Latest update on 1.2 patch from Sega/CA

[Durallan]

I agree with your overall sentiment that in the larger scope of life this game is really trivial, and that the gripes here are mostly from hardcore players, on that I concede. However comments like the one about the car brakes are very telling and apart of the larger problem.

Like it or not your rationalizing the fact that the game was infact released with problems. By your own example, what would you do if you had recieved the car like that? List the problem on a bug forum and link your fix in your signature?





Sarcasm lessens your position considerably. No one has suggested that this has a major impact on the world as a whole, but since this is a fan site for the game critisism here is appropriate. Minimalizing the valid arguments on an appropriate site do little to validate your own position, IMHO.



We realise this.



again no one is suggesting that this is the end of the world. This is a fansite of the totalwar series and an appropriate place to discuss the total war games and thier impact on the forum members who chose to participate.

Continual comparissons to life events of larger scopes underlines the weakness of your argument. Of course this dosent compare to but the Org isnt dedicated to those realities now is it?

This thread is more about the actual patch and its upcomingness than to continually complain about the state the game was released in yadda yadda yadda, if someone could make a topic like that and then sticky so everyone can complain rant and other things in it, it would be appreciated.

and yes I know everyone has a right to be angry and annoyed but I'm more interested in news of the patch, and people keep complaining about the patch, the delays and the bugginess of the game which this post isn't for, no I'm not trying to self moderate but Its just wearing a little thin, we know yer annoyed and you have eeeeevery right in the world to be annoyed at the state of the game, but you don't need to keep telling us. Which is why a topic where you can all get aggro to your hearts content would be great, because it would unclutter this post and then I could actually read for news on the update (no offense to anyone ok? :))

[Odin]

This thread is more about the actual patch and its upcomingness than to continually complain about the state the game was released in yadda yadda yadda, if someone could make a topic like that and then sticky so everyone can complain rant and other things in it, it would be appreciated.

Since you quoted me I will repsond in kind.

There is a PM feature and reporting feature you can use Durallan to ask for this more formally. The mods will reply to you, and if they deem the post innappropriate will correct it in thier own manner via PM or a posted remark as to how to proceed further, which smart forum members will abide.

You also have the option of not reading posts by simply moving to the next one that is relevant to your desire. Because you percieve a thread to be "more about" something dosent mean that the other posts arent relevant or valid.

Basically, no one is forcing you to read these posts Durallan, you choose to.

[Durallan]

Since you quoted me I will repsond in kind.

There is a PM feature and reporting feature you can use Durallan to ask for this more formally. The mods will reply to you, and if they deem the post innappropriate will correct it in thier own manner via PM or a posted remark as to how to proceed further, which smart forum members will abide.

You also have the option of not reading posts by simply moving to the next one that is relevant to your desire. Because you percieve a thread to be "more about" something dosent mean that the other posts arent relevant or valid.

Basically, no one is forcing you to read these posts Durallan, you choose to.

This is relevant to my desire, Topic Title: Latest update on 1.2 patch from Sega/CA

Yes I can ask for it more formally but I thought a nice unformal post would be better. I don't just mean you either I mean alot of people ahve been posting about the delays etc, anyway Yes one does have he option of not reading posts but seeing they go in a logical progression from the top of the page to the bottom you normally read them all....

I didn't say they wern't relevant or valid I just think a seperate post where you can express your frustrations to your hearts content would be more appropriate and also would be in one location so instead of telling SEGA/CA to look at all these seperate pages in topics, you can just tell them to look at the one topic. (if anyone is actually going to do so)

Oh and thanks for being so polite to me Odin.

EDIT:

Just to remind everyone, we're here to discuss the patch, not our opinions of CA's business practices

[FactionHeir]

Since this topic is now for all patch 1.2 discussion I'll mention this. If the Pope asks you to cease hostilities you can no longer continue to hold an enemy under siege. You will be excommunicated. As I just found out the hard way

Still, thats a good change.

