GC Hotseat 2. Should we use a light mod?

[Zim]

Hello. FactionHeir has a light mod prepared for the hotseat game. It would only require me to download a couple files since the save will remember" the changes after that. From my understanding, it gives bonuses to any faction that becomes ai (i.e., a player drops out and no replacement is found), shortens the period between the Mongol and Timurid invasions, and adds a script to make them less likely to sit there and do nothing.

With all factions filled and at least two players expressing worry about using any mod, I thought it should go to vote.

[Privateerkev]

Here is what I posted in the other thread:

I vote No.

Why should we "even out" the King's Purse and starting florins? The factions aren't laid out fair anyways but they are not supposed to be fair. We all new what we were getting into.

The settlement numbers, unit stats, resource allotment, ect... are not fair so why should the money be?

[Zim]

Yeah, I didn't know King's Purses and such were changed for player factions as well.

[Privateerkev]

Yeah, I didn't know King's Purses and such were changed for player factions as well.

This is my complaint about FH. He first lays out how his mods only do one or two things. But then you find out they really do far more than we first thought. We have run into this with the KotRFixes as well.

[Zim]

He mentioned King's purses to me, but in the context of giving larger ones to AI factions. Since he was using a command from Kingdoms to check if factions were AI, I assumed only they would have them changed.

Any way, if enough people say no, I'll just go ahead and start a vanilla game.

[FactionHeir]

Yeah, I didn't know King's Purses and such were changed for player factions as well.

Its easier to script the AI money scripts that way without having to go back each time and add them up manually. Besides, a game where everyone starts off somewhat equal IMO is a more fun game compared to one, where one bunch of players gets +2500 free a turn while another bunch of players only get +1000 a turn and all of them are central european.

The changes were posted in the "OOC" thread of this MPC2 btw.
Oh, and I vote yes obviously, as there will come a time when players drop out and a faction needs to be taken over by the AI. In those cases you wouldn't want that faction to be easy pickings and train militia hordes only, but simulate a human players till being behind that faction.
In addition, if that faction can eventually be filled again, that player won't be at a huge disadvantage.

The change to the AI behavior also means that the AI will spam less artillery at you and train more high quality units. It will also generate larger stacks to attack you with overall rather than send their forces piecemeal. In addition, they'll be focussing on building the blacksmith line too, so battles aren't a piece of cake.

[Privateerkev]

Its easier to script the AI money scripts that way without having to go back each time and add them up manually. Besides, a game where everyone starts off somewhat equal IMO is a more fun game compared to one, where one bunch of players gets +2500 free a turn while another bunch of players only get +1000 a turn.

Again, you are pushing off what you believe to be more fun on the rest of us. What if we wouldn't find it more fun? Did you bother to think of that? Did you think to ask? Do you care?

You have consistently pushed your mods into games based on your vision of the game and what it should do. But not everyone shares your vision. As a courtesy, you could just inform us fully on what your mods do. But you don't. If I hadn't pushed, most people wouldn't even know what your mod in this game does.

There is more than 1 person playing this game FH...

[gibsonsg91921]

My only issue with this is the balancing of King's Purses. If you pick a harder faction, thats ur fault.

[FactionHeir]

Again, you are pushing off what you believe to be more fun on the rest of us. What if we wouldn't find it more fun? Did you bother to think of that? Did you think to ask? Do you care?

You have consistently pushed your mods into games based on your vision of the game and what it should do. But not everyone shares your vision. As a courtesy, you could just inform us fully on what your mods do. But you don't. If I hadn't pushed, most people wouldn't even know what your mod in this game does.

There is more than 1 person playing this game FH...

And I think you really need to put your head in a bucket of cold water. You having a bad week RL doesn't mean you have to let it out on people you cannot see.

My only issue with this is the balancing of King's Purses. If you pick a harder faction, thats ur fault.

Point taken. If there is enough demand I can revert to normal king's purses.

[Privateerkev]

And I think you really need to put your head in a bucket of cold water. You having a bad week RL doesn't mean you have to let it out on people you cannot see.

Your dodging the issue. You consistently try to push on the gaming community your mods without informing people all that those mods do. Have more respect for us.

