Virginia Tech shooting

[Sheep]

Frags claims the shooter was an immigrant are no longer unsubstantiated.

Awesome, now this will lead into the immigration debate as well as gun control.

*slaps forehead*

[Scurvy]

Awesome, now this will lead into the immigration debate as well as gun control.

--> not really, even if it did involve an immigrant, it makes very little difference

[Sheep]

--> not really, even if it did involve an immigrant, it makes very little difference

Yeah, in reality, that's true. Sadly most of our media talking heads are quite detached from reality.

[Sir Moody]

its a horrible situation and i seriously hope some good comes out of it and things improve so that it never can happen again

The ninnies who insisted on disarming the students, thinking idiotically that with a stroke of a pen, they magically prevent bad people from carrying guns for nefarious purposes, share some of the blame for setting up this situation.

attitudes like this really scare me i have to say - heres how i think your situation would go down

The Shooter walks down the hall shooting at his victims - a "hero" draws his gun and returns fire - someone further down the hall hears shots and see's the "hero" firing and so draws his gun and shoots the "hero" - the original shooter who was prepared and was wearing a Vest (as he was) would most likely survive and keep going - eventually you would get into the situation where students were shooting students for no other reason than they could hear shooting and were in a state of panic making the situation far worse

the solution isnt to arm everyone but is to arm NO-ONE including the original shooter - if guns are freely available then anyone could be carrying - its probably too late for this tho as the US has had freely available firearms for so long removing them now would be impossible


as to the cause i agree with an earlier poster its a fundamental break down of community that is causing this - we are having the same problem in the UK and it has a corresponding rise in violence

[KafirChobee]

Gun control should be the issue ... immigration is a bogus.

The control of weapons in this country is nil, today as compared with 1999. One can buy any chemicals to build any device of proper inclusion against those they deam inferior, unpatriotic, against their own high values of humanlife (even as they murder them), or for any futuristic imagination that justifies their purchase of WMDs. It is a fact.

Congress, the old one under the Reblicanists, rolled back all the laws they previously imposed (after the attempt on Reagan's life) to protect America - and it shows. Crime has increased upto 30% in some areas (citys') and more prisons have been built than colleges or schools in general. Why? Because anyone, even a felon has access to a wmd under todays laws of "gun uncontrol".

Diverting attention from the need to impose a strict and enforcable rule for the control of weaponry in this country is insain under the present atmosphere of fear projected by the Bushys'.

Still, what the hey - one reaps what they sow. Or, gets what they deserve.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Maybe things are a bit simpler then that, USA has somewhat more space where these things may occur, I mean it's bigger then all countries in Europe combined. How long has it been since Columbine? Let's not act as if there is a trend of some sort.

If you want to make that argument you should base it on population and not area. The US is inhabited by 300 million people (plus some illegal immigrants, but Europe has some too so we won't count them)and iirc Europe has roughly 700 million inhabitants. That being said I have heard of a couple of school shootings in Germany since I first got here (last September) so it's definately not as American a phenomenon as people may think. They may be at times far worse in the US, but I can't say that for sure either. Europeans may also hear more about American school shootings as European ones, and I don't think Americans hear much of anything about European ones. But again I have no evidence so it's just a thought.

My condolences to those affected by this tragedy. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at the college at the time it occurred or to have a loved one that went to VT.

[sapi]

This is bad enough without it being blamed on violent video games

[Andres]

This is bad enough without it being blamed on violent video games

Hmmm... I'm looking forward to Rockstar's newest game: "Kill Dr. Phill"...



The bodies of the victims are still warm and the vultures who are in dire need of some media-attention are already popping up...

Sad, very sad

[Adrian II]

This is bad enough without it being blamed on violent video games

Phil McGraw is not blaming this uniquely on video games. It's a wider criticism of movies and of the glamorization of violence in society as a whole:

The question really is can we spot them. And the problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you that if these kids are playing video games, where they're on a mass killing spree in a video game, it's glamorized on the big screen, it's become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath or someone suffering from mental illness and add in a dose of rage, the suggestibility is too high. And we're going to have to start dealing with that. We're going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murders of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.

