Virginia Tech shooting

[Goofball]

Frags claims the shooter was an immigrant are no longer unsubstantiated.

I'm glad we got to the bottom of that. I think now that we can safely say:

Guns don't kill people.

Immigrants kill people.

I'm calling the NRA right now to order my new bumper sticker.

[Crazed Rabbit]

One can buy any chemicals to build any device of proper inclusion against those they deam inferior, unpatriotic, against their own high values of humanlife (even as they murder them), or for any futuristic imagination that justifies their purchase of WMDs. It is a fact.

No, it's BS. Hobbyist rocket builders are having a harder time getting material for their small rockets because of increased regulations on explosives.

Crime has increased upto 30% in some areas (citys') and more prisons have been built than colleges or schools in general. Why? Because anyone, even a felon has access to a wmd under todays laws of "gun uncontrol".

Um....sources for those alleged 'facts'? Yea, thought not. Felons have not been able to buy guns for decades, and the GOP did not repeal any gun laws, particularly any that made it 'easier' for felons to get guns.

Sir Moody - if you're trying to argue against my position please use facts, not some hypothetical scenario. I grow tired of gun control advocates making up these hypothetical situations that have no basis in reality. It's silly to think that somehow a student is going to be able to not see the attacking gunman, and will instead attack someone who drew their gun AFTER the shooting had started.

And I think this campus - like most in the US - already has armed police.

I saw a list in Der Speigel of Euro press articles commenting on this, and tought I'd respond to clear some things up for our European friends:

British daily The Independent writes:

Despite the opposition of every police force in the land [not true at all], Congress in 2004 allowed to lapse a 10-year federal ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, a particular favorite of violent criminals [again, not true at all. The weapons banned by this bill accounted for perhaps 1% of all firearms crime. Also, this bill would not have effected this shooting in any way].

The Times of London writes:

The National Rifle Association's (NRA) response is predictable too [a statement of condolence not mentioning gun politics at all, unlike the brady bunch?]. They will point out that events such as this are not carried out by a rifle-wielding member of a weekend militia. There is no doubt that access to rapid-action shotguns makes these events even more destructive but as we have seen with suicide bombers [um...I'll chalk this one up to bad info. But we've had these scary 'rapid action shotguns' for 100+ years, and few sprees use them]

German daily Bild writes:

"Now we will probably begin discussing the overly lax gun laws in the United States. There, buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license [WTF? Do they do no research? This is completely false].

Etc, and many other assorted stupid things blaming the NRA, guns, American society.

CR

[Ser Clegane]

[WTF? Do they do no research? This is completely false].

To answer your question: No they do not do any research and if so they often do it very sloppily or just choose to ignore the results of the research (if the results are not dramatic enough).

It is not unusual that BILD (often knowingly) reports false "facts" (now that is an oxymoron ) (NB there is actually a whole website dedicated to pointing out all the junk that BILD reports - quite funny, too bad that it is only available in German).

BILD is a tabloid newspaper that usually goes for the shock effect - please do not consider it to be exemplary for the German press (although there are unfortunately too many people who use it as an actual source for news, so I am sorry to tell you that a number of Germans will actually form their opinions based on what this "newspaper" writes)

End of rant

[Goofball]

Etc, and many other assorted stupid things blaming the NRA, guns, American society.

CR

Wellllll.....

The blame for incidents like this pretty much has to fall on some combination including one or more of those factors, n'est-ce pas?

[drone]

British daily The Independent writes:

Despite the opposition of every police force in the land [not true at all], Congress in 2004 allowed to lapse a 10-year federal ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, a particular favorite of violent criminals [again, not true at all. The weapons banned by this bill accounted for perhaps 1% of all firearms crime. Also, this bill would not have effected this shooting in any way].

Just to clarify: the ban also included magazines holding more than 10 bullets. We don't know the details here, but most 9mm pistols are designed for 15+. Probably wouldn't have helped much here though (and you could always buy pre-ban mags).

The laws in this country are fine, the enforcement is the problem.

