Are Italian Militia really this good?

[Didz]

I could not help noticing that even after upgrading Ragusa castle with a Drill Square the Sergeant Spearmen and Armoured Sergeants it can now train are not as good as the Militia units my cities can train.

e.g.
Sergeant Spearmen A7 D10 v Italian Militia A7 D10
Armoured Sergeants A7 D14 v Italian Militia Spearmen A8 D14

Seems a bit pointless ugrading your castles infantry if this is correct.

[HoreTore]

That's true, italian milita are superior to castle spearmen, there is no reason to have them except as a rushed garrison to fight a surprise attack...

The venetian heavy infantry is rather good though, so it is worth it to build those barracks...

But when playing as venice/milan, you should train your troops in your cities. Castles are only useful as defence structures and early cavalry(mailed knights), really. When you have a huge city, you can train good spearmen, swordsmen, pavise crossbows AND heavy cavalry from your cities, which is more than enough. And of course, in the late game, you get musketeers and pikes...

You do get a couple of nice units from castles, like archers, but those should be considered secondary troops, as you get nice troops AND money from your cities. You can also get the horse breeders guild in a city...

[Quickening]

Hmm. Do we reckon this is intentional or just poor game balancing?

[Lusted]

I think its intentional for the Italian nations to make cities more appealing for them.

[Carl]

Your stats for Italian units are out.

Actual stats are:

Italian Militia: A:7 D:9 but they don't have schiltrom, only have Light_Spears (less effective than full spears), and only Spear_Bonus_4 rather than 8.

Italian Spear Militia: A:7 D13

Sergeant Spearmen: A:7 D:9

Armored Sergeants: A:7 D:14

[Didz]

My figures were copied directly from the units stats, but are probably affectly by the fact that all my units are wearing leather armour now.

[Carl]

My figures were copied directly from the units stats, but are probably affectly by the fact that all my units are wearing leather armour now.

that explains it, if the Sergeant Spearmen/Armored Sergeants didn't have their armour upgrade and the Militia spears (both types), did then it would explain the diffrances.

Bear in mind though that the diffrances between italian militia and Sergeant Spearmen are considrable. Whilst Italian Militia may be much better against infantry, (no penalties against infantry for Light_Spears), they will also be MUCH more vulnrable to Cav. Standered Spear Militia would easilly outperform them at that, and Sergeant Spearmen would make them look like a joke.

[Didz]

I don't train Italian Militia for precisely that reason.

I noticed that they are far less resilient when I've met them in the Milanese Armies I've fought and so I stick to the Italian Spearmen Militia.

[Carl]

I noticed that they are far less resilient when I've met them in the Milanese Armies I've fought and so I stick to the Italian Spearmen Militia.

no, no, no, no. With a Light Spear Italian Spear militia are much more capable against other spears, Italian Spear Militia could easily LOSE to ordinary Italian militia as the ISM have penalties vs. other infantry that the IM don't have.

[Didz]

I can't be bothered with that sort of detail. The chances of matching Italian Militia to Italian Spear Militia in a melee are too remote for me to consider it important.

I use Italian Spear Militia to stop enemy cavalry charges, thats what they are there for in my army, the Italian Militia I cut down with my crossbowmen at a distance. On the rare occassions when they do get to grips with my main battle line I merely wheel my own cavalry round on their flanks and chew them up.

So, the only time I really need infantry killers is when taking a city wall and when that is needed I usually have plenty of men to spare so I can afford to lose a few extra due to a poor weapon match. More importantly, after I've taken the walls I need Italian Spearmen to cover my crossbowmen against cavalry during the march on the city centre.

So, overall I don't rate the Italian Militia as worth training, but thats mainly because of the tactic's I use.

[pike master]

im gonna have to test that. i always thought town militia or italian militia were inferior to spear militian units.

[Carl]

im gonna have to test that. i always thought town militia or italian militia were inferior to spear militian units.

nope, Spear Militia/ISM represent your early anti-Cav units whilst Town Militia/IM represent an early S & S unit which just happens to have some anti-Cav bonuses.

@Didz: I'd love to know how your managing to wipe them out with Crossbows so much. unless you outnumber the enemy by an improbable margin you shouldn't have a hope of more than slowing them down a Little with Crossbows.

On the other hand the fact that the AI lets you flank like it does is simply the poor AI anti-flanking ability talking. For some reason CA seems to think everyone will use the same tactics given in the Tutorial of charging head on into the enemy with your Cav after peppering them with missiles, then throwing your infantry in whilst pulling the Cav out. Frankly it's the most stupid thing you could possibly do. and the AI assumes thats what you will do.

And trust me, your probably taking twice as many losses on the walls as you should be if you use ISM in the place of IM.

[Foz]

nope, Spear Militia/ISM represent your early anti-Cav units whilst Town Militia/IM represent an early S & S unit which just happens to have some anti-Cav bonuses.

I never really thought of it like that, but it's a very good way to put it. It's too easy to think of them as nearly identical since the town militia have spears like the standard spear units do. I guess it's an unfortunate design oversight. It'd be nice to see them with crappy short swords or something... just so it was more obvious that they aren't supposed to be anti-cavalry and bad vs. infantry like spears.

[Didz]

@Didz: I'd love to know how your managing to wipe them out with Crossbows so much. unless you outnumber the enemy by an improbable margin you shouldn't have a hope of more than slowing them down a Little with Crossbows.

I wouldn't claim to be wiping them out with crossbows but I reckon one mercenary crossbow unit (120 Crossbowmen) if allowed to empty its quarrel boxes unhindered into the face of the enemy will kill close to 200-250 before they run out. Obviously this becomes much higher if the enemy obligingly form up in a deep formation so that even the overshots claim casualties. In my last battle the Milanese formed up in three battle lines militia infantry in front, cavalry behind and their generals unit to the rear. By the time my crossbows had finished their central infantry units had practically ceased to exist their cavalry were at half strength and their general was dead.