[sapi]

@Andres
It really is.

The media should be focusing on finding a solutiont that will stop this happening again, not looking for a scapegoat...

@Adrian
To blame society in that way is to miss the point.

Society is to blame in the sense that it provided the means for the shooter to obtain the gun; taught them to shoot it; and failed to react fast enough when the tragedy unfolded.

[Adrian II]

The bodies of the victims are still warm and the vultures who are in dire need of some media-attention are already popping up...

Sad, very sad

People want to hear reflections, explanations, views on the matter. You can't blame them. And you can't call anyone who disagrees with you a vulture. People have strong feelings about an emotional issue like this and they will push their views forecefully, demand action, accountability, responsibility. They may put the blame in other places than you would wish; that in itself doesn't make them vultures.

[Husar]

It sounds like he planned it and knew what he was doing.

I'm doubtful it would have been different if guns had been allowed on campus. Who would carry their gun to class? Guy had body armor anyway.

A lot of shots will annihilate even someone with body armour. You either hit another body part, or simply stun him by repeatedly hitting the vest, which will most likely still hurt him because of the energy involved.
Or you just bring bigger guns, RPGs and grenade launchers to get a higher level of security, he won't even be secure in a tank then.

@ Ichigo. The Chicago-Sun Times report certainly vindicates your view that shooters are often bullied, tormented types. The fact that their anger and despair build up over a period of time is said to be a good thing, it means that sometimes a proactive policy will filter them out.

I posted about that in a thread where Odin told us about the school his kids go to, which apparently resembles a fortress/prison.
People who do that are usually finished with life, don't see any perspectives for the future and feel like society has abandoned them or "thrown them out" for a reason they may not even know. And like I said in the other thread, I'm speaking from some sort of experience...(please don't shoot me now, I didn't kill anyone and don't plan to, it's just a bad part of my past )

The Shooter walks down the hall shooting at his victims - a "hero" draws his gun and returns fire - someone further down the hall hears shots and see's the "hero" firing and so draws his gun and shoots the "hero" - the original shooter who was prepared and was wearing a Vest (as he was) would most likely survive and keep going - eventually you would get into the situation where students were shooting students for no other reason than they could hear shooting and were in a state of panic making the situation far worsee

What we need are clearly autocannon towers which will automatically shoot at anyone carrying a gun. More realistically an armed campus police might help, but they should not end up being the first victims of a potential killer, because a smart one would ambush them first. Though generally stopping to leave people alone, as has been said before, would likely help a lot. A healthy family and social life plus some morals and values are the best things to make someone not do this. I think a lack of two of these already becomes dangerous.

So we have

family(have someone to talk to etc, get support here and know there is at least someone who loves you)
social life(good friends, not being bullied)
morals(as in don't kill people, some knowledge deep inside about death being a very bad option that doesn't solve anything)

take two away and you have a potential killer.

Just a suggestion, thoughts and input appreciated.

[Adrian II]

You finished with an interesting point. The potential impact of a more Hobbesian character (I assume from your post that you are referencing the Hobbesian state of nature and not the social compact in response to it) to our culture on such events would be pretty clear.

In the first instance, I propose that we let Thomas Hobbes himself answer the point:

In the second place, I observe the diseases of a Commonwealth that proceed from the poison of seditious doctrines, whereof one is that every private man is judge of good and evil actions. This is true in the condition of mere nature, where there are no civil laws; and also under civil government in such cases as are not determined by the law. But otherwise, it is manifest that the measure of good and evil actions is the civil law; and the judge the legislator, who is always representative of the Commonwealth. From this false doctrine, men are disposed to debate with themselves and dispute the commands of the Commonwealth, and afterwards to obey or disobey them as in their private judgments they shall think fit; whereby the Commonwealth is distracted and weakened.

Leviathan, Chapther XXIX

[Bijo]

The Secret Service, at least the protective detail, spends a lot of time studying whack-job shooters. They are tasked with preventing such killings in the case of our key political executives. They keep working to develop profiles, insights -- anything that will let them learn how they can maybe stop such an attack on their charges.