Was like that in 1.1 already. :p

Any news on the other two tests I was asking about? I mean you are bound to have killed at least 1 enemy army so far right? (for the display thing)

As for the experience bonus you got the buildings yet? :D

[Durallan]

Hey FactionHeir what were the other tests you wanted done?

EDIT: (instead of making ANOTHER post :P ;) )

I'm not too sure Sinan, thats what I thought too! for some people it seems not?

[Shahed]

I thought it was'nt like that in 1.10. If you already have a city under siege, can't you just hold the siege and if it's over and you get the city, the Pope seems ok about it.

[Odin]

This is relevant to my desire, Topic Title: Latest update on 1.2 patch from Sega/CA

Yes I can ask for it more formally but I thought a nice unformal post would be better. I don't just mean you either I mean alot of people ahve been posting about the delays etc, anyway Yes one does have he option of not reading posts but seeing they go in a logical progression from the top of the page to the bottom you normally read them all....

I didn't say they wern't relevant or valid I just think a seperate post where you can express your frustrations to your hearts content would be more appropriate and also would be in one location so instead of telling SEGA/CA to look at all these seperate pages in topics, you can just tell them to look at the one topic. (if anyone is actually going to do so)

Oh and thanks for being so polite to me Odin.

EDIT:

So you are correct, I didnt see Sapi's original post. I dont know if the others did but I wont post any more on thier business practices in this thread.

Thanks for posting that, i truly did miss it.

[FactionHeir]

Hey FactionHeir what were the other tests you wanted done?

Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Did CA fix the retraining bug? I.e. having buildings that give global or local boni to experience of units trained but units come out green? Its not in the patch readme, but I'd rather ask to make sure before reporting it again for the buglist.
You can try to see if it happens by having a building (i.e. jousting lists or barracks) which gives experience boni (to cav and armoured sergeants respectively) and train said units. Instead of ending turn when training, save and reload. Do not reset the queue after loading. Now end turn and see if the units are green or not. (ie. available for retraining)

Could you also check for the text "Your Forces Melt Away" and "Enemy Army Routs" whether the correct commander's name is being displayed? In 1.1 at least its always the wrong commander's name.

That :)

[diotavelli]

Odin,

Thanks for your reply. A couple of points though:

1. Yes, I'm rationalising the fact that the game was released with problems. I'm doing so because a) it's only a game and b) most new products in the world are released imperfect. I know this because I've project-managed a few releases myself and I've bought new houses and cars before.

2. If I bought a car with faulty brakes, I'd take it back to the showroom and demand it were fixed or replaced because it would kill me otherwise. That would be a serious problem (IMO, at least). However, when I bought a new house that had some problems, I fixed them myself and got on with my life. I could have called the builders/developers and demanded the work be done and paid for me but I realised that would take longer and was unnecessary. The same applies with the game: provide your own fix or wait for the official one - it's no big deal.

3. I realise this is a fan site and that therefore it is an appropriate context for criticism - I never suggested otherwise. My point was that people seemed to lack perspective. Sure it's fair to criticise the game but to leap to conclusions about the way a company is run and about their attitude to their customers on the flimsiest of evidence is daft.

4. Apologies if my sarcasm upset you. I fail to see how it "lessens [my] position considerably" - my points are either valid or not but you're entitled to you opinion. I didn't attempt to minimalise (arguably) valid arguments but simply to demonstrate that the seriousness of those arguments were not of the magnitude some people seem to believe, IMO.

5. Who is the "we" who realise that CA don't care as much as you do? A royal 'we' or can you speak for all 19,500+ members of this forum?

6. You try to suggest that my argument is weak because I compare M2TW bug issues with major, real life issues - but that is my point, that is my argument. As I said above, I do not for one second believe that The Guild is not an appropriate place for discussions on this issue. I believe, however, that those discussions would be more efficacious if undertaken with greater perspective.

