for giving primacy to upgrading our castles above all other investments.

It is not a matter of wishing to pour the Imperial treasury into Staufen. Yes, upgrading our castles will be expensive and yes it will consume a lot of the Imperial treasury. But nonetheless it should be prioritised. I repeat: investment in upgrading Staufen is of no particular benefit or concern to Swabians compared to other Germans. A fortress and the troops it can generate are Imperial assets. I would argue for prioritising the construction of a fortress whether it were Innsbruck or Hamburg that stood ready to upgade.

Surely, it is not "minutia" whether we have infantry capable of matching the swordsmen of Denmark or the crossbowmen of Italy? You would have our knights stand idly by on horseback for lack of training while mere spearmen clamber over our enemies' walls? You would have our archers stand in the open while our enemies take cover behind large pavisses? If you do not regard these matters as a priority, then perhaps I shall have to rethink my natural aversion to "squabbling".

[FactionHeir]

Chancellor, I suggest that you only raise militia to the extent they can be supported at cost to the city alone. Any militia above that limit would be excessive and can be replaced by cheaper peasantry.

[TinCow]

*Mandorf nods in agreement.*

I completely agree with the Fifth Elector of Swabia. I must say that the question of the militias is most frustratingly complex. We will reap immediate financial benefits from having militias be supported by the towns themselves, but the cost of recruiting them must come from the Imperial treasury. Accordingly, the militia issue cannot be addressed this year, though hopefully next year I will be able to begin on it.

Furthermore, the towns cannot be left defenseless while the militia are recruited. In Austria in particular this means that the professional regiments stationed there cannot be removed or otherwise replaced until the Austrian Household Army is assembled. I would sincerely love to be able to simply replace all town garrisons with full complements of militia this very week. Unfortunately, it appears the actual process may take several years before it can be completed everywhere. I swear that it shall be completed as quickly as is possible without risking the security of any House. If the end result is tardy, then I will certainly accept the blame for the situation.

I will say that I have already ordered two regiments of unarmed peasants to be disbanded. Heavens only know where they came from, but they would not make any difference in a battle and were draining 200 florins per year from the treasury.

[nazgul3]

Bavarian Elector stands

We should definatly build our fortresses when they are presented and build economy to the cities who are lacking behind in money. With the bigger cities we should concentrate on public order and public health. Our castles are not ment to be making money they are there to advance our troops. The more advanced our troops are the easier it is for the Reich to overcome our enemies.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I must say that I completely agree with Prinz Henry (sotto voce: for once) about the lack of even one building in the queue being built. Back in my Chancellorship I found the funds to obey most queues and still double the Reich's size.

It seems as if your financial calculations about there being money left over to build after the House Armies have been created have already been proven incorrect, since apparently not even a 600 florin land clearance can be built.

[ArchdukeEvan]

it has not been mentioned yet i belive so let us think of this to...

stands to speak

if we are going to argue over money should we not take into accont the yearly cost of these troops?

the knights we train will be expensive... very expensive... and dispersing peasents... even 200 of them... will not pay for the formation of Armored Sword Regiments... and if we have to support the horses as well... then it is almost twice as expensive... also if we upgrade Staufen then knights can only be used in the area closest to there... because currently there will be no other places to train and retrian them...

so i come to theis... i am not agianst upgrading the castle to a fortress... but can we really get enough use out of these few knights we train there when 2 groups of Spears can fight the same... instead of relying on brute-force we can use tactics... as we have done before... to defeat the enemy

that is all

sits

[TinCow]

Gentlemen, please, this is not a long-term crisis by any means. The shortage of monies is likely to be confined to this year alone. Next year will see increased profits across the board and construction is expected to resume in many settlements even after further recruitments have been made. The siege of Florence will surely be broken by the Kaiser next year, bringing still more monies into our coffers, and I fully expect the castle at Magdeburg and the city of Venice to fall to our forces in the near future. In short, Electors, there is not a crisis in the Treasury. We have fallen short this year due to poor harvests and other factors such as the extremely high cost of the fortress at Staufen.

We are more than capable of sustaining the Household Armies, the Imperial Armies, and the building programs of most settlements around the Reich. I have not even completed my first year as Chancellor yet and you are already predicting doom and gloom, despite the fact that the situation has not changed one bit from when we had the election and I am doing exactly what I said I would during my campaign.

My good Electors, you simply must give it some time to work. I promise that you will see positive results in a very short period of time. Surely one single year without new construtions, other than the fortress at Staufen, will not cause the downfall of our Empire.

[ArchdukeEvan]

stands

Honored Chanceler

Surely one single year without new construtions, other than the fortress at Staufen, will not cause the downfall of our Empire.

well i never said it would... but i will trust that your confidance is well founded in your reports?... because once we have lost the money... it maybe awhile before we gain it back... and though the upgrading of the fortress is important... it can not help the entire reich... knights trained there arent in line to head for Poland... but extra cash can...

sits agian

[TevashSzat]

Fouth Elector of Swabia stands

People, you must realize that military infrastructure is not something you can raise up in a day. It will take many years for the fortress to be built as well as suitable training grounds for our troops. Should we leave our western border with weak infrastructure, should France attack, we will have to spend many years fighting as a disadvantage as we try to build the infrastructure that could have been built years ago.