[FactionHeir]

Where did I dodge the issue? I posted clearly every detail of the changes and am actively discussing them and open to change.

From my perspective, it seems to be you who is more intent of causing a ruckus against my person rather than actual discussion of how/if the changes need to be modified.

[Privateerkev]

Where did I dodge the issue? I posted clearly every detail of the changes and am actively discussing them and open to change.

From my perspective, it seems to be you who is more intent of causing a ruckus against my person rather than actual discussion of how/if the changes need to be modified.

You have only posted details about the mod after people brought it up. You have not been forthcoming from the beginning.

I have already made my stance clear on whether the changes need to be made in my "no" vote.

Now I am discussing how you treat members of the Throne Room. You treat us like we aren't very bright and you know what is best for us.

[FactionHeir]

Let's see.
First I ask the GM what he thinks about the fixes and detail a plan to him.
Then I make the fixes and provide them.
Then players ask what they do after the GM announces them and I post what they generally do.
Then players want to know further details and I give those. All within a reasonable time span without refusing to give the info in the first place.

So I don't see what your point is.
And if you want to discuss my person, you probably want to do this via PM if you want to steer clear of breaking forum rules.

[Ferret]

I vote no, what is wrong with vanilla.

[Privateerkev]

First I ask the GM what he thinks about the fixes and detail a plan to him.

Zim told me he didn't fully know what your mod did. You should have explained it to him in detail from the beginning.

Then players ask what they do after the GM announces them and I post what they generally do.

You left out the King's Purse thing in the beginning. Kind of a major change to omit...

Then players want to know further details and I give those. All within a reasonable time span without refusing to give the info in the first place.

No, we don't find out the details until the game is about to be started in a couple of hours. This is not enough time for players to make an informed decision if they want to play in a game that you modded.

And if you want to discuss my person, you probably want to do this via PM if you want to steer clear of breaking forum rules.

Yes, I am discussing how you treat us. Feel free to tell a Mod.

[FactionHeir]

What I presented Zim was better AI and increasing AI king's purse.
As my first model of recreating kingdoms's king's purse for M2TW was based on the kingdoms file, I had to ensure that all king's purses were equal or otherwise the checks would fail.
Once I got past that stage, I noticed that some of those scripting commands seem to be exclusive to kingdoms and M2TW doesn't recognize them so I ahd to go back and change every entry several times to ensure that it works. By that time it would be a lot of work to then go back and change all purses back to original and then adjust the added purses again. So this was more or less a byproduct which I didn't deem very major and could be explained.
Now, giving AI money basically means king's purse. Those are synonymous in the script.

I didn't say you found out the details days before the game started. I said you found the details from me within minutes or hours from when you asked. That is reasonable given the time of season and that this is an internet forum.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I vote "no" in the interests of "geddonwidit!"

[Privateerkev]

What I presented Zim was better AI and increasing AI king's purse.
As my first model of recreating kingdoms's king's purse for M2TW was based on the kingdoms file, I had to ensure that all king's purses were equal or otherwise the checks would fail.
Once I got past that stage, I noticed that some of those scripting commands seem to be exclusive to kingdoms and M2TW doesn't recognize them so I ahd to go back and change every entry several times to ensure that it works. By that time it would be a lot of work to then go back and change all purses back to original and then adjust the added purses again. So this was more or less a byproduct which I didn't deem very major and could be explained.
Now, giving AI money basically means king's purse. Those are synonymous in the script.

I didn't say you found out the details days before the game started. I said you found the details from me within minutes or hours from when you asked. That is reasonable given the time of season and that this is an internet forum.

No, we deserve to know well ahead of time if you are changing the economy of every single faction.

This was not discovered until quite recently. And the GM was not fully aware of that facet of your mod.

And again, you did this based on your opinion of what is "fun". You didn't bother to ask us what we would think is "fun". Suddenly, your "fun" has more weight because you can mod the game and get it implemented. Not fair...

[gibsonsg91921]

I vote "no" in the interests of "geddonwidit!"

[Ferret]

well the debate has reached a standstill and I tink we should let the vote speak for itself, Zim 1 player has voted yes and 4 have voted no, what is your decision your greatness?