[nokhor]

Hello hello, I was just quoting Phil McGraw there. I quoted him in full because someone else had quoted him haphazardly, suggesting that McGraw was blaming this shooting uniquely on video games.
Which he wasn't.

sorry, i apologize. i just discovered the cuteness that is dana perino. i heretofore, forthwith and henceforth delcare today dana perino day and will respond to nothing else unless dana perino can somehow be tied to it.

[Crazed Rabbit]

That's good to hear, Ser Clegane.

The blame for incidents like this pretty much has to fall on some combination including one or more of those factors, n'est-ce pas?

I tend to blame the shooter; he who is responsible for this, he who pulled the triggers.

Now, I think society could help by looking for desperate individuals and trying to help them.

But the greatest (in number of dead) attack upon a school in the US involved, firearm wise, only one rifle bullet. Also, consider that back in the 1950s kids could bring their guns to school for rifle team or hunting after school - there were many more guns in schools, and it wasn't until the gun free zone was passed (early 1990s I believe) that school shootings really took off.

Crazed Rabbit

[Sir Moody]

Sir Moody - if you're trying to argue against my position please use facts, not some hypothetical scenario. I grow tired of gun control advocates making up these hypothetical situations that have no basis in reality. It's silly to think that somehow a student is going to be able to not see the attacking gunman, and will instead attack someone who drew their gun AFTER the shooting had started.

if i had the time to go dig up some facts im sure icould - i dont i was stating my opinion on the matter crazed and im sorry gun nuts really scare me - the only people i want to have a tool purpsofully designed to kill with no other purpose is those whos job it is to protect me ie soldiers and the police and no amount of stat tweaking or carefully balenced "studies" is going to change my opinion

[Scurvy]

Sir Moody - if you're trying to argue against my position please use facts, not some hypothetical scenario. I grow tired of gun control advocates making up these hypothetical situations that have no basis in reality.

Pro-gun people are just as guilty of this....

It's silly to think that somehow a student is going to be able to not see the attacking gunman, and will instead attack someone who drew their gun AFTER the shooting had started.

really? --> there are many plausible scenario's (that one isn't). smoke, noise, panic, especially if the student was disorientated or unused to using a gun, --> when talking of such scenario's there are many variables etc.

I agree that scenario's don;t really achieve much when talking of guns, but its equally uncertain either way, ie. a student having a gun may have been able to stop the shooting, but equally a student having a gun could have made it worse... is a bit pointless...

the only people i want to have a tool purpsofully designed to kill with no other purpose is those whos job it is to protect me ie soldiers and the police

I'm not sure i trust the police with guns....

[Crazed Rabbit]

Sir Moody, I think you'd realize all us 'gun nuts' in the USA are very nice people. We just enjoy shooting firearms. We're not crazy, we're not unbalanced.

I would hope you don't form an opinion on people you've never met based on sensationalist articles in your press.

And if firearms have only one purpose - to kill people - then almost all of them are defective. But such a tool is what you want if you're being attacked with deadly force, isn't it?

EDIT: Note that the previous 'record' for a school shooting, way back in 1966, was kept lower than it might have been by ordinary citizens shooting back at the killer with their rifles.

CR

[Adrian II]

3. japan has at least as much glamorized violence as america yet the violent crime stats are much much lower, so i don't think the issue is the glamorized violence but something else.

Japan has different problems; violence among school kids there is autodestructive rather than directed against others, but it is a huge issue.

[Scurvy]

Japan has different problems; violence among school kids there is autodestructive rather than directed against others, but it is a huge issue.

--> its very much a problem in japan

[Adrian II]

And now, for some more perspective, here is a view from the World Socialist Web Site written after the Columbine shooting.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Meanwhile in the days following the April 20 shootings at Columbine High School a wave of real and imagined violence has swept though school districts throughout the US. Reports of "copy-cat" threats came from every state in the nation, except Vermont. Overwhelmed by worried parents and perplexed by the scale of the threats, school administrators evacuated affected buildings and stepped up security and police patrols. Authorities arrested or suspended students for casual threats or for using words deemed "terroristic," banned trench coats like those worn by the young killers in Colorado, and investigated students' Internet web sites. Officials said they were particularly on alert last Friday, April 30, because it was the anniversary of Hitler's suicide in 1945.

