Latest update on 1.2 patch from Sega/CA

[Lord_hazard]

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

I totally agree. IMO piracy is worse then ever and its quickly starting to destroy the pc market.

[sapi]

Thanks to everyone who did their best to engage in constructive debate.

A reminder to a select few people: advocating piracy is against guild rules and as such is simply not acceptable in this forum.

Above and beyond that, what right to you have to complain about a game that you haven't even purchased?

My sincere thanks go to Jerome for braving the terrors of this thread to present his point of view.

[Matty]

I smell the whiff of the banhammer....

[edyzmedieval]

My sincere thanks go to Jerome for braving the terrors of this thread to present his point of view.

Ditto. Thank you Jerome.

[sapi]

Matty, please don't feed the troll (though it would be fair to say that Dracula's immediate future here is clouded)

[Temujin]

I totally agree. IMO piracy is worse then ever and its quickly starting to destroy the pc market.

Indeed. The obvious solution is to further lower the quality of games, load them up with malware and provide little or no customer support. If the pirates are so succesful, copying their practices must surely be the way to go.

Chicken? Or egg?

[sapi]

Actually, the obvious (and workable) solution is an online verification system such as Steam; but we digress

[Temujin]

Actually, the obvious (and workable) solution is an online verification system such as Steam; but we digress

Oh, absolutely. Because such a flawless protection scheme is exactly what the customers really want.

Forget about quality, customer support and all that other nonsense. Nobody really wants that anyway.

[Durallan]

Actually, the obvious (and workable) solution is an online verification system such as Steam; but we digress

NO. Nonononononononononononono.

I would agree to Egosofts way, of registering your serial number to get the patches and other cool stuff to download, but not an onilne verification system, unless it allowed me to download the game later on (like Stardock). Just NO. What happens when you want to play the game a say a decade later and the company has gone bust or something? What does one do then? Steam is barely acceptable. It forces the program on you to play the game which I don't like but maybe thats just me.

[FactionHeir]

I quite liked those things in the old days where certain hints were in the manual and without the manual, you'd be stuck at a point in game and couldn't continue (as you wouldn't know in which order for example you had to do something).
I guess the problem would then be people putting the manual online. But that would probably be rarer than the game online, especially if the company does not provide an electronic copy of the manual (someone will have to scan pages)

Or that thing where you had to enter a certain word from a certain page of the manual to start the game. That was priceless. Too bad there's always going to be the kind of people who will try to make those things available online. Not much that can be done about it. Actually I do wonder whether copy protection is overrated. The people pirating with or without would likely still be around the same but the publisher saves some cash not buying the copy protection and having to worry about constantly updating it and getting hate from the community members who use an abberant CD drive that the copy protection doesn't like.

[Nellup]

Actually I do wonder whether copy protection is overrated. The people pirating with or without would likely still be around the same but the publisher saves some cash not buying the copy protection and having to worry about constantly updating it and getting hate from the community members who use an abberant CD drive that the copy protection doesn't like.

I agree, a great example is Stardock, companies should follow in Stardock's footsteps, you don't need a serial to install or play the game at all, but if you want the numerous updates (which not only fix things, they also add features) you need to enter your serial number into a program called Stardock central, which is similar to Steam except it doesn't need to be running or even on your system to play the game.

[Whacker]

I agree, a great example if Stardock, companies should follow in Stardock's footsteps, you don't need a serial to install or play the game at all, but if you want the numerous updates (which not only fix things, they also add features) you need to enter your serial number into a program called Stardock central, which is similar to Steam except it doesn't need to be running or even on your system to play the game.

This would be perfectly fine and acceptable to me. Steam is a DRM and bug riddled PoS. I'm completely and totally for publishers attempting to protect their software, but there's a line that's drawn when software becomes spyware/big brother/1984-ish, Steam is over that line IMO. What's even sadder is Valve had the right idea with WON. For the record I do agree that piracy is a problem, but it's not nearly as bad as some sections of the industry and publishers would try to make it out to be.