7. The .Org is not dedicated to CA's business practices or policy. Other people (who happen to share your overalll POV) have commented on these and you haven't seen the need to censure them. You have commented on the culture in which computer games are released these days and the role of gaming magazines; again, the .Org is not dedicated these either? That being the case, why should I not bring in other non-TW issues to the discussion? Because you disagree with my position?

My point remains the same: many people now feel the game is so bugged it should not have been released; I believe many of these people only feel this way because they've made aware of bugs they'd never have discovered themselves. Discussions of bugs and CA's response to them have been inclined to the hysterical. I suggested therefore that a little perspective would be useful.

We have no way of knowing if CA believed the game was bugged when they released it (so far as I'm aware - forgive me if I'm wrong) and no way of knowing if they could have released effective patches sooner than they did. Arguments to the contrary are plain wrong. Leaping from such arguments to condemnations of CA, the whole games industry or anything else are therefore without foundation.

[Dead_Like_Me]

hey guys i have just finished up reading the new preview on kingdoms in GS

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...&mode=previews

now in the second patch they are talking about the hotseat that will be included
in the expansion but according to it the hotseat is still planned to be out
with patch 1.2 which will make me very happy :D.
the thing that get me confused is the fact that in 3.4.07 they told it goes off
the patch and will feature only in kingdoms which caused me to be sad.
and the preview is from 13.4.07 that means today ...

so which is more reliable ? usually i would think CA site would be but it wasn't
updated for a long time and according to the forums sites the patch is still
planned for Thursday April 5.

help me out guys ... tell me that CA decided to make the right thing and put
the hotseat in original medieval 2 as well.

[Daveybaby]

@Whacker: I note you failed to choose either of the two scenarios, or to suggest any scenarios of your own, so i assume youre happy with the status quo. If not, what do you suggest is the solution to this problem? Repeating the same complaints over again at every opportunity doesnt seem to be working, though i commend your efforts.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." This was the last title I buy from CA at launch, if at all.

Yeah, yeah, sure. I bet you said that last time, too.
I take this statement as giving me carte blanche to point at you and call you names if i see you on here moaning about Whatever's Next:Total War.
Oh, and you got that saying wrong, i believe its 'Fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again'.

The magazines are part of the gaming culture, they have everything to gain by giving games great ratings.

To be fair, the magazines arent going to have a chance to spot things like the shield bug after the (relatively) small amount of time they get to spend with the game. Note that nobody noticed the shield bug (at least i dont recall seeing any mention of it on here) until a couple of months after release. Thats with 1000s of people playing the game.

The real problem with magazines is that quite often they will review beta code (okay... since the general opinion is that the release code is still in a beta state - i will say pre-release code), knowing its still going to be worked on prior to release, and assuming (or being told) that the bugs they do notice are probably going to be fixed. Gah!

Perspective though is a funny concept and one that shouldnt be suggested lightly. As a consumer you pay for a product and you have a certain expectation of what you are buying. If it dosent meet with your expectations and you continue to buy it, the process continues on because you are enableing it to do so.

Absolutely - i do have a certain expectation of what i will be buying. My expectation was that, being a complex strategy game, it would have bugs - just as pretty much every strategy game i've bought over the last 15 years has had bugs. My expectations are that these bugs will get fixed. I'd like anyone who has been a regular games purchaser, and who was still surprised and horrified to discover that M2TW had bugs on release, to please raise their hands so that the doctors can examine you.

I appreciate that we as paying customers have a right to expect a working product, but look, even moronic console games with the depth of a puddle ship with bugs. This is because all games software (in fact all software full stop) is now so complex that trying to comprehend all of the code at once would be like looking into the total perspective vortex. Games like M2TW that actually have complex gameplay as well as the graphics and physics engines have got it even worse.

I do know that games are produced in the state they are now mainly because the public buys them as is.