[TevashSzat]

Fourth Elector of Swabia rushes in

The most excellent Maximillion has gravenly informed us that the French have attacked. Our situation is most pitiful with large French armies besiegeing our pathetically defended cities. Now everyone must agreee that it is of upmost importance to focus on improving the military condition of our western front seeing as how our eastern front against the Polish is more or less stable with no major defeats or losses anytime really soon; the Italian situation is shaky with the upcoming large battle against the Milanese, but we most now divert more funds and forces against the treacherous French immedietely

[Stuperman]

*the 6th elector of Bavaria remains sitting, but speaks loud enough for everyone to hear, dripping with sarcasim he says*

hhhmmm....war with the French, pitty we wasted all that money on troops.

I'd much prefer to be cowering behind some newly constructed walls.

*a wry smile creeps over his face as he takes anothr drink of his beer*

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Sigismund has a large army that should be able to deal with the French, for as we all know Germans are much better fighters.

With any luck the remnants of the large Milanese army I have just defeated will make its way to Marseille and siege it - three way war. Ah well, I suppose there's no harm in praying.

[Warluster]

Jobst von Salza stands

i knew the French would attack! I knew it!

Where did they attack!? Where did they attck!? I hope it isn't Dijon, or I will string them!

I volunteer to lead a attack against the Frecnh!

Jobst von Salza sits, fretting they may be attacking his precious Castyle of Dijon

[Ignoramus]

A page hands Sigismund der Furchtlose a a scroll. After briefly glancing at its contents, Sigismund smiled as he rose.

"Mein Chancellor, it appears that we are currently only making a paltry 500 florins every two years(one turn). Currently, we only have 72 florins. Please tell me how we are to build anything in this bankrupt Reich? We are on the brink of economic collapse, and we are not being wise."

I am sure that mein fellow Swabians would agree."

Sigismund der Furchtlose glances at the Swabian electors as he resumes his seat.

[Stuperman]

*the 6th elector of Bavaira stands*

The honourable Sigismund der Furchtlose has a point, perhaps our retaliation towards the French should focous on Marseille, the florins streaming in from such a large trading center would surely help aleviate some of the financial burden Chancellor Maximillian Mandorf's bold plan has caused in the short term.

[Warluster]

Jobst von Salza stands again, and nods towards Sigismund der Furchtlose

yes,yes,yes.

I agree there Sigismund, and the 6th Elector of Bavaria's Plan seems fine, but of course comes the way of getting the money to attack and stuff.

So why don't we pluch a few trade Rights? That we surely help us, if we send off about 5 diplomats world wide, not only can we ask for trade rights, we can gain allies, more soldiers, promises and spread our influence?

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopold had withdrawn from the Diet after the Election and had just recently returned to the chambers. His departure for Vienna was approaching but he wanted to attend the Diet before he left.


My fellow Electors!

What are these words of nit-picking and squabbling I'm hearing in this Assembly?
The House of Swabia seems to be particulary fussed by the new Chancellor's actions. You have supported him with all your votes, so maybe it's time you stuck up and actually support your choice, not only by vote, but also by your actions within this body? Not more than one year has passed and already the heart of the Reich has been cleansed of rebels and two major victories were won against our foes and still you find the time to complain? May I remind you that not one single building has been constructed in Vienna during the last Chancellors half-term? I don't even want to begin speaking about the military support I recieved from the rest of the Reich or our Chancellor. Meager Militia was all I had to deal with the Milanese threat.

Finally Chancellor Mandorf is undertaking actions to remedy this situation, so that finally our Eastern borders can have the same attention, Northern Italy and the western border had in recent time. All you can do is complain about the state of your oh so mighty castle, which is indeed upgraded to a fortress as we speak. Your Ducal Army under Sigismund command is ready to take your orders, so I understand why you don't see any need for additional troops. Other Houses have to make do with Militia though and for them recruitment is a top priority and I'm glad Chancellor Mandorf thinks along the same lines.
What good is a fortress if we don't have the men to properly defend it? The Reich needs soldiers, professional soldiers! This will indeed cause a short-term lack of florins but it is necessary. The attacks we had during the last Chancellors term have shown us how vunerable we are. We need to be ready to answer every threat that our enemies could pose toward us! We can only do this with soldiers, not with buildings or Florins. I fully support
Mandorf in his recent decisions and believe that he does the best job possible at this moment!

I would also like to remind anyone here who suggests offensive actions against the French that this would directly violate Edict 5.12, which calls for a defensive stance towards our foolish French neighbours.

The Duke returns to his seat.

[TinCow]

*Mandorf shakes his head angrily.*

500 florins? Count der Stolze, I suggest you have some firm words with your scribes. Next year the Reich Treasury will receive nearly 8,500 florins to fund future expenditures. That is more than we received this year, and need I remind you this year's profits included a signficant gift from the Russians? The Reich is becoming profitable, it is not going bankrupt.

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Furchtlose smiles as he rises to reply.

Mein dear Mandorf, it is true that the Reich will receive nearly 8,500 florins next year. Yet, 8,000 of those are required for the payment of our soldiers, our clergy, and our fleets. We can not construct much with 500 florins.

Sigismund resumes his seat.

[TinCow]

Again, I must state that you are misinformed Count der Stolze. I understand that the wording of the standard treasury report can be confusing, but the entry titled "profit" does not reflect where the treasury will stand next year. I assure you, at the beginning of the year we will have approximately 8,500 florins to spend on the various needs of the Reich. The "profit" line merely indicates how much more we will be receiving next year than we did at the beginning of this year. We will be making 500 florins more next year than this year, for a total income of approximately 8,500 florins.