[Agent Smith]

I agree, a great example if Stardock, companies should follow in Stardock's footsteps, you don't need a serial to install or play the game at all, but if you want the numerous updates (which not only fix things, they also add features) you need to enter your serial number into a program called Stardock central, which is similar to Steam except it doesn't need to be running or even on your system to play the game.

The kicker is Gal Civ 2 was a top selling game for weeks...WITHOUT any protection. Heck, you don't even need the cd to play the game. You just install it (or download the entire thing online).

Gal Civ 2 was a perfect example that the same success can be had without the ridiculous protections that make it annoying for "legal" gamers.

[valhalla89]

I can't help but feel that yesterdays outburst @twcenter by Caliban regarding trolls may have been pointing a finger at me!!!

Does expressing my displeasure at having received a faulty game make me a troll? or for being observant enough to notice the plethora of bugs and then brave enough to make comment make me a troll? Am I a troll for expressing dissatisfaction for the fact that I had to wait 5 months for customer service to fix the game?

or, god forbid to ever make any negative comment in regards to the game whether justified or not make me a troll?

.....Ja, pretty much.

[TinCow]

Keep on topic please. This thread is for discussion of patch 1.2, not general game industry copy protection methods. If you want to talk about that, take it to the Arena.

[Pode]

It's an interesting suggestion, and I'll certainly discuss it with the powers that be. It's the difference between "opting in" to the pre-patch build and not doing so, and it would definitely give a better quality product lying in the shops.... But there is one thing that is likely to scupper it, which is piracy - generally titles last 1-2 weeks before being cracked, and thats if you're both lucky and use the latest copy protection. Games getting out onto the warez circuit before release is fairly disastrous.

I wish I could take credit for the idea, but it's Brad Wardell and crew at Stardock that introduced me to it with the way they handled Galactic Civilizations II. Which, BTW, has done right well for itself without copy protection of any sort, through the mechanism of requiring the CD key in order to register to get the patches.

If I ran the zoo, I would aim for a release build on the CDs to be a presentable beta (first cut beta version less any crash bugs, basically), and then all of the other fixes be bundled into a release day patch (which requires the CD key to install). In this way, the pre-release beta tests work out as discussed before, and the pirates get a weakly functioning version of the game. If they like it and see potential, they buy it in order to get the patches, and now piracy has made you an extra sale, on top of the money you previously made off us fans who burned down your preorder server the second it went live. Which I think is exactly the point in the dev cycle when extra cash would be most handy, as it can go toward the final marketing blitz.

In short, I think in a lot of ways this is a really good idea, and the fact that you're willing to discuss it with the brass in spite of the piracy concerns makes me VERY happy.

[Quickening]

I wish I could take credit for the idea, but it's Brad Wardell and crew at Stardock that introduced me to it with the way they handled Galactic Civilizations II. Which, BTW, has done right well for itself without copy protection of any sort, through the mechanism of requiring the CD key in order to register to get the patches.

Paradox did the exact same thing with Europa Universalis 3 (except they went one step too far and gave owners of the Collectors Edition more free content to download than those with the standard edition damn them). I think it's a great policy personally.
Not only that, but when you have registered your game it is linked to your account on their forum so you can see who has the game. Only those who have registered the game get access to the tech forums. Not sure about that one.

[FactionHeir]

Thats kind of like Bioware and how you can only post on certain forums there if you have a valid cd key registered on their site.

[PutCashIn]

Maybe those who are upset at not being 'allowed' to trash CA/SEGA etc might want to consider where the server for this forum is hosted - If its in a litigal country like the USA, I bet the moderators would be rather quick to clamp down on any posts that are going to get them sued back into the stoneage.

[Whacker]

Sorry, but that last post is just ignorance regarding law and legal procedure. There's a pretty well defined difference between legitimate complaints and criticism of a product which is part of free speech, at least in the US, and illegal speech. The other individual's highly controversial posts that we've been asked to ignore are not in of themselves illegal, however the behavior described clearly is. Best thing to do is warn, ban if necessary which I believe is probably occurring. The mods said it best, don't feed the troll in this case.