[Csargo]

Vote:I don't care

[Cecil XIX]

I will be voting no, unless FH copies the new and/or changed portions of the affected files and posts them here. We are quite capable of understanding them.

[gibsonsg91921]

Guys, I don't want this to be a huge fight.



Hug emoticon and make up, ok? FH had no ulterior motives and isn't trying to push his mods on anyone, he's just trying to help. PK is right, we do have a right to know exactly what's happening. Personally, I think we don't need mods - vanilla is a very fun game. But we shouldn't hate each other for it, okay?

[Zim]

Ok, since virtually everyone is saying no, I'm going to start the game in a bit with no mods. Feel free to argue more about it, but try to keep it to thi thread.

[FactionHeir]

Quick copy/paste job:

Added code

;-- AI cash 
        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType england
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money england 5000
			
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType france
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money france 5000
			
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType hre
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money hre 5000
			
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType spain
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money spain 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType venice
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money venice 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType byzantium
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money byzantium 7000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType hungary
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money hungary 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType scotland
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money scotland 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType denmark
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money denmark 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType poland
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money poland 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType russia
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money russia 5500
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType milan
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money milan 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType portugal
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money portugal 5000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType moors
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money moors 6000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType egypt
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money egypt 6000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType turks
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money turks 6000
	
	end_monitor

        monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType sicily
		and not FactionIsLocal
		and I_TurnNumber > 5

			console_command add_money sicily 5000
	
	end_monitor

All balanced smith changed to the below. Removed the king's purse changes from factions btw.

faction	england, craftsman henry
faction	france, craftsman napoleon
faction	hre, craftsman stalin
faction	spain, craftsman napoleon
faction	venice, trader stalin
faction	sicily, trader napoleon
faction	milan, trader mao
faction	scotland, sailor stalin
faction	byzantium, craftsman henry
faction	russia, trader henry
faction	moors, craftsman stalin
faction	turks, trader henry
faction	egypt, craftsman genghis
faction	denmark, trader stalin
faction	portugal, trader henry
faction	poland, craftsman henry
faction	hungary, craftsman stalin
faction	papal_states, craftsman henry
faction	aztecs, balanced stalin
faction	mongols, craftsman henry
faction	timurids, craftsman henry
faction	slave, craftsman stalin

Changed spawn intervals from their old values to

date	4 8

[Ramses II CP]

I abstain as well, I don't think it will appreciably change the game to have it or not have it.

I also want to say, to FH and Kev, that a 'behavior' discussion is best moved to PMs. Much easier to reach an understanding in private. And remember that English isn't FH's first language so some of the nuances and cues we use to assuage each other about our motives might not be present or easily comprehensible. I didn't ascribe any ill intent to FH's mod, it seemed to me he was presenting an option that he thought would move the game towards a balance and it was up to us to accept it or decline.

[Privateerkev]

I abstain as well, I don't think it will appreciably change the game to have it or not have it.

I also want to say, to FH and Kev, that a 'behavior' discussion is best moved to PMs. Much easier to reach an understanding in private. And remember that English isn't FH's first language so some of the nuances and cues we use to assuage each other about our motives might not be present or easily comprehensible. I didn't ascribe any ill intent to FH's mod, it seemed to me he was presenting an option that he thought would move the game towards a balance and it was up to us to accept it or decline.

Good point and PM has been sent.

As for English being a second language to some on here, everyone seems to speak it so well that I forget that point. I do come from the assumption that everyone is a native English speaker (I swear you guys have it down that good), and I don't think about nuances and such being missed.

I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.

[Cecil XIX]

With the majority of votes being 'no', I hope the issue is resolved.

There's been enough tension in-game already, I don't want to see it spilling out like this.

EDIT: Now that I look at the code, I think it's all right. Still, I'm not anticipating many vacancies.

[_Tristan_]

I know this has all been decided already but I would have voted no...

The game balances itself if all factions are human-controlled...

I agree some are harder than others but you hadn't a gun to your head when choosing... and probably had some good reason for choosing them...

Most of us aren't newbies and perfectly know what we are getting into so we know what we'll have to make do with....

So I can't see the need for any modding...