Typically, I have around five mercenary crosswbow units in one of my field armies and usually slightly less than that in garrison because of the need to keep several slots for archers, and of course spearmen. I rarely take more than two cavalry units plus the generals bodyguard as I find them too fragile and unreliable.

I can usually inflict well over 50% casualties on the opposing army if it sits there and does nothing, as in the case of the Mongols beseiging one of my cities. If they decide not to sit there and try and close with the crossbowmen then I simply kite them into my main battleline and let my spearmen deal with them, and if they fall back again I simply advance my crossbowmen and continue the slaughter. Unless my battleline needs support, the cavalry only get into action when they finally break and run for the hills, then its just a fox hunt to try and cut as many down as I can before they escape.

Its more or less my standard tactic and it usually works perfectly unless the enemy has horse archers and the ground is open country in which case we get into Mutually assured Destruction mode and I have to replenish huge losses in crossbowmen afterwards.

[Lorenzo_H]

Italian Militia being so potent are one of the Bonuses that the Italian factions get.

[Carl]

@Didz: Have you got patch 1.1 because it's VERY rare non-rebels will sit their at all after the patch, they'll normally charge your battle line and force you to beat them in melee. In those situations, if the enemy is mostly ISM or other high end spears then I can guarantee that that ordinary IM would cut your losses tremendously.

Post patch your Crossbows would probably get 2-3 volleys and not a single shot afterwards till the enemy has routed.

[Didz]

Yep! downlaoded it while back as a solution to the capital recalculation bug.

I suppose the other factor would be difficulty level, I think I'm playing on Moderate atm. I certainly find that the enemy dither about quite a bit and I frequently manage to empty all my quivers and bolt boxes into them. Even if they do attack they don't make much of a dent in a two deep battle line of spearmen on Hold Ground.

BTW: I thought I'd try and run some tests to confirm the casualties inflicted by Mercenary Crossbowmen but I couldn't work out how to select the composition of the CPU team, let alone how to get its army to stand still while I shot at it.

[HoreTore]

@Didz: Have you got patch 1.1 because it's VERY rare non-rebels will sit their at all after the patch, they'll normally charge your battle line and force you to beat them in melee. In those situations, if the enemy is mostly ISM or other high end spears then I can guarantee that that ordinary IM would cut your losses tremendously.

Post patch your Crossbows would probably get 2-3 volleys and not a single shot afterwards till the enemy has routed.

Nah, I see it a lot of times. I've simply stopped shooting down the enemy army however, as it makes a pretty dull game.. I usually shoot down around 20% of the army before charging in now.

[FactionHeir]

@Didz: Have you got patch 1.1 because it's VERY rare non-rebels will sit their at all after the patch, they'll normally charge your battle line and force you to beat them in melee. In those situations, if the enemy is mostly ISM or other high end spears then I can guarantee that that ordinary IM would cut your losses tremendously.

Post patch your Crossbows would probably get 2-3 volleys and not a single shot afterwards till the enemy has routed.

1.1 AI always is passive standing around if outnumbered.

[Slaists]

no, no, no, no. With a Light Spear Italian Spear militia are much more capable against other spears, Italian Spear Militia could easily LOSE to ordinary Italian militia as the ISM have penalties vs. other infantry that the IM don't have.

interesting. but is this really true? italian milita and italian spear militia both use spears... why would one spear unit have bonuses against another spear unit? i could see that a sword unit would have such a bonus, but italian militia do not use swords.

[Slaists]

@Didz: Have you got patch 1.1 because it's VERY rare non-rebels will sit their at all after the patch, they'll normally charge your battle line and force you to beat them in melee. In those situations, if the enemy is mostly ISM or other high end spears then I can guarantee that that ordinary IM would cut your losses tremendously.

Post patch your Crossbows would probably get 2-3 volleys and not a single shot afterwards till the enemy has routed.

well, the post-patch 1.1 AI is even easier than pre-patch. now, the player can play most offensive battles as defensive ones since it is almost guaranteed, the enemy will charge rather than takin up an advantageous defensive position.

[Gingivitis]

interesting. but is this really true? italian milita and italian spear militia both use spears... why would one spear unit have bonuses against another spear unit? i could see that a sword unit would have such a bonus, but italian militia do not use swords.

If you look at the All Units - All stats guide in the guides section it shows Italian Militia have "light_spear" as weapons and Italian Spear Militia has "spear" as weapons. Spear is listed as "spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry" where as there's no citation noting a penalty for light spears against infantry.

[Slaists]

If you look at the All Units - All stats guide in the guides section it shows Italian Militia have "light_spear" as weapons and Italian Spear Militia has "spear" as weapons. Spear is listed as "spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry" where as there's no citation noting a penalty for light spears against infantry.

okies. will test this. in my casual experience italian militia are much less hardy than italian spear militia against all kinds of opponents. they are much more likely to rout if charged by other spears, swords or cavalry.

[Carl]

okies. will test this. in my casual experience Italian militia are much less hardy than Italian spear militia against all kinds of opponents. they are much more likely to rout if charged by other spears, swords or cavalry.

It DEFINITELY works with ordinary Town Militia vs. Ordinary Spear Militia, so it should work between ISM and IM, it just won't be quite as obvious as ISM do have a defense advantage over IM, unlike TM vs. SM.

[pike master]

my testing proved inconclusive.this was done with an equal number of battles with town militia and spear militia swapped around so the human player used both at different times.

human player always won regardless of whether my unit was town militia or spear militia and i used no commands other than the one to tell them to engage one click.