"It's a kind of hysteria. It has a mind of its own, a face of its own. It has taken on its own personality. I've never experienced it as a professional" for 40 years, said Dale Glynn, principal of Everett High School in Lansing, Michigan, where Monday a student hurled homemade chemical bombs on a 52-acre campus.

A New Hampshire high school received a threat just hours before the vice president's wife Tippor Gore was scheduled to arrive for a discussion about the Columbine shootings. In the nation's capital thousands of high school students were evacuated last week after an unidentified caller said a bomb had been placed in one of Washington's public high schools. An 11-year-old elementary student in a Washington suburb was arrested after classmates told a teacher he had been spreading rumors about bombs.

In Brooklyn, New York, five 13-year-old eighth graders were arrested last Wednesday and charged with conspiracy to blow up McKinley Junior High School in Bay Ridge. The boys were overheard by a fellow student discussing a bomb plot and were found to be in possession of a bomb-making manual. In Fairport, New York, near Rochester, police confiscated gunpowder, propane and bomb-making books at the home of a 12-year-old sixth grader that they said was plotting to blow up his middle school.

In Hillsborough, New Jersey, the district's schools were ordered closed Friday, after students received e-mail threats, reportedly sent by an 11-year-old student, which said: "If we think what happened in Colorado was bad, wait until you see what happens in Hillsborough Middle School on Friday." Near Philadelphia, a 16-year-old was reportedly turned in by his mother after he threatened her with a reference to the Littleton tragedy. Law enforcement officials later discovered a homemade videotape showing the teenager building what appeared to be a bomb.

In Longwood, Florida, a 13-year-old student at Rock Lake Middle School was arrested Tuesday after reportedly threatening to place a bomb at the school and kill eighth graders who picked on him. A note on a crudely drawn map included the phrase "revenge will be sweet," the Orlando Sentinel reported.

Pennsylvania officials reported at least 60 bomb scares or other threats at schools; dozens of schools were evacuated in the Detroit area; and at a private school in suburban Oak Lawn, outside of Chicago, a 15-year-old was arrested after telling two girls he was going to kill the principal and a student and plant bombs at the school. An ax, knives, a rifle, shotguns and 150 rounds of ammunition were reportedly found in his home.

In California, three teenage students were arrested after police raided their homes and found bomb-making ingredients, a hand grenade and a map of their high school. In Wimberley, Texas four eighth-grade students from Danforth Junior High School were charged for allegedly plotting to blow up the school. And in Enid, Oklahoma a pipe bomb was found in a school bathroom.

Commenting on the wave of copy-cat actions and threats sweeping the nation's schools, Marice Elias, a Rutgers University psychologist who specializes in children, said, this behavior could be "a signal of how disconnected and disaffected kids feel from schools. I think kids are angry at schools ... because they feel schools have no place for them and no concern for them. The only ones who are valued are very smart or very athletic. If you're not at the top of the game, you don't matter."

One-third of teenagers who responded to a recent CNN/Time poll said they thought an incident similar to the Columbine shootings would be likely to occur in their own schools. One in five students said they knew someone their age who has talked about committing a serious act of violence at their school, such as shooting a student or setting off a bomb.

The widespread character of these incidents underscores the fact that the alienation and social tensions that have been expressed through the eruption of violence in Colorado and other states is reaching an epidemic level. While US politicians, from President Clinton on down, and the news media have focused on guns, parental responsibility and violence in movies and video games, they are only dealing with the symptoms of a much larger problem. None have addressed the underlying social and political sickness in America which contributes to such tragedies.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Gah...some more news:

BLACKSBURG, Va. - The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service.

Also, this bit brought a tear to my eye:

Virginia Tech University Prof. Liviu Librescu, described as a family man who once did research for NASA, sacrificed his life to save his students in the shooting rampage yesterday.
...
Then the gunfire started coming closer. Librescu, 77, fearlessly braced himself against the door, holding it shut against the gunman in the hall, while students darted to the windows of the second-floor classroom to escape the slaughter, survivors said.

Mallalieu and most of his classmates hung out of the windows and dropped about 10 feet to bushes and grass below - but Librescu stayed behind to hold off the crazed gunman.

Apparently, that teacher was a holocaust survivor.

Oh dear God, what man hath wrought upon ourselves.