Discussing copy protection schemes may arguably not be on topic with this thread, but I think some of it is keeping in the spirit of the discussion. I do agree that this has gotten way off topic though, at this point.



So, after what, a few weeks now, now that some of us have had time to digest the leaked patch, have any opinions changed?

Honestly my opinion has not. The big button issue for me, unit blobbing and cohesion, shows absolutely no improvement since v1.0 in my experience. Trying to keep my armies in sync, moving in formation, responding to commands effectively, reforming, etc... It's pretty much impossible. This is one aspect where RTW just blows M2TW out of the water. See my post in the bug thread for an aspect of this, it's not the whole picture but it shows much of it. This, coupled with the passive AI bug and extremely wierd behavior in some sieges has led me to just autoresolve all the battles I fight. Kinda sad, because it takes away that whole aspect of the game. The campaign map is fun and I like spending a lot of time on it, but fighting the battles is really the core of what this series is about, without them the game just feels empty. Sure there are some improvements, which are all well and good and to be expected, unfortunately for me the big issues that ruin the game haven't been fixed. Worse, I am starting to get the feeling and impression that this is the way the game is designed to work, and I sincerely hope that is NOT the case.

[Foz]

*discussion on unit blobbing/anti-blobbing*

I haven't seen as horrible results as any of your test pictures are showing, and my units do try to put themselves back into formation while they're marching/running. It's sure not perfect, but it's not disgusting like your pictures, either. I noticed your units sizes in the pics though. Try normal sizes: I can only guess that's why the whole anti-blobbing thing has never seemed problematic to me. In fact come to think of it, the unit size setting may be responsible for an awful lot of the discrepancy we see in forum discussions.

Hope that works for you: it would be a breath of fresh air for you to be somewhat appeased, even if grudgingly and only for 5 minutes.

[Durallan]

actually with 1.2 things seems to ahve gotten worse in sieges for me. I now have to order each individual unit to a spot anywhere otherwise they will stop moving completely, some units just freeze and don't move again for the whole siege.... getting stuck in silly place in the city, like stopping moving in the middle of the road, this has mostly been with archers crossbowmen and taking off the skirmish option seems to help somewhat. I swear it didn't do this in 1.1

still terribly frustrating and I lose a fair amount of archers that I shouldn't have lost, but anyway.

[SoxSexSax]

Patch makes the game slightly better (mainly due to shield bug fix, 2H fix and siege pathfinding fix) but it is still a looong way from good:

- Battle AI is still basically inept and frequently passive (with horrible consistency if you set it to defender in a custom battle...)

- Deploying properly when defending a siege is practically impossible due to needing about 5 feet between any man and a wall

- No effort was made whatsoever to balance any units...if you don't think balance is whacked, just check out the difference in stats of Poland's 2 main missile troops and then the difference in cost. This is one of many examples of similarly priced units of the same basic type having huge disparities in effectiveness at the same task.

- Campaign AI still builds low tech armies all the time. It's so fun being the world's only superpower and crushing stack after stack after meaningless stack of mercenary crossbowmen and peasants...it really is...

So yeah, they've fixed some critical issues. Woohoo. The game still has about as much challenge in SP as Snap vs a deaf mute. I simply cannot fathom how I could lose a campaign unless I deliberately sabotaged myself. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the patch has made things EASIER. Now spearmen can actually hold out for a few seconds, I can make significant armies earlier and easier.

Like Rome, Med 2 looks great, sounds great and, for the first few days, was enjoyable. But when you dig a little beneath the surface, what you basically have is an RPG, where you are the emperor of a small country that rises to be a great empire, not a strategy game. You're not playing against the AI, you're just playing. And, personally, I don't find that to be much fun.

[PutCashIn]

LOL, if anything was well defined in Law, you wouldnt need Lawyers.

[Durallan]

LOL, if anything was well defined in Law, you wouldnt need Lawyers.

