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  1. #1
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Maybe things are a bit simpler then that, USA has somewhat more space where these things may occur, I mean it's bigger then all countries in Europe combined. How long has it been since Columbine? Let's not act as if there is a trend of some sort.
    If you want to make that argument you should base it on population and not area. The US is inhabited by 300 million people (plus some illegal immigrants, but Europe has some too so we won't count them)and iirc Europe has roughly 700 million inhabitants. That being said I have heard of a couple of school shootings in Germany since I first got here (last September) so it's definately not as American a phenomenon as people may think. They may be at times far worse in the US, but I can't say that for sure either. Europeans may also hear more about American school shootings as European ones, and I don't think Americans hear much of anything about European ones. But again I have no evidence so it's just a thought.

    My condolences to those affected by this tragedy. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at the college at the time it occurred or to have a loved one that went to VT.
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    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    This is bad enough without it being blamed on violent video games
    From wise men, O Lord, protect us -anon
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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by sapi
    This is bad enough without it being blamed on violent video games
    Hmmm... I'm looking forward to Rockstar's newest game: "Kill Dr. Phill"...



    The bodies of the victims are still warm and the vultures who are in dire need of some media-attention are already popping up...

    Sad, very sad
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    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    @Andres
    It really is.

    The media should be focusing on finding a solutiont that will stop this happening again, not looking for a scapegoat...

    @Adrian
    To blame society in that way is to miss the point.

    Society is to blame in the sense that it provided the means for the shooter to obtain the gun; taught them to shoot it; and failed to react fast enough when the tragedy unfolded.
    Last edited by sapi; 04-17-2007 at 11:41.
    From wise men, O Lord, protect us -anon
    The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions, a statistic -Stalin
    We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into the area -UK military spokesman Major Mike Shearer

  5. #5
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by AndresTheCunning
    The bodies of the victims are still warm and the vultures who are in dire need of some media-attention are already popping up...

    Sad, very sad
    People want to hear reflections, explanations, views on the matter. You can't blame them. And you can't call anyone who disagrees with you a vulture. People have strong feelings about an emotional issue like this and they will push their views forecefully, demand action, accountability, responsibility. They may put the blame in other places than you would wish; that in itself doesn't make them vultures.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by sapi
    This is bad enough without it being blamed on violent video games
    Phil McGraw is not blaming this uniquely on video games. It's a wider criticism of movies and of the glamorization of violence in society as a whole:

    The question really is can we spot them. And the problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you that if these kids are playing video games, where they're on a mass killing spree in a video game, it's glamorized on the big screen, it's become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath or someone suffering from mental illness and add in a dose of rage, the suggestibility is too high. And we're going to have to start dealing with that. We're going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murders of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Phil McGraw is not blaming this uniquely on video games. It's a wider criticism of movies and of the glamorization of violence in society as a whole:

    The question really is can we spot them. And the problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you that if these kids are playing video games, where they're on a mass killing spree in a video game, it's glamorized on the big screen, it's become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath or someone suffering from mental illness and add in a dose of rage, the suggestibility is too high. And we're going to have to start dealing with that. We're going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murders of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.
    1. Adrian II, if i understand you correctly glamorized violence + psychopaths = tragedy. therefore we should curtail glamorized violence.

    if that is so, then one could also argue that romantic relationships + psychopaths = murder/suicide. therefore we should abolish romantic relationships.


    2. or since the night stalker was influenced by ac/dc and the columbine murderers by korn, we should censor music?

    3. japan has at least as much glamorized violence as america yet the violent crime stats are much much lower, so i don't think the issue is the glamorized violence but something else.


    japan has
    Last edited by nokhor; 04-17-2007 at 15:29.
    indeed

  8. #8
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    For giving me insight into the dark underbelly of the American psyche, I'll take Hobbes over Dr. Phil, if you don't mind.

    I'm waiting for a better picture of what the heck happened; too few facts right now. I was stunned last night, however, to hear the chattering heads talking about how vulnerable universities are to "outsiders" and "strangers." What the hell? From the moment this broke in the news it looked like the work of a student. Especially the fact that the shootings began in a closed-access dorm in the a.m., I mean come on, this massacre fits squarely into the school shooting pattern we've seen before.

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Killer identified. Haven't seen this posted yet, so I thought it worth adding.

  10. #10
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Killer identified. Haven't seen this posted yet, so I thought it worth adding.
    From my neck of the woods (Centreville, Fairfax County). His family probably lives ~10 miles from me.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews
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    (Insert innuendo here) Member Balloon Bomber Champion DemonArchangel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    I still don't get why the poor bastard snapped.

