What, no ceasefire? All you have is that hut left of your empire.

[Budwise]

I was playing small campaign mode with British and it seems like time after time even with a mixed or good reputation, I cannot offer a ceasefire. I even got to the point to kicking the french all the way to their last stronghold in the bottom of present day France, I had three stacks of well trained units siegeing the capital. I even offered an extremely generous list (trying to postpone victory conditions and to see if they would accept.) for a ceasefire like giving back not only Paris but two other major regions, a whole whopping bank full of hundreds and all the rights I can give them. AND THEY NEEDED THIS, I didn't. They still said no and it only said Balanced on the tradeoff info.

My observation is this, at the dawn of endgame, the computer will do everything it can do to stall but not ceasefire. I was at war with Milan and Spain at the same time. I took over completely Sicily when they also refused my generous ceasefire (Actually better than above.) I saw stacks upon stack trying to take over my foothold in France but with no avail. I think the CPU got desperate toward Endgame and tried all that it could do. Even HRE stood back and watched, IGNORING ALL MY PLEAS FOR ANY ASSISTANCE AT ALL. Stupid Milan and stupid nations loving them too much. Well, lets just say I won.

[sapi]

Ceasefires and Vassals can be stupid like that - basically, no matter what you offer, if you were the one who started the negotiations you have little chance of success

[Orda Khan]

Always has been a major failing of this game that weak factions do the most ridiculous things

.......Orda

[Odin]

Diplomacy is a major issue with MTW2 some of the AI shanagans is ridiculous, it seems unable to calculate a good choice based on the criteria available (force strenght, reputation, wealth).

However the model in place seems to have the potential to be a rather nice functioning system if the AI were be a bit more savvy (your example aside). If I am the HRE and the french offer an alliance and trade rights and i note they are at war with England I ask for more because the alliance means more to them then me (this is one basic premise the AI seems to miss).

An AI HRE could hurt a human France if the human is fighting the English. While the threat might not be deadly in the humans eyes, the AI should see this as a diplomatic or military opportunity, and not soely military.

The diplomacy model appears to be able to handle that, i am no programmer but if we can get some kind of bump in diplomacy AI on the harder levels that would be a fine improvement to the game.

[HoreTore]

How much easier would the game be if the AI made rational decisions?

They should be cooperate among themselves, and very hostile against the player...

[SoxSexSax]

How much easier would the game be if the AI made rational decisions?

They should be cooperate among themselves, and very hostile against the player...

I disagree. The AI hurts itself, not helps, by continuing to war when it's blatantly going to lose. In my current Poland game, Hungary are at war with pretty much every other catholic faction, and yet they STILL refuse my ceasefire request, even when I offer to give them back Budapest. That...makes...no...sense...

[FactionHeir]

Actually if you mod the campaign_db file to have trustworthy allies AND lower the requirements for the AI to accept a ceasefire/protectorate you could achieve that.

I noticed doing those changes also fixed the problem whereby you would remain allied to 2 warring factions: now you auto-unally with the defending faction. Similarly your allies auto declare war on someone if you wage war.

[hoof]

Actually, it's not unheard of. Germany tried many times to sue for peace with England after the fall of France. Hitler had respect for England and didn't want to conquer the English islands (he wanted to invade Russia, and England took away from that). There was never any guarantee that England would hold out against the full might of the German military (esp. if they had gone 100% after England, vs focusing on gearing up for the war to the east). As history showed, they were able to hold out, but at the time there was no guarantee.

Another example is the battle of the bulge. The famous "nuts" quote from the battle of Bastogne (I think that's the spelling) is another example of a vastly overpowered force choosing to fight on despite the obvious.

The Alamo is yet another example.

[SoxSexSax]

The few occasions where it has happened in real life in no way justifies the utter conistency with which it happens in M2TW. I don't think (on VH/VH) I have EVER had a ceasefire offer accepted...the only ceasefires that ever happen is when they offer it to me...and they only EVER offer it to me if we don't touch land borders. In my experience, on VH, if war breaks out against a country you have a land border with, that war continues until A) one of you dies or B) you no longer share a border.

In some situations, you could argue that the AI is right to do this, But certainly not all, and probably not even most. Diplomacy in this game right now is FUBAR. I don't expect the kind of diplomatic depth from a TW game as Civ4 or EU, for example, but nor do I expect total incompetence, which is what we currently have.

Roll on 1.2, I say!

[Orda Khan]

The few occasions where it has happened in real life in no way justifies the utter conistency with which it happens in M2TW. I don't think (on VH/VH) I have EVER had a ceasefire offer accepted...the only ceasefires that ever happen is when they offer it to me...and they only EVER offer it to me if we don't touch land borders. In my experience, on VH, if war breaks out against a country you have a land border with, that war continues until A) one of you dies or B) you no longer share a border.

In some situations, you could argue that the AI is right to do this, But certainly not all, and probably not even most. Diplomacy in this game right now is FUBAR. I don't expect the kind of diplomatic depth from a TW game as Civ4 or EU, for example, but nor do I expect total incompetence, which is what we currently have.

Roll on 1.2, I say!

I have to agree and it's probably the main reason why I tire with SP so quickly

.......Orda

[Zasz1234]

yeah, the ai is pretty ridiculous. Although as the scots, after fighting several wars with the british, even stabbing them in the back twice in short succession they still ceasefired and then allied me, while France my staunch ally from the start suddenly cancels our alliance before said deal even occurs, now there is a solid Anglo-Scottish alliance chewing up France and Denmark, and the English show no signs of giving up. I think this is doubly weird considering I though the English wer hard-coded to hate the Scots no matter what. So I guess the ai is capable of moments of true diplomatic genius and absolute stupidity.

[vonsch]

I agree, the no ceasefire thing is annoying.

I have Egypt pushed into just Tripoli in my current Turk game. Will they talk ceasefire? Sure! But I'm being "very demanding." Yeah, demanding they don't suicide.

I guess I will see if I can make them a vassal. The long distance from Tripoli to Alexandria gives me a buffer zone to watch for incoming backstabs, so I don't mind letting them live on, if they will behave.

Or maybe I should just bribe the Moors into attacking them.

[Discoman]

Another example is the battle of the bulge. The famous "nuts" quote from the battle of Bastogne (I think that's the spelling) is another example of a vastly overpowered force choosing to fight on despite the obvious.

The Alamo is yet another example.

Well thats different. General Taylor said "Nuts" most likely because he knew allied support would eventually arrive and because it would cause a serious morale blow to have the elite para-troopers surrendering to the Germans. The Alamo was for independence and as in any TW game, you can't baragin with rebels who want liberty or death as the saying goes.
Besides that I really hate the fact that the only true alliance I can have in the game is with the Papal states, infact I found the only way not to fight certain factions is to give the Papal states border regions. That way you can have less enemies and have more set areas for conquest. Also it annoys me that the AI only betrays human controlled factions and not that of other AI. Honestly I wish I could gain a vassal kingdom or have a permenant ally to help me rule the known world. Also its stupid how weaker factions attack you for no reason. Example, Portugal attacks me when I'm Venice even though I have the strongest military and economy. Honestly where is the common sense in that? Even when you have the best of reputation it doesn't make the least bit difference on diplomacy except it's harder to make alliances that won't last for 10 turns.

[Husar]

I agree with discoman, the AI likes to attack all the time if you share a border and being allied to someone on the opposite side of the worldmap is not really the most useful thing I could think of.

[Patricius]

Well thats different. General Taylor said "Nuts" most likely because he knew allied support would eventually arrive and because it would cause a serious morale blow to have the elite para-troopers surrendering to the Germans. The Alamo was for independence and as in any TW game, you can't baragin with rebels who want liberty or death as the saying goes.
Besides that I really hate the fact that the only true alliance I can have in the game is with the Papal states, infact I found the only way not to fight certain factions is to give the Papal states border regions. That way you can have less enemies and have more set areas for conquest. Also it annoys me that the AI only betrays human controlled factions and not that of other AI. Honestly I wish I could gain a vassal kingdom or have a permenant ally to help me rule the known world. Also its stupid how weaker factions attack you for no reason. Example, Portugal attacks me when I'm Venice even though I have the strongest military and economy. Honestly where is the common sense in that? Even when you have the best of reputation it doesn't make the least bit difference on diplomacy except it's harder to make alliances that won't last for 10 turns.

I thought that the ai has a setting in campaign_db to attack the most successful faction. Editing does help a bit, but I find that once the ai factions become hostile a diplomat is pointless.

[vonsch]

Heh, diplomacy is just to hold them off long enough to get ready to KILL THEM ALL!

Wait, maybe I've been playing muslim factions too long.

[anders]

The number one priority of any medieval european ruling house would be self-preservation, to stay in rule and to keep your lands from shrinking. stubborn refusals to yield to a totally superior foe, offering good terms, is just stupid, and is the biggest letdown of the strategic game. I mean, every single king in the game acts like Hitler in the last days of the Reich. This looks even dumber when you take into consideration that you get offered ceasefire at almost any monetary cost in the beginning of the game, when your rep is good, but you have no apparent advantage over the enemy in the field.

Of course every now and then a war should be fought to the bitter end, but that should be the exception, not the rule.

[SoxSexSax]

It feels to me that the AI's goal is more "stop the player winning" rather than "let's try to win". Which, if true, is wrong and could go a way to explaining why I rarely finish a long campaign.

[Belisarius Invictus]

Seems to me the concept of vassals in the game is out of whack. In real life, you didn't have major powers making other powers their vassals and collecting serious tribute from them. Vassalage between factions (as opposed to the more common feudal vassals within factions) was typically more something like the Papal States being nominally under the control of the HRE, or Holland being under the control of Spain.

What I mean is, such vassals might kick back a SMALL amount of tax revenues, but the real "perks" of having a faction as your vassal was they didn't have a foreign policy independent from your own (can't start wars), and you would choose who their faction heir is. Basically, it's not that they give you their paycheck each month, but rather they can't blow their nose without asking if it's OK with you.

[Budwise]

I got all the ceasefires that I asked for. After screwing around and building up repore with enemy nations and beating the hell out of them. I asked for ceasefires and didn't have to pay much for it. If it says VERY DEMANDING - forget it but if it says GENEROUS, go for it. I had a war with Spain, Milan and Sicily at the same time and now its just on with Milan. I wanted a break. Their front lines a decimated and I wanted to reinforce my stuff before prolonging the conflict anymore.

Down with Milan. They are like Termites and eat away at the foundations of the map. THey must be terminated.

[Packet]

I agree, the AI is totally stupid and it really ruins this otherwise great game. The AI just attacks you whenever it wants, regardless of the current peace/war status.

I have been playing as England and allied with Spain so that I could focus on France and Denmark. I tried to make peace with Denmark but that wasn't working. I was allied with Spain for a LONG time, talking to them frequently and giving them map info, 500 florins and offering to attack the Moors for them which raised my relation status to Perfect. After wiping out France and holding the east border I started working on the middle east, Egypt and Africa. Many turns went by and I kept talking to Spain keeping my relations good/outstanding/perfect by giving them about 500 cash nearly every turn. I held Tolouise and Bordeaux and never made any agressive moves towards Spain. We're both at war with the Moors and he's fighting them around Corduba and has plenty of room to expand south. I'm only sending merchants to Timbuktu and only have Tripoli and the old Carthage city (forgot the name). A dozen or so turns later I see a stack of Spainish troops cross over into my lands. I send my diplomat to talk to him and give him 500 florins, map info and an offer to attack the moors all as a gift and he happily accepts and says how much he loves me. Our relations are "perfect"! The next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux and puts in under siege! I reloaded the last saved game and backed up a turn and get the Pope to call a crusade to take Corduba figuring that might distract his attention. Again I go and offer him 500 florins, map info, attack on the moors and he happily accepts. But as soon as I hit next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux again! Not even calling a crusade in a territory right next to him distracts him. Diplomacy is totally irrelevant.

During a short campaign as the Scotts I had made my way down to Africa at war with the Moors. I offered him ceasefires including 1000 cash, map info, trade rights, etc etc and he continually refused. So as he's down to one territory I attack and wipe out his main stack of troops. Before I siege his last city I send my diplomat and offer him to become a vassal (he refuses) so then I offer him another ceasefire, with cash and an "accept for I'll attack" thrown in. He refuses so I siege his last city and wipe him out on the same turn. There's just no respect or fear from the AI towards the player and it's a big disappointment.

[Atalus]

I don't even bother with diplomacy after making Trade rites. There is no point due to the fact that all alliances mean nothing to the AI. just park one outside the popes hut and that's about all you need

[Harve]

Just today playing Hungary the Turks who had lost their capital and had only one province left they offered a ceasefire for nothing

[Shahed]

Actually if you mod the campaign_db file to have trustworthy allies AND lower the requirements for the AI to accept a ceasefire/protectorate you could achieve that.

I noticed doing those changes also fixed the problem whereby you would remain allied to 2 warring factions: now you auto-unally with the defending faction. Similarly your allies auto declare war on someone if you wage war.

Hi, does anyone know what I should change to lower the requirements for vassalage and ceasefire ? also to implement the auto-un ally and auto-war ? Many thanks in advance !

Salute !

[Durallan]

you guys should use the leaked 1.2 AI files, I'm ahving alot more fun with the AI with the 1.2 files,

I must say I've still had problems, Sicily wouldn't agree to vassalship even if I gave them back all their territories, however Scotland and the Holy Roman Empire have become vassals.

[Furious Mental]

Maybe this is the game's way of telling you to be more ruthless.

[Memnoch]

This is one of the reasons why when I end up waging war with someone else (usually after they have attacked me first) it's usually to the death - because they NEVER surrender, or accept a ceasefire, not even when I have three full-stack armies outside the walls of the shell of their last pathetic city (whose buildings my assassins have virtually destroyed).

I have been playing as England and allied with Spain so that I could focus on France and Denmark. I tried to make peace with Denmark but that wasn't working. I was allied with Spain for a LONG time, talking to them frequently and giving them map info, 500 florins and offering to attack the Moors for them which raised my relation status to Perfect. After wiping out France and holding the east border I started working on the middle east, Egypt and Africa. Many turns went by and I kept talking to Spain keeping my relations good/outstanding/perfect by giving them about 500 cash nearly every turn. I held Tolouise and Bordeaux and never made any agressive moves towards Spain. We're both at war with the Moors and he's fighting them around Corduba and has plenty of room to expand south. I'm only sending merchants to Timbuktu and only have Tripoli and the old Carthage city (forgot the name). A dozen or so turns later I see a stack of Spainish troops cross over into my lands. I send my diplomat to talk to him and give him 500 florins, map info and an offer to attack the moors all as a gift and he happily accepts and says how much he loves me. Our relations are "perfect"! The next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux and puts in under siege! I reloaded the last saved game and backed up a turn and get the Pope to call a crusade to take Corduba figuring that might distract his attention. Again I go and offer him 500 florins, map info, attack on the moors and he happily accepts. But as soon as I hit next turn he heads straight for Bordeaux again! Not even calling a crusade in a territory right next to him distracts him. Diplomacy is totally irrelevant.

This has just happened to me too. As Hungary I had perfect relations and alliances with most powers - I had a long-standing marriange alliance with Poland and Denmark, while I also had alliances with the Pope, Sicily, the HRE, England, France, Portugal, Spain and Russia (all on perfect), while I also had perfect relations and an alliance with Turkey (I wanted to secure my eastern flank while I eliminated the Byzantines). I had outstanding relations with Egypt, the Moors and Spain, although I didn't have alliances with them.

I could understand the Turks breaking their alliance against me as a jihad was called on Constantinople - after I bloodied their noses by destroying two full stack jihad armies outside Nicaea they sued for peace as our relations were still "reasonable" at that point. This seemed to be democracy which was logical, reasonable and based on geopolitical realities.

But what was really wierd was when a Spanish general with about 4 units (2 catapults, a jinete and a spear unit) landed on Ajaccio which I had taken from the Venetians some time ago, and attacked me for no reason at all! I had an alliance with them, and the status of our relations were perfect. Why? What did they have to gain? Even worse they refuse to accept any ceasefire, so I've been in a 10 year war with them where both of us are too far to attack the other. This didn't make any sense at all to me.

Another example was when, after my princess married the Danish king, I accepted a request from the Danes to help them against the HRE. I attacked from the east while they attacked from the north - I took Nuremburg after some heavy fighting. Then I saw a full Danish stack coming south from Hamburg - I thought it was headed to Staufen, but no - it headed to Nuremburg and the clowns attacked me! This is a nation that I had a perfect alliance with, had a marriage alliance and was helping in a war against the HRE. In addition, Denmark was ALSO at war with France and England, so it wasn't in their best interests to get embroiled in another war, with a strong and trusted ally (they only had about 3 provinces all up, and if they wanted to expand they could have done so to the north as Oslo and Stockholm were rebel provinces). It didn't make sense...

[uanime5]

What annoys me is that the factions I'm not playing as never try to negociate a ceasefire or ask to become my vassal even when I'm crushing their armies and exterminating their cities, nor do they seek out an alliance no matter how strong my faction is or whether we share a common enemy. Similiarly if I'm at war with two factions they won't form an alliance or alliances against me.

[RickooClan]

you guys should use the leaked 1.2 AI files, I'm ahving alot more fun with the AI with the 1.2 files,

I must say I've still had problems, Sicily wouldn't agree to vassalship even if I gave them back all their territories, however Scotland and the Holy Roman Empire have become vassals.

Yea, in 1.02 factions will actively seek for ceasefire/become vassals if they think they are in trouble.

Cant wait for the full release of 1.02. Without the passive AI bug and such, the game will become really great imo.

[Durallan]

Yea, in 1.02 factions will actively seek for ceasefire/become vassals if they think they are in trouble.

Cant wait for the full release of 1.02. Without the passive AI bug and such, the game will become really great imo.

I tried an experiment yesterday, I've been at a bitter war with portugal for awhile, so I thought what the hell I'll see if they accept a vassalship for 1 million florins, and they accepted, nothing else just 1 mil florins and the vassalship. Next turn I got the 1 million back.... so I got a vassalship for pretty much nothing. I now have 4 vassals, the Turks, Portugal, Scotland and HRE, I've tried to get poland and papal states as vassals, but unfortunately the turks are allied to them both and even though they were allied to me, when I declared war on the turks they broke their alliance with me, and the turks aremt even catholic! not to mention the fact I've been allied to them ALOT longer than they have been allied to the turks