Incidents like Squeaky Fromme must cost those folks a lot of sleep.

Eh-- Seamus, it was me you quoted, not Rory (as you wrote him as quoted above it).

Nevertheless....
The point made in that .PDF was that most of these kids carefully plan these attacks with some motive and purpose in mind, ruthlessly cold and efficiently acted out. It doesn't necessarily have to be about wackos killing people.

But if the Secret Service is tasked with security detail in the case of key political figures, why study these "kids who do shootings at an education facility?" Still sounds suspicious.

And also suspicious in the current case is the fact that there were already people killed, and nothing happened. VERY SUSPICIOUS.

And you know what's also suspicious? When I checked the news it was as if those interviewed -- students -- hardly felt a thing, even though it was on their place, or when they were close to it, etc. They were so calm (and almost logical) about it.

In any case, I'm curious as to what caused the supposed Asian suspect to hit the place. We need the hard facts, and we need them now.

:|

[Sir Moody]

A lot of shots will annihilate even someone with body armour. You either hit another body part, or simply stun him by repeatedly hitting the vest, which will most likely still hurt him because of the energy involved.
Or you just bring bigger guns, RPGs and grenade launchers to get a higher level of security, he won't even be secure in a tank then.

actually not quite true - there was a case of a bank robbery some time ago (mid 90's i think) where the police responded - the gang were armoured in high quality full balsitic suits (the kind bomb disposal guys wear). The police were unable to injure any of the gang members who casually strolled, through a hail of pistol and shotgun rounds, to their car while spraying the police with drum fed ak47's - one even stoped while under fire to reload...

The police were forced to ditch their sidearms and shotguns and raid a local gunstore where they borrowed a load of m16's which were finally able to breach the armour and bring the event to a close - theres a video of the event somewhere ill see if i can dig it up - the incedent only proves against small arms (which is all these kids could carry) a well prepared attacker is next to immune

What we need are clearly autocannon towers which will automatically shoot at anyone carrying a gun. More realistically an armed campus police might help, but they should not end up being the first victims of a potential killer, because a smart one would ambush them first. Though generally stopping to leave people alone, as has been said before, would likely help a lot. A healthy family and social life plus some morals and values are the best things to make someone not do this. I think a lack of two of these already becomes dangerous.

i agree here an armed campus police would have drastically improved the situation and im a little shocked there wasnt one already


Edit

i was unable to find the video in question but i did find another incident where the police had a very hard time taking the suspects down because of heavy body armour - http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html

[Bijo]

nvm. please delete.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In any case, I'm curious as to what caused the supposed Asian suspect to hit the place. We need the hard facts, and we need them now.
:|

This is not an episode of CSI. We will not have a firm answer for days -- the legwork alone required necessitates this. It is possible we will never know the motivations behind this attack. I too, would like to know, now, what is behind all this -- but the "now" part of that is impossible and bits and pieces of info -- un-analyzed -- can create more problems than answers.

Note to all:

We create bureacracies so that we may enjoy the stability they generate. This allows us to develop routines, go about our normal days etc. When something comes out of left field, we then yell at these same bureacracies for failing to respond instantaneously with the decisions we think should have been made or the answers we want.

Please, consider this point as you evaluate this, and other, events.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

USA needs better laws.I think the access to weapons should be more harder.So many people died there and even good teachers.

[Shahed]

It is sick how the media is on and on about the guy being asian.

Do they ever say WHITE man shoots... ?

They intend to flare race relations. They never say anything about white, just when the criminal is black, hispanic, asian etc... you'd think all the crime in America is perpetuated by foreigners.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

It is sick how the media is on and on about the guy being asian.

Do they ever say WHITE man shoots... ?

They intend to flare race relations. They never say anything about white, just when the criminal is black, hispanic, asian etc... you'd think all the crime in America is perpetuated by foreigners.

You are right and they think that USA is the greatest country.

[Ser Clegane]

and they think that USA is the greatest country.