    Yea, he was Asian. I think the media's been harping on it, because the crime rate among Asians is generally so low.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by nokhor
    1. Adrian II, if i understand you correctly glamorized violence + psychopaths = tragedy. therefore we should curtail glamorized violence.
    Hello hello, I was just quoting Phil McGraw there. I quoted him in full because someone else had quoted him haphazardly, suggesting that McGraw was blaming this shooting uniquely on video games.
    Which he wasn't.
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Hello hello, I was just quoting Phil McGraw there. I quoted him in full because someone else had quoted him haphazardly, suggesting that McGraw was blaming this shooting uniquely on video games.
    Which he wasn't.
    sorry, i apologize. i just discovered the cuteness that is dana perino. i heretofore, forthwith and henceforth delcare today dana perino day and will respond to nothing else unless dana perino can somehow be tied to it.
    indeed

  14. #14
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by nokhor
    3. japan has at least as much glamorized violence as america yet the violent crime stats are much much lower, so i don't think the issue is the glamorized violence but something else.
    Japan has different problems; violence among school kids there is autodestructive rather than directed against others, but it is a huge issue.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Japan has different problems; violence among school kids there is autodestructive rather than directed against others, but it is a huge issue.
    --> its very much a problem in japan

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    And now, for some more perspective, here is a view from the World Socialist Web Site written after the Columbine shooting.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Meanwhile in the days following the April 20 shootings at Columbine High School a wave of real and imagined violence has swept though school districts throughout the US. Reports of "copy-cat" threats came from every state in the nation, except Vermont. Overwhelmed by worried parents and perplexed by the scale of the threats, school administrators evacuated affected buildings and stepped up security and police patrols. Authorities arrested or suspended students for casual threats or for using words deemed "terroristic," banned trench coats like those worn by the young killers in Colorado, and investigated students' Internet web sites. Officials said they were particularly on alert last Friday, April 30, because it was the anniversary of Hitler's suicide in 1945.

    "It's a kind of hysteria. It has a mind of its own, a face of its own. It has taken on its own personality. I've never experienced it as a professional" for 40 years, said Dale Glynn, principal of Everett High School in Lansing, Michigan, where Monday a student hurled homemade chemical bombs on a 52-acre campus.

    A New Hampshire high school received a threat just hours before the vice president's wife Tippor Gore was scheduled to arrive for a discussion about the Columbine shootings. In the nation's capital thousands of high school students were evacuated last week after an unidentified caller said a bomb had been placed in one of Washington's public high schools. An 11-year-old elementary student in a Washington suburb was arrested after classmates told a teacher he had been spreading rumors about bombs.

    In Brooklyn, New York, five 13-year-old eighth graders were arrested last Wednesday and charged with conspiracy to blow up McKinley Junior High School in Bay Ridge. The boys were overheard by a fellow student discussing a bomb plot and were found to be in possession of a bomb-making manual. In Fairport, New York, near Rochester, police confiscated gunpowder, propane and bomb-making books at the home of a 12-year-old sixth grader that they said was plotting to blow up his middle school.

    In Hillsborough, New Jersey, the district's schools were ordered closed Friday, after students received e-mail threats, reportedly sent by an 11-year-old student, which said: "If we think what happened in Colorado was bad, wait until you see what happens in Hillsborough Middle School on Friday." Near Philadelphia, a 16-year-old was reportedly turned in by his mother after he threatened her with a reference to the Littleton tragedy. Law enforcement officials later discovered a homemade videotape showing the teenager building what appeared to be a bomb.

    In Longwood, Florida, a 13-year-old student at Rock Lake Middle School was arrested Tuesday after reportedly threatening to place a bomb at the school and kill eighth graders who picked on him. A note on a crudely drawn map included the phrase "revenge will be sweet," the Orlando Sentinel reported.

    Pennsylvania officials reported at least 60 bomb scares or other threats at schools; dozens of schools were evacuated in the Detroit area; and at a private school in suburban Oak Lawn, outside of Chicago, a 15-year-old was arrested after telling two girls he was going to kill the principal and a student and plant bombs at the school. An ax, knives, a rifle, shotguns and 150 rounds of ammunition were reportedly found in his home.

    In California, three teenage students were arrested after police raided their homes and found bomb-making ingredients, a hand grenade and a map of their high school. In Wimberley, Texas four eighth-grade students from Danforth Junior High School were charged for allegedly plotting to blow up the school. And in Enid, Oklahoma a pipe bomb was found in a school bathroom.

    Commenting on the wave of copy-cat actions and threats sweeping the nation's schools, Marice Elias, a Rutgers University psychologist who specializes in children, said, this behavior could be "a signal of how disconnected and disaffected kids feel from schools. I think kids are angry at schools ... because they feel schools have no place for them and no concern for them. The only ones who are valued are very smart or very athletic. If you're not at the top of the game, you don't matter."

    One-third of teenagers who responded to a recent CNN/Time poll said they thought an incident similar to the Columbine shootings would be likely to occur in their own schools. One in five students said they knew someone their age who has talked about committing a serious act of violence at their school, such as shooting a student or setting off a bomb.