CR

[Tribesman]

Um....sources for those alleged 'facts'? Yea, thought not. Felons have not been able to buy guns for decades, and the GOP did not repeal any gun laws, particularly any that made it 'easier' for felons to get guns.

Ah ...facts ....interesting , so this errrrrr..... "fact" about felons not being able to buy guns , that would be the fact that registered licenced firearms dealers have to do a backround thingy on their customers sort of fact . So rabbit as you are an enthusiastic firearms fan could you enlighten me as to where a criminal could purchase a firearm without having to comply with the backround check ?
Come to think of it where did those two Columbine nuts buy their guns ?

[rory_20_uk]

In case future definitions of Heroism are required, that teacher is by any standards a hero. He gave his life so others might live by concious action.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Felons could - not legally - buy from people other than licensed dealers without background checks. But that's the same as it's always been, nothing has changed as Mr. Chobee suggested.

CR

[Pannonian]

Apparently, that teacher was a holocaust survivor.

Oh dear God, what man hath wrought upon ourselves.

CR

What Hitler couldn't do, this Korean guy could. The shooter's family had better make a damn good show of remorse, else I hope the press delves deep into their family life in revenge. If you're not going to say sorry and show that you're sorry, let the press do all they can to show how you've produced this monster of a son.

[Adrian II]

If you're not going to say sorry and show that you're sorry, let the press do all they can to show how you've produced this monster of a son.

So the family produced this monster? How exactly?

[Tribesman]

Felons could - not legally - buy from people other than licensed dealers without background checks. But that's the same as it's always been, nothing has changed as Mr. Chobee suggested.

Yep so legally they cannot go along to an arms fair and buy a weapon from an unlicenced dealer who will not do a backround check , neither can they legally buy a weapon through a classified ad from an individual who is not a licensed dealer and doesn't do a backround check .
Its a good thing criminals are very law abiding otherwise it would be ridiculously easy for them to buy guns .

[rory_20_uk]

First off, I thought that many Americans pretend to be Christian. Possibly the power of forgiveness?

Then As Adrian rightly mentions: possibly the family might not be aware of what their on was going to do, and you are jumping to conclusions faster than a Tabloid newspaper?

There's a good chance the family have nothing to say sorry for. Oh, and they've also lost a son who has probably done something that they find as horrific as everyone else.

What has Hitler got to do with anything?

Best keep the poisonous rants to yourself, eh?

[Husar]

Now, I think society could help by looking for desperate individuals and trying to help them.

I think CR deserves a cookie, making this a gun debate is pretty pointless, we have had school shootings here in Europe even though guns are banned here.

The problem is that students are desperate because they have noone to help them ease their problems, rather there are a lot of people who enjoy putting more weight onto their poor souls, not realizing how destructive they really are.
IMO this has to do with a lack of morals. Older people were always taught to treat others with respect etc, but nowadays morals and respect are constantly vanishing among young kids, they don't even respect the weaker teachers anymore, they're sometimes like carnivores who will bully against everybody who is weaker. a school shooting is like the counterstrike of the weaker people. I just hope I will be able to raise my kids with some morals and a strong mind once I have some and if anyone bullies them I am going to open the gates of my personal hell and bring down whatever is inside upon the ones responsible(I don't really have an idea what that means, but I'm not going to tolerate it, also not if my own kids should start bullying others)

Let me repeat, I was thinking of doing something like this myself many years ago...

[Goofball]

What Hitler couldn't do, this Korean guy could. The shooter's family had better make a damn good show of remorse, else I hope the press delves deep into their family life in revenge. If you're not going to say sorry and show that you're sorry, let the press do all they can to show how you've produced this monster of a son.

Better yet, we should shoot the guy's family in retribution.

[KukriKhan]

Page 4 reminder announcement:

Keep it to the topic, not the poster.

Kindly carry on.

[Sir Moody]

Sir Moody, I think you'd realize all us 'gun nuts' in the USA are very nice people. We just enjoy shooting firearms. We're not crazy, we're not unbalanced.

I would hope you don't form an opinion on people you've never met based on sensationalist articles in your press.