Its more like: companies are forced to rush games out to meet deadlines. There really is no choice - they are all in competition with each other to get something out while it still looks flashy enough compared to the competition that it will grab some sales.

Here's the thing: Strategy games (even if you include RTS stuff) have always had bugs. They will always have bugs. Its the price you pay for complexity. The current consumer obsession with flashy graphics and the vast cost of developing them means that sitting back and taking your time is simply not a viable option, and this combined with the ever increasing depth and complexity of these games means that we tend to get more bugs and more significant bugs.

At least CA/Sega are fixing the bugs. I know it doesnt sound like much to be grateful for but if theres else anyone out there that bought Master of Orion 3 you will know what i'm talking about. I may come across as a CA fanboy in these posts but believe me i'm not (i didnt enjoy RTW and wasnt going to bother with M2TW but ended up buying it anyway on a whim and was pleasantly surprised) but i do at least try to take account of the realities of the situation. The dozens of people posting "THEY SHOULDVE RELEASED THE GAME WITHOUT BUGS" or "THEY SHOULD MAKE THE AI CLEVERER" is about as insightful and helpful as saying "BEER SHOULD BE FREE" or "THEY SHOULD MAKE BEER THAT DOESNT GIVE YOU HANGOVERS". As nice as that would be, its not going to happen.

[Quickening]

Was like that in 1.1 already. :p

Any news on the other two tests I was asking about? I mean you are bound to have killed at least 1 enemy army so far right? (for the display thing)

As for the experience bonus you got the buildings yet? :D

In 1.1 the Pope always let me maintain sieges on cities even if he warned me.

Well yeah Ive had tonnes of battles and the name has been correct so far but that doesn't really prove anything. Could be wrong next time.

Haven't had the chance to test the upgrade thing and to be honest I don't really understand it. Im sure Foz or someone could give you a much better writeup.

[FactionHeir]

In my 1.1 the pope never lets me maintain sieges, go figure :D

For the message, so if you defeat an enemy army and get the "enemy army routs" message, does it say your general's name or the enemy general's name right under the heading?

Retraining...did you ever train/retrain a unit in 1.2 and it ended up being retrainable the next turn again as the retrain seemed to do nothing?

[Quickening]

In my 1.1 the pope never lets me maintain sieges, go figure :D

Im becoming more and more convinced every day that there are about four differently programmed kinds of this game out there

For the message, so if you defeat an enemy army and get the "enemy army routs" message, does it say your general's name or the enemy general's name right under the heading?

I... I... don't know now. That isn't the kind of thing I would normally notice. But in my game so far the name has been correct. Does it get it wrong all the time normally?

Retraining...did you ever train/retrain a unit in 1.2 and it ended up being retrainable the next turn again as the retrain seemed to do nothing?

Nope. But then, I never did in 1.1 either as far as I know.

[Heledir]

However, we promise to keep you informed on progress throughout the process of getting this update to you.

It's about time, that was my major problem with this whole delay is not that it was pushed back, thats fine let them get the bugs out, no my problem was that their was very infrequent updates on the update. It is better to not post a release date but they could at least have the courtesy to tell us, "oh we're fixing this" or "we're doing that". It was the complete silence that got on my nerves but hopefully now they will tell us whats going on until it is released.

[Whacker]

Sorry if my last post was a bit abbrasive, but I am getting a bit sick and tired of the "CA is justified in doing this!!" or "CA can do no wrong!" attitudes which is somewhat how I perceived your post.

@Whacker: I note you failed to choose either of the two scenarios, or to suggest any scenarios of your own, so i assume youre happy with the status quo. If not, what do you suggest is the solution to this problem? Repeating the same complaints over again at every opportunity doesnt seem to be working, though i commend your efforts.

The implication was that I am ok with option 2, as you stated. Games with minor or insignificant bugs are understandable, and acceptable in my personal view. As for repeating complaints, I'll keep doing that until CA rectifies the situation, or they make it obvious they do not care and I will move on and treat the $50 as a lesson learnt.