Don't start any flame-baiting here

[nokhor]

Phil McGraw is not blaming this uniquely on video games. It's a wider criticism of movies and of the glamorization of violence in society as a whole:

The question really is can we spot them. And the problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you that if these kids are playing video games, where they're on a mass killing spree in a video game, it's glamorized on the big screen, it's become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath or someone suffering from mental illness and add in a dose of rage, the suggestibility is too high. And we're going to have to start dealing with that. We're going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murders of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.

1. Adrian II, if i understand you correctly glamorized violence + psychopaths = tragedy. therefore we should curtail glamorized violence.

if that is so, then one could also argue that romantic relationships + psychopaths = murder/suicide. therefore we should abolish romantic relationships.


2. or since the night stalker was influenced by ac/dc and the columbine murderers by korn, we should censor music?

3. japan has at least as much glamorized violence as america yet the violent crime stats are much much lower, so i don't think the issue is the glamorized violence but something else.


japan has

[Lemur]

For giving me insight into the dark underbelly of the American psyche, I'll take Hobbes over Dr. Phil, if you don't mind.

I'm waiting for a better picture of what the heck happened; too few facts right now. I was stunned last night, however, to hear the chattering heads talking about how vulnerable universities are to "outsiders" and "strangers." What the hell? From the moment this broke in the news it looked like the work of a student. Especially the fact that the shootings began in a closed-access dorm in the a.m., I mean come on, this massacre fits squarely into the school shooting pattern we've seen before.

[Lemur]

Killer identified. Haven't seen this posted yet, so I thought it worth adding.

[DemonArchangel]

I still don't get why the poor bastard snapped.

Yea, he was Asian. I think the media's been harping on it, because the crime rate among Asians is generally so low.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Measures must be taken to prevent further tragedies of this nature .
Stop school shootings , ban schools .

Banning Guns won't help. In Japan in 2001, a man stab 8 kids WITH A KNIFE

if you going to be like the Brits, ban knives then.

[Vuk]

Need I point out that if some of those other students or the professors had been carrying firearms, that wacko would have hit the floor before he could anything.

If you have thousands of normal people in an area, and one or two wackos who would like to kill people, and the no one is armed, then the wackos will just illegally get guns (which is made a lot easier by gun control as it hugely boost black market sales of guns) and blast away 30+ of the normal people.
If they are all armed, either the wackos would never dare to try anything, or they would be cut down doing so. Wackos can always get guns to harm people with, and they always will be able to. The question is: do we want to respect normal peoples 2nd Amendment Constitutional Right and allow them to defend themselved? Tell you what, if I had a gun and I was in one of those classes, that guy wouldn't have taken another step after he opened the door!

lol, I think I'll just go away and not check this for a day now, see what rabid leftist taunts (or hey! maybe even some intellegent conversation) have popped up ;).

[Vuk]

It is sick how the media is on and on about the guy being asian.

Do they ever say WHITE man shoots... ?

They intend to flare race relations. They never say anything about white, just when the criminal is black, hispanic, asian etc... you'd think all the crime in America is perpetuated by foreigners.

Actually yes. They always say when it is a white criminal. They USUALLY (this is an exception) do not say when it is another race, as they are afraid of being racist. Before you ask, no. I do not have any statistics on that, but simply speak from my own experience (which is probably more extensive then anyone's here).
I believe that they are stressing that he is asian because there was a lot of concerns (due to bomb threats made earlier and a link to a turkish man) that he was a muslim terrorist. I think that they think that ( ) letting people know he is asian will easy the public.

That is my theory at least.


Vuk

[Adrian II]

1. Adrian II, if i understand you correctly glamorized violence + psychopaths = tragedy. therefore we should curtail glamorized violence.

Hello hello, I was just quoting Phil McGraw there. I quoted him in full because someone else had quoted him haphazardly, suggesting that McGraw was blaming this shooting uniquely on video games.
Which he wasn't.

[drone]

Killer identified. Haven't seen this posted yet, so I thought it worth adding.

From my neck of the woods (Centreville, Fairfax County). His family probably lives ~10 miles from me.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews