Fixing the AI money script (preliminary tests)

[Gaias]

I really like having a huge superpower to fight later in the game though, I should probably just stay out of this thread.

I actually have the money scripts doubled for all factions, in some cases tripled for the smaller factions and slaves. I also enjoy playing and battling with large stacks of units, as it brings a challenge not offered in most cases.

I was posting my questions here to see if what I was thinking about doing, for a personal mod, would work. Just seemed this thread would be the most relevent to post in.

[deadmeat36]

I feel stupid but where do I put this?

[Thaatu]

I guess I'm not sure I understand, some people are complaining that a huge empire has lots of stacks, and they get sick of fighting?

Look at Redmeth's post and map. He has a massive border, thousands of miles long with the Seleucid. He is at war with them, wouldn't you think there would be a lot of fighting? Wouldn't you think there would be many stacks fighting along that border? That would be realistic.

I honestly don't see the problem, it seems to me you guys want to roleplay only to the extent you are winning the entire time. There should be wars where there is lots of fighting and things stalemate, and if you can't beat them, don't fight. Now that Redmeth has taken away the money, he is advancing. Where is the glory and honor in that?

The best thing to do is develop some tactics, both in battle and on the strategy map that allow you to win. For instance, if I were Redmeth, I would open up a second front around Judea or Asia minor by sending a couple stacks in ships. Take some cities quick, then hold them, that will relieve a lot of pressure from the border as the Seleucids send the stacks to retake the cities. The defender gets a huge advantage in the cities. I've done that many, many times to big empires, and it works.

I really like having a huge superpower to fight later in the game though, I should probably just stay out of this thread.

The point of this script is to give a chance for all the AI factions to succeed. I'm mostly worried about the expansion of factions I'm not in contact with, thus having no influence over them. The large, wealthy factions need hardly any financial support, but factions like Saka or Sarmatians can only support two to four units of horse archers in the beginning of the game, crippling their AI. This script is also meant to extend the lifespan of some factions, so with luck the world won't be owned by four disformed empires by 200BC.

[LordCurlyton]

Quick ideas sort of related to the problem this script is attempting to fix:
Could some of the issues be solved in other ways? Frex, a lot of the problem seems to be that the 1-3 province factions (Sweboz excluded at least in my experience) have trouble expanding mainly b/c their economy sucks. Pontus in particular seems to have problems by being stuck next to the AS and having mainly strong garrisons in rebel cities around it. Could you perhaps have a script spawn for factions like them that gives them a full stack or two when they besiege certain places to help ensure that they conquer the settlement, perhaps removing the stack afterwards if possible? Again, Pontus and Sinope spring to mind as it seems they always spend ages trying to get that town.
Also, perhaps instead of giving the AI cash advances, could there not just be a beginning-of-game script that boosts all AI factions overall by say giving them better infrastructure and population? I would think that having a more robust population and infrastructure base could really help the AI out.
On steppe factions: probably the biggest case to try and port EB fully over to BI (the other being that it seems a lot of forum goers already have BI), since the Sauromatae and Saka would be perfect horde factions and you could thus have their starting units be free Horde units with only a couple regulars.
But all-in-all, I would have to say that just fixing the handouts prolly works just as well, with less effort. And I wonder if anyone else noticed that the Carthies seem to get a bonus for every admiral they have as well as settlement...

[Dayve]

250BC... Still not much action really except for KH... They're really doing well at the moment, big armies in Greece and big armies in Asia Minor... Egypt and Seleukids are going at it as usual throwing large stacks around the Israel area...

[The Celtic Viking]

I feel stupid but where do I put this?

EB\Data\scripts\show_me\

[Ower]

fallen851, I personbly have no problem whit the fightink, but you have to agree that a faction like AS, could not bz in war whit Me (taking the whole Iran from them wes to Susa and Ekbatana), the Ptolies, and the Hay, who were doing quit well for i time, untill the AS crushed their armies whit 2 fullstact of high lvl troops, and still throv full and high stack armies (2-3), of high lvl and elite troops at me, and the ptolies and eaven the Hai a almoust every turn. That's why I suport (and when i have time join) the efor for turnming. Or like Rome, or Sweboz fight a 5 front wor and still send beat all its enemies and have fulstack armies at their whoule border.

[Dayve]

240bc.

Baktria is making nice progress... It's huge. Greece also is making nice progress, it will be interesting to see who wins with Greece and Epeiros, but my money is on greece, they have the most profitable provinces. Egypt and Seleukia are still warring... Egypt will win, Seleukia has been weakened slightly and is being eaten away by the surrounding factions...

In my opinion this money script works quite well. I've had some really tough battles so far, but not too many of them... Which is what i wanted.

[Redmeth]

I believe giving factions who have 16-24 600 or 700 and factions who have more than 24 400 or 500 would stop making the big factions as weak as they seem to be getting after they get large, and maybe 3000 for the slave faction would also work, anyone with me? A better version of this would be needed but the question is who would bless us with the work involved in modifying the script?

[Sheep]

I guess I'm not sure I understand, some people are complaining that a huge empire has lots of stacks, and they get sick of fighting?

[...]

I honestly don't see the problem, it seems to me you guys want to roleplay only to the extent you are winning the entire time. There should be wars where there is lots of fighting and things stalemate, and if you can't beat them, don't fight. Now that Redmeth has taken away the money, he is advancing. Where is the glory and honor in that?

I like a challenge and if I wanted to find a way to cheat I would just auto_win every battle. The problem for me is not the difficulty, but just the tedium. Where is the fun when you fight 5 full-stack battles against the Germans every single turn in the late game as the Romans? In my Baktria campaign, it's almost 230BC and there are currently nine Seleukid stacks on my lands. Nine! Now sure, they are a lot bigger than me and should be able to field more men. And I wouldn't have a problem if they were focusing all of the empire's energy on me. But they aren't -- they are at war with 6 other factions besides me and also have half a dozen full stacks in Egypt, about that many stacks in Asia Minor squashing Pontus and the KH, two or three stacks fighting Parthia, another couple stacks in Armenia, and a couple more stacks fighting the Sabyn on the Arabian Peninsula. I'd love to open up another front but I can only afford three armies and anyway they are already fighting a seven-front war which they are WINNING because they can field three dozen full stacks as the EB script gives them 1200 per turn per city and they have like 30-something cities.

So yes, it is more realistic for a big faction to have more armies than me if I am a smaller faction, but it is also realistic that said big faction would not be fighting on seven fronts and winning. If that were true, then there wouldn't have BEEN a Pontus or an Armenia or a Parthia or a Baktria or a Ptolemaic Egypt or a Makedonia in real life because the Seleukids would have slaughtered them all. The very fact that those factions existed long enough for us to see them represented in this game is evidence of that.

[Sheep]

As you can see there is very little movement until about 230 B.C. which is the magic number. After that things started to heat up pretty fast.

That is also around the time that a lot of the Eleutheroi generals start to die, making their cities easier to conquer.

The Eleutheroi power was the largest issue with my modified script. I gave them too much and it stalled the faction progression.

Yeah, a little too strong maybe. Honestly I don't get my rocks off fighting the Eleutheroi as much as another faction so I don't care too much if they disappear more quickly. Also, since the other factions have trouble with the Eleutheroi but I don't, I end having an empire before they do and that is pretty much game over for them.

BTW, if you care to post your updated code or your entire version of EBBS_SCRIPT, I can host it in the opening post so that people can test it also.

I believe giving factions who have 16-24 600 or 700 and factions who have more than 24 400 or 500 would stop making the big factions as weak as they seem to be getting after they get large, and maybe 3000 for the slave faction would also work, anyone with me? A better version of this would be needed but the question is who would bless us with the work involved in modifying the script?

That is almost exactly what I was thinking. I've updated the first and second posts of this thread with new code.

[Watchman]

Much appreciated, also the second post that can be copy-pasted as tweaking the browser's filters for axfile is a pain in the arse.

Incidentally, that very first entry -

monitor_event CharacterTurnStart FactionType egypt
and AgentType = admiral
and not FactionIsLocal
console_command add_money egypt, 1200
end_monitor

- am I reading it wrong or does it give the AI Qarthies 1200 per every admiral around...?
While I can see how that could be useful for letting the AI maintain proper fleets, as befits one of the greater sea-powers of the period, I can also see how that could contribute to turning them into the Abominable Snowman of Africa and running roughshod over their neighbours by raw finances...

[The Errant]

That is also around the time that a lot of the Eleutheroi generals start to die, making their cities easier to conquer.



Yeah, a little too strong maybe. Honestly I don't get my rocks off fighting the Eleutheroi as much as another faction so I don't care too much if they disappear more quickly. Also, since the other factions have trouble with the Eleutheroi but I don't, I end having an empire before they do and that is pretty much game over for them.

BTW, if you care to post your updated code or your entire version of EBBS_SCRIPT, I can host it in the opening post so that people can test it also.



That is almost exactly what I was thinking. I've updated the first and second posts of this thread with new code.

Sorry. I'm on my second testrun. And with a remodified script. Good news is, I got the Pahlava moving and the Eleutheroi tuned down. Bad news is the Baktrians are expanding like crazy, and cutting off the Pahlava expansion south. Seems like the Baktrians need some serious nerfing.

edit. Don't worry Watchman about the Carthies naval support. Eminos64 new piece of script can put a treasury cap on them. If they keep getting too much mnai we can allways lower the values of the tresury cap so once they reach that magic marker of 100000 mnai or lower they come crashing down 30000 or 40000 mnai. They will still be powerful and able to field good stacks but not overpowered. I lowered the values for the AS and so far they seem to be behaving quite nicely.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

am I reading it wrong or does it give the AI Qarthies 1200 per every admiral around...?
While I can see how that could be useful for letting the AI maintain proper fleets, as befits one of the greater sea-powers of the period, I can also see how that could contribute to turning them into the Abominable Snowman of Africa and running roughshod over their neighbours by raw finances...

Too bad the AI can't 'see' this bonus and know that it is safe to build ships. But yes, that is there since Carthage was such a good sea power, not to cripple them if they ever chose to expands such.

[Sheep]

Much appreciated, also the second post that can be copy-pasted as tweaking the browser's filters for axfile is a pain in the arse.

If you have an easier one, let me know and I'll update it. I just used the one that TheErrant used.

Incidentally, that very first entry -

monitor_event CharacterTurnStart FactionType egypt
and AgentType = admiral
and not FactionIsLocal
console_command add_money egypt, 1200
end_monitor

- am I reading it wrong or does it give the AI Qarthies 1200 per every admiral around...?
While I can see how that could be useful for letting the AI maintain proper fleets, as befits one of the greater sea-powers of the period, I can also see how that could contribute to turning them into the Abominable Snowman of Africa and running roughshod over their neighbours by raw finances...

That is from the original EB script, I just left it in since it didn't seem to result in a massive Carthie expansion.

[Wolfshart]

One thing I did notice on my Romani campaign and an unmodified script is that the Carths naval power seems to be limited by the huge Rebel/pirate naval presence in the Med. Only after I take my own navy and destroy a good portion of the rebel navies does the Carths navy get to do any thing appreciable. Are those powerful rebel navies seeded throughout the Med to hinder the AI or the player? To me it seems like they are limiting the AI to much.

[Dayve]

235


230

[The Errant]

One thing I did notice on my Romani campaign and an unmodified script is that the Carths naval power seems to be limited by the huge Rebel/pirate naval presence in the Med. Only after I take my own navy and destroy a good portion of the rebel navies does the Carths navy get to do any thing appreciable. Are those powerful rebel navies seeded throughout the Med to hinder the AI or the player? To me it seems like they are limiting the AI to much.

The Eeutheroi or rebels are the last unplayable faction in EB. So while they may seem to you just as a collection of different independent territories they are basically an another AI controlled faction. Collectively they control more territory than any other AI faction, so if they get those territories to turn a profit they will have no problem fielding a massive navy and be able to pay the upkeep for it.
What they can build is determined by what faction is listed as the founder of their settlement, and fortunately their naval construction is limited to low-medium end naval units. But such units are often cheap, and can therefore be fielded in a very large number. Same as if you field a couple of stacks of your weakest most inexpensive levy unit.
Add to that the AI is more focused on controlling land based territory often neglecting the naval aspect since it's rewards are not clearly apparent to it. Bottom line. As long as there is a Eleutheroi settlement that can build a naval port, your likely to sea large rebel/pirate navies running around the map, causing you trouble.
On the bright side I actually saw the AI Seleukids field a "Huge Polireme" in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea. A full stack of the best pirate ships can't match that single monster of a ship.

[Redmeth]

What worries me is that factions that start out big (Seleucids, Ptolies) and receive a smaller bonus will have trouble developing their infrastructure and that is not good, I know that for the first 5 years(?) or so the AI gets larger bonuses but maybe for the first 10-20 years everyone should get the 1200 per turn including the big factions and these modified bonuses that depend on size should kick in after they had time to build their infrastructure (mines, ports, roads) and affect the spawning of elite stacks not stopping them from having a proper infrastructure or their ability to train elite troops (high level MICs in most provinces)

[Dayve]

What worries me is that factions that start out big (Seleucids, Ptolies) and receive a smaller bonus will have trouble developing their infrastructure and that is not good, I know that for the first 5 years(?) or so the AI gets larger bonuses but maybe for the first 10-20 years everyone should get the 1200 per turn including the big factions and these modified bonuses that depend on size should kick in after they had time to build their infrastructure (mines, ports, roads) and affect the spawning of elite stacks not stopping them from having a proper infrastructure or their ability to train elite troops (high level MICs in most provinces)

You may be on to something...

Here is 225bc, and Seleukia is getting raped.

And they aren't using lube.

[Wolfshart]

You may be on to something...

Here is 225bc, and Seleukia is getting raped.

And they aren't using lube.

So would there be a way to make it a trigger dependent on year? They would get a big boost the first few decades then decreasing amounts as the years roll by.....

[Sheep]

What worries me is that factions that start out big (Seleucids, Ptolies) and receive a smaller bonus will have trouble developing their infrastructure and that is not good, I know that for the first 5 years(?) or so the AI gets larger bonuses but maybe for the first 10-20 years everyone should get the 1200 per turn including the big factions and these modified bonuses that depend on size should kick in after they had time to build their infrastructure (mines, ports, roads) and affect the spawning of elite stacks not stopping them from having a proper infrastructure or their ability to train elite troops (high level MICs in most provinces)You may be on to something...

Here is 225bc, and Seleukia is getting raped.

And they aren't using lube.

So would there be a way to make it a trigger dependent on year? They would get a big boost the first few decades then decreasing amounts as the years roll by.....

Taking away all the bonuses for the large factions was a mistake. Try the new version of the script out, it gives them more help. I'm already seeing a significant change in the Seleukids. They are able to defend their own lands but don't seem to be the expansionist monsters you see with the unmodified EB script. Granted I have not even finished my first test run but it is 240 and their borders are nearly unchanged - a little smaller in the east, a little larger in the southwest and north to make up for it.

Your idea about year-dependent bonuses is a good one. The EB script already gives extra bonuses to smaller factions for the first 20 turns but that wouldn't apply to the AS.

[Redmeth]

So is this possible, Sheep? Could you give different money bonuses depending on years passed? Another trigger to lower the bonuses to what they are right now (as in the script you posted today or yesterday) would be that if during the say 20 years of added bonuses for infrastructure their treasury would exceed 200k they would start getting only the normal bonuses.
I know a bit about programming but from what I understand the RTW-script language is pretty crappy and you can't really use too many if's and no variables or even % operations...

[Sheep]

So is this possible, Sheep? Could you give different money bonuses depending on years passed? Another trigger to lower the bonuses to what they are right now (as in the script you posted today or yesterday) would be that if during the say 20 years of added bonuses for infrastructure their treasury would exceed 200k they would start getting only the normal bonuses.
I know a bit about programming but from what I understand the RTW-script language is pretty crappy and you can't really use too many if's and no variables or even % operations...

All of this can be done quite easily.

The I_TurnNumber command can be used to specify a certain number of turns (4 turns = 1 year obviously)

The Treasury command can be used to specify a certain amount in the treasury.

If you look at the script file, in Section 4a: Difficult Start Help, you can see how to use these commands.

As an example, try this:

;Rome

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_TurnNumber < 41

console_command add_money seleucid, 1200

end_monitor

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid < 4
and I_TurnNumber > 40

console_command add_money seleucid, 1200

end_monitor

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid < 9
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid > 3
and I_TurnNumber > 40

console_command add_money seleucid, 1000

end_monitor

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid < 16
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid > 8
and I_TurnNumber > 40

console_command add_money seleucid, 800

end_monitor

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid < 25
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid > 15
and I_TurnNumber > 40

console_command add_money seleucid, 600

end_monitor

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid > 25
and I_TurnNumber > 40

console_command add_money seleucid, 300

end_monitor

This code will give them the original 1200mnai bonus for the first 10 years of the game, then change to the stepped bonus after that. You can change the number of turns just by changing the value after I_TurnNumber. You will need to copy and paste this code for each faction. Don't forget to change the faction name in each and every instance it appears.

If you wanted to change it so that the bonuses are dependent on the amount in the treasury, simply change every instance of "I_TurnNumber" to "Treasury" and then change the value to whatever you want (Treasury > 200000 or whatever)

[Gaias]

The above code was what I was looking for, but didn't have a good enough knowledge to make it work. It should allow for greater dynamic gameplay if the code is applied to all factions equally, depending on how well the ai does for each faction. Thank you Sheep for taking the time write it up, as it is much appreaciated.

[Sheep]

The above code was what I was looking for, but didn't have a good enough knowledge to make it work. It should allow for greater dynamic gameplay if the code is applied to all factions equally, depending on how well the ai does for each faction. Thank you Sheep for taking the time write it up, as it is much appreaciated.

No prob, three minutes of work.

Test it and let us know how it goes. Preferably with some pretty pictures

[Dayve]

I've added the new script in... I'll continue to post my screenshots if you like Sheep but i'm not starting again. It's taken me 4 days to get here already.

[Sheep]

Whatever you want. Tell us if you notice a difference.

[Redmeth]

But can't the bonuses depend on both, is this going to work for example? Both the turn number and the treasury.
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_TurnNumber < 41
and Treasury < 200000

console_command add_money seleucid, 1200

end_monitor

If the AI faction is either too old or too rich it will start receiving the stepped bonuses.
EDIT:How do I enter the code in that special code window? What tags do I use?

[Sheep]

But can't the bonuses depend on both, is this going to work for example? Both the turn number and the treasury.
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType seleucid
and not FactionIsLocal
and I_TurnNumber < 41
and Treasury < 200000

console_command add_money seleucid, 1200

end_monitor

If the AI faction is either too old or too rich it will start receiving the stepped bonuses.
EDIT:How do I enter the code in that special code window? What tags do I use?

That will work too. But be aware that if it's less than 10 years in, and their treasury is over 200000, they will receive NO bonus whatsoever with that code.

You can make the special code window using the word CODE in brackets. Or, when you are writing your post, just hit the '#' button above the text window.