Yeah, yeah, sure. I bet you said that last time, too.
I take this statement as giving me carte blanche to point at you and call you names if i see you on here moaning about Whatever's Next:Total War.
Oh, and you got that saying wrong, i believe its 'Fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again'.

Actually I loved RTW from the get go, the only bug that really ruined it for me was the savegame corruption one in v1.0.

As for voting with my dollars, I've already done that with a number of games and franchises. Used to be a big fan of Valve... I think Steam is a DRM riddled pile of poop, Half-life 2 was decidedly mediocre, and I hate episodic content, as such I haven't bought anything on Steam since HL2, in fact I uninstalled Steam completely almost half a year ago. I unknowingly bought a Starforce crippled game about 2 years ago, when I finally figured out exactly what it was I've avoided every game on this list: http://www.glop.org/starforce/list.php like the plague. There are some games on here I'd really like to get too, but oh well.

Voting with your dollars works folks, period. The place where you make the impact and force businesses to listen is when you can affect their botton line. People who suggest not buying games is unrealistic are sadly mislead. Look at what happened to Ion Storm, the guys who put out the sheer awesomeness that is Deus Ex. They had 3 more titles, one of which was a flop, Deus Ex 2 was a horrible console port without any soul, and Thief 3 was another bad port using a terrible game engine. The lesson is simply make bad games, gamers won't buy, and the fat lady sings.

I sincerely hope CA will listen to it's fans and customers now and down the road. Been with the TW series from the beginning, but I'm willing to leave if it continues down this same path.

Respectfully

[edyzmedieval]

Finally, I can proudly say this is the attitude I've always expected from CA.

[FactionHeir]

Im becoming more and more convinced every day that there are about four differently programmed kinds of this game out there

Sometimes I think that too.

I... I... don't know now. That isn't the kind of thing I would normally notice. But in my game so far the name has been correct. Does it get it wrong all the time normally?

Always the same. So if it displays once correctly it always displays correctly. Just have a look next time you beat an army in the field (and the army is eliminated)

Nope. But then, I never did in 1.1 either as far as I know.

As you said at point 1 :p

[Quickening]

Always the same. So if it displays once correctly it always displays correctly. Just have a look next time you beat an army in the field (and the army is eliminated)

Okay I finally have a definitive answer and it's bad news. Since Ive no doubt come across as totally incompetant Ive provided a screenshot as proof

[FactionHeir]

Yup, still exists :D

[KARTLOS]

Riiight.

And the Aussie bashing stops now.

If you feel like continuing, check where I come from <<

it was a joke mate!

[Foz]

Yup, still exists :D

It's not a bug. The event triggers on YOUR general. Note how it says "enemy army routs." The event could have been more clearly worded as "your general caused the enemy army to route" but as it stands, while somewhat unclear, it is not wrong, nor a bug.

[DesertEagle]

ITen or fifteen years ago (pre-WWW), there were no forums for discussions of the relative merits of computer games other than magazines and groups of friends. If game was released with a "killer bug", the general gaming community would know about it but minor bugs didn't tend to get much air. Games that were imperfect tended to be generally recognised as such but it wasn't considered too big a deal if they were still enjoyable.

True, however also true is the fact that a company's reputation was built on the code they released, so there were no months later patches fixing the game. If a game was buggy, minor major or anything, then that company would not be able to say, "here we'll fix this."

As someone said, it is the consumers acceptance of this method of doing business, letting a company issue a buggy game and then fixing it later, that allows them to follow this business model.

If customers "made" the companies live and die by the code that came packaged in the box, the companies would either start fixing games before releasing them, or go out of business, or the consumers would accept minor issues.

All that said, I knew it would not be a perfect release and chose to invest in the game and enjoy it while letting it be polished along the way, instead of not buying it.