And if firearms have only one purpose - to kill people - then almost all of them are defective. But such a tool is what you want if you're being attacked with deadly force, isn't it?

EDIT: Note that the previous 'record' for a school shooting, way back in 1966, was kept lower than it might have been by ordinary citizens shooting back at the killer with their rifles.

CR

did i say all americans were gun nuts? did i even put a country to my opinion? no i did not.

I dont read newspapers and i take any online article with a severe pinch of salt those are MY opinions not some regurgitated rubish taken from someone else

erm crazed do you even read your own posts? "Guns arnt designed to kill things sir - because i said so" guns ARE designed to kill people thats IS their only function - they may not do it in every case but the design is sound

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."

I think the solution is to take things like this more seriously. Even if you miraculously removed all guns from America, someone who goes crazy will still kill people. He may only be able to kill 8 or 9 instead of 32 but that's still a big deal. Explosives would probably be used (as in the worst school killings). Guns are not the issue. We have more school shootings in America because we have more guns, but you can't claim that we have more killers because we have no guns.

Banning something like violent movies just because they affect psychopaths is irrational.

* Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States; July 26, 1764
* Bath School disaster - Bath, Michigan, United States; May 18, 1927
* Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, United States; September 15, 1959

1764? 1927? The 1927 one is the worst killing. I don't think violent movies had anything to do with anything there.

[Pannonian]

First off, I thought that many Americans pretend to be Christian. Possibly the power of forgiveness?

Then As Adrian rightly mentions: possibly the family might not be aware of what their on was going to do, and you are jumping to conclusions faster than a Tabloid newspaper?

There's a good chance the family have nothing to say sorry for. Oh, and they've also lost a son who has probably done something that they find as horrific as everyone else.

What has Hitler got to do with anything?

Best keep the poisonous rants to yourself, eh?

It was my impression that families (Asian ones anyway) are supposed to be responsible for their issue. If they don't hold themselves responsible for him, then let the press do it for them. If there's a screwy family that led to this ill-produced scion, let the press uncover it. If the problems are deeper rooted as in the massively dysfunctional Japanese society, let the press discuss that as well. But this is one of those cases where vengeance and constructive investigation go hand in hand.

Page 4 reminder announcement:

Keep it to the topic, not the poster.

Kindly carry on.

Sorry about my rather savage post, but the harming of Holocaust survivors is one of the few issues to make me really react - another related one being exploitation of the Holocaust that cheapens its memory.

[drone]

If the problems are deeper rooted as in the massively dysfunctional Japanese society, let the press discuss that as well.

He's a South Korean immigrant, not Japanese.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yep so legally they cannot go along to an arms fair and buy a weapon from an unlicenced dealer who will not do a backround check , neither can they legally buy a weapon through a classified ad from an individual who is not a licensed dealer and doesn't do a backround check .
Its a good thing criminals are very law abiding otherwise it would be ridiculously easy for them to buy guns .

Congrats, you've highlighted the need for enforcement of our existing laws.

First off, I thought that many Americans pretend to be are Christian.

Fixed.

erm crazed do you even read your own posts? "Guns arnt designed to kill things sir - because i said so" guns ARE designed to kill people thats IS their only function - they may not do it in every case but the design is sound

Indeed I do, though I wonder if you did:

And if firearms have only one purpose - to kill people - then almost all of them are defective. But such a tool is what you want if you're being attacked with deadly force, isn't it?

Are you familiar with trap shotguns, hunting shotguns, hunting rifles, target pistols, .22 rifles, and a plethora of others clearly not designed to kill people?

I think CR deserves a cookie,

Don't mind if I do:


Crazed Rabbit

[Pannonian]

He's a South Korean immigrant, not Japanese.

I was using Japanese society as an example of how the roots may go back further than any individual or family. If the investigations of those various incidents hadn't looked at the family, and at the wider society as a whole, would people be as aware of the depth of the problem?

This guy's family should be looking at themselves and asking how he came to be like this, and the deceased's families deserve to know the answers. The press in its various guises can serve as both carrot and stick with which to find answers to the question "Why?". If the family isn't inclined to go public with the results, IMHO an incident of this kind and severity gives the press the right to look for the answers themselves. And if this is an intrusion into their family's privacy - tough cheese.