    The widespread character of these incidents underscores the fact that the alienation and social tensions that have been expressed through the eruption of violence in Colorado and other states is reaching an epidemic level. While US politicians, from President Clinton on down, and the news media have focused on guns, parental responsibility and violence in movies and video games, they are only dealing with the symptoms of a much larger problem. None have addressed the underlying social and political sickness in America which contributes to such tragedies.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Gah...some more news:
    BLACKSBURG, Va. - The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service.
    Also, this bit brought a tear to my eye:
    Virginia Tech University Prof. Liviu Librescu, described as a family man who once did research for NASA, sacrificed his life to save his students in the shooting rampage yesterday.
    ...
    Then the gunfire started coming closer. Librescu, 77, fearlessly braced himself against the door, holding it shut against the gunman in the hall, while students darted to the windows of the second-floor classroom to escape the slaughter, survivors said.

    Mallalieu and most of his classmates hung out of the windows and dropped about 10 feet to bushes and grass below - but Librescu stayed behind to hold off the crazed gunman.
    Apparently, that teacher was a holocaust survivor.

    Oh dear God, what man hath wrought upon ourselves.

    CR
    Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 04-17-2007 at 18:16.
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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  18. #18

    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Um....sources for those alleged 'facts'? Yea, thought not. Felons have not been able to buy guns for decades, and the GOP did not repeal any gun laws, particularly any that made it 'easier' for felons to get guns.
    Ah ...facts ....interesting , so this errrrrr..... "fact" about felons not being able to buy guns , that would be the fact that registered licenced firearms dealers have to do a backround thingy on their customers sort of fact . So rabbit as you are an enthusiastic firearms fan could you enlighten me as to where a criminal could purchase a firearm without having to comply with the backround check ?
    Come to think of it where did those two Columbine nuts buy their guns ?

  19. #19
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Phil McGraw is not blaming this uniquely on video games. It's a wider criticism of movies and of the glamorization of violence in society as a whole
    It could be. However when I pay attention to the motives behind this killings, they're usually moved by desperation, and although games do tend to portray violence, even without reason (GTA series) they also don't portray any character, as far as I know, as a good man because he kills, many times not even the motives are good motives. However I always thought that games should be strictly restricted by ages.

    I can see however, how this occurs more often in the USA at least (sorry I'm not aware of global tragedies). This has happened only one time in my country and never in that scale. I suppose that there's not a single cause for this. First it must be the gun culture existent on the country. Second it has to be a psicological issue of the public mass of adolescent teenagers. I also believe it has something to do with the concept of social justice, in the sense that some people believe that the bad things that are happening to them can be attributed to everyone arround them without discrimination, without criterium, only because they happen to be in their way, perhaps they believe that everyone else is guilty of inaction. Third some believe that dignity is the more important value that humans have and some of them are willing to do anything to defend it, when humiliated they might respond like this. However this is not something exclusive of the USA, I suppose it's not the only country with a gun culture, not the only one with violent games. The adequate cause for this has to be found in another place, another element but I cannot see what's that element. I think an american has to know better...
    Born On The Flames

  20. #20
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    It sounds like he planned it and knew what he was doing.

    I'm doubtful it would have been different if guns had been allowed on campus. Who would carry their gun to class? Guy had body armor anyway.
    A lot of shots will annihilate even someone with body armour. You either hit another body part, or simply stun him by repeatedly hitting the vest, which will most likely still hurt him because of the energy involved.
    Or you just bring bigger guns, RPGs and grenade launchers to get a higher level of security, he won't even be secure in a tank then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    @ Ichigo. The Chicago-Sun Times report certainly vindicates your view that shooters are often bullied, tormented types. The fact that their anger and despair build up over a period of time is said to be a good thing, it means that sometimes a proactive policy will filter them out.
    I posted about that in a thread where Odin told us about the school his kids go to, which apparently resembles a fortress/prison.
    People who do that are usually finished with life, don't see any perspectives for the future and feel like society has abandoned them or "thrown them out" for a reason they may not even know. And like I said in the other thread, I'm speaking from some sort of experience...(please don't shoot me now, I didn't kill anyone and don't plan to, it's just a bad part of my past )

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody
    The Shooter walks down the hall shooting at his victims - a "hero" draws his gun and returns fire - someone further down the hall hears shots and see's the "hero" firing and so draws his gun and shoots the "hero" - the original shooter who was prepared and was wearing a Vest (as he was) would most likely survive and keep going - eventually you would get into the situation where students were shooting students for no other reason than they could hear shooting and were in a state of panic making the situation far worsee
    What we need are clearly autocannon towers which will automatically shoot at anyone carrying a gun. More realistically an armed campus police might help, but they should not end up being the first victims of a potential killer, because a smart one would ambush them first. Though generally stopping to leave people alone, as has been said before, would likely help a lot. A healthy family and social life plus some morals and values are the best things to make someone not do this. I think a lack of two of these already becomes dangerous.

    So we have

    family(have someone to talk to etc, get support here and know there is at least someone who loves you)
    social life(good friends, not being bullied)
    morals(as in don't kill people, some knowledge deep inside about death being a very bad option that doesn't solve anything)

    take two away and you have a potential killer.

    Just a suggestion, thoughts and input appreciated.


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