Honestly, after RTW, anyone who expected a perfect release, while admirably optimitic, should be embarrassed to say that they bought the game (assuming they did) not expecting some issues. Unless they are a TW noob :)

That said, I await the official patch excitedly, and in the meantime, I just reinstalled Rome/BI and am re-unlocking the world!

[sapi]

it was a joke mate!

Yep, but not everyone would have taken it that way and we don't want anyone getting any ideas, do we?

[sbroadbent]

It doesn't work "as intended." According to the release that started this thread, the "intermittent passive AI" is the main target right now, which means to CA at least, this is dysfunctional behavior, and requires fixing. Many things work right, but that one (at least) does not. And that's not even counting the fact that you have to reinstall the game to 1.0 to use the leaked patch. You could write that off as unimportant, but in reality it's a pain in the butt, and in itself warrants them pausing to remedy it.

When I say it worked "as intended" what I meant is that it didn't necessarily introduce any new bugs that made the game worse except for the CTD issue.

Well, I suppose if the AI was passive before the 1.2 patch and is still with the existing patch should it matter if they went ahead with the 1.2 release anyway or delayed it? Essentially, all the other things that the patch fixes were withheld (at the last minute no less), unless you grabbed a copy of the leaked patch. Should we be made to wait until they figure out why the AI is still passive? Does the leaked patch make the AI passive bug worse?

I never bothered to download the leaked patch because with my internet service, I get crap torrent speeds unless I stumble upon a peer/seed that has an amazing upload speed. I was waiting for one of the traditional download sites because atleast then I'd have a much better chance at a quick download.

Regarding the CTD issue, do we even know why it happened? Is it something to do with the installer? Is it easy to fix?


I've worked on a project where I had given myself a deadline. I ended up going a couple months over the deadline, and had several delays. Rather than delay the entire thing too far by trying to get the entire thing done, I decided to release the product in pieces. I probably got more completed since I was focused on smaller chunks and had a better time frame in which to complete the rest of the project, rather than waiting for a single release.

You might have a point where a single large patch makes more of a splash than a bunch of smaller patches, but it causes annoyances when some out here would like to see some progress with some of the fixes getting released.

I'll quickly respond to your points.

1. The community so far has done a good job at bug reporting. Stickied in this forum is the 1.3 Wishlist and 1.2 Buglist. Is there really that much reporting of fixed bugs that occurs.

2&3. This depends on how your organizational process is setup to deal with these kind of issues. Since I don't have much experience regarding the QA and development process, I acknowledge I have an incomplete picture of the overall process.

4. 1.2 was hyped because of how much if fixes, but there has likewise been a fair bit of annoyance and frustration from delay after delay.

[FactionHeir]

It's not a bug. The event triggers on YOUR general. Note how it says "enemy army routs." The event could have been more clearly worded as "your general caused the enemy army to route" but as it stands, while somewhat unclear, it is not wrong, nor a bug.

Then why did it in RTW show the enemy army's character name? IMO it just doesn't make sense that it should say your character's name if it says enemy army routs. Especially if you then see it with "your forces melt away"

[Alex The Great]

Ca Is Lazyyy

[Foz]

Then why did it in RTW show the enemy army's character name? IMO it just doesn't make sense that it should say your character's name if it says enemy army routs. Especially if you then see it with "your forces melt away"

Perhaps it was bugged in RTW and just now got fixed. Just because M2 does it differently doesn't mean M2 is wrong. Of course it looks wrong to you, because you're used to seeing it the other way...

I have no idea which way it is actually supposed to be, and don't think any of us really does... so it seems premature to label it a bug. Of course you're free to think as you wish. It wouldn't be the first time you've labeled something a bug without any clear indication it is not working as intended, though, and I'm quite certain it won't be the last either.

[FactionHeir]

delete

[Sheep]

"BEER SHOULD BE FREE"

Now there's something everyone can agree on!

Then why did it in RTW show the enemy army's character name?

It didn't.