If politicians had to do their own taxes, we would have had tax reform long ago!


sorry for the spam.

[econ21]

The game still has about as much challenge in SP as Snap vs a deaf mute. I simply cannot fathom how I could lose a campaign unless I deliberately sabotaged myself.

I'm finding the level of challenge good. I follow some houserules (e.g. avoid rushing or excessive sacking/exterminating) but don't sabotage myself. I've given up my latest English campaign as too hard (I want to do it right next time). The Mongols have arrived and my crusaders just lost Antioch to a rebellion. France is as powerful as ever, and has been joined by Germany, Denmark, Spain and Portugal in fighting me on the continent.

But when you dig a little beneath the surface, what you basically have is an RPG, where you are the emperor of a small country that rises to be a great empire, not a strategy game.

Tastes differ. For me, it's the RPG/strategic layer of M2TW that is rather dull. I'm finding the battles, always the standout feature of the TW series, are as good as ever.

[Colossus]

"I'm finding the battles, always the standout feature of the TW series, are as good as ever."

Shame gs doesnt do them justice, shame :-|.

[Vlad Tzepes]

To keep discussions on-topic, 1.2, as requested, here's something I don't understand.

I waited for the patch to be released 2 weeks ago, got ready, checked net connection and everything. Then a strange 1.2 semi-official version showed up, just to be immediately withdrawn. I decided to wait for the official one, as it seemed almost everything in the patch was basically okay, otherwise they wouldn't post it in the first place, right? Honestly, I thought it was only a matter of hours.

4 days later I left for a short holiday and got back today. Checked the Guild... Still no official patch. Also, I couldn't find (maybe didn't search enough, I dunno...) any official statement about this delay.

What's going on?

[Slaists]

What's going on?

people are playing the unofficial 1.02... that's what's going on and dead silence from CA as to the official release.

[Jokerkaaos]

I'm finding the level of challenge good. I follow some houserules (e.g. avoid rushing or excessive sacking/exterminating) but don't sabotage myself. I've given up my latest English campaign as too hard (I want to do it right next time).

But isn't this an admission that the game itself doesn't provide an adequate challenge?

I am playing the "unofficial" 1.2, and while the AI is definitely improved in terms of recruiting quality troops (but not without remaining problems like massive peasant/catapult armies) and battlemap passivity (also still with problems), it is still not aggressive or focused enough on the strategy map to make it possible for the player to be wiped out.

I notice two things in particular in this regard:

1) The AI seems to have a delay in reacting to having its cities attacked. Time and again I will beseige a city and watch the AI, on his next turn, move a nearby large support army off somewhere else toward some other multi-turn objective, ignoring me. Sometimes it will turn around and try to help NEXT turn, but by then it's usually too late.

2) Every time I see the AI move an army out of a city, it always steps out to the west of the city first no matter which direction the army is going next. It will often merge multiple stacks together in this spot, and I am guessing that this is a sort of (really bad) technique of establishing a "waypoint" built in to help facilitate making larger stacks before the units go on to do other things.

This might seem small, but it's very dumb AI and it costs the AI a lot of movement points. I also suspect that this might have something to do with the odd prioritization of AI stack movement on the map, as perhaps stacks have a protocol to move toward these one-tile-west-of-the-city muster spots before they do anything else.

I have played a short campaign as England and a long campaign as Sicily with the patch (both on vh/vh), and while the start was a bit more difficult, my eventual dominance was never in doubt.

Like you, I have been pondering some "house rules" to impose upon myself to make the game more challenging, but I know from experience that this will not be enough. The patch is a step forward, but extensive patching/modding is still going to be required to bring this up to the standards of Shogun and Medieval 1.

One other thing - in the Sicily campaign the Mongols arrived but never seemed to take any cities. I had one diplomat in the area, and as he followed the Mongol stacks around I saw that they were just roaming about Turkey, making regions go rebel but not taking a single city in about 50 years. The Mongols and Turks were at war, but the Mongol stacks would path back and forth each turn all around the eastern Turkish provinces and I never saw them attack anything.