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  1. #1
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Pannonian,

    No one has responded to your position by arguing that an investigation shouldn't be made. Clearly the more information we can bring in the better off we'll be. The problem is the harsh vitriol you are exhibiting against individuals who have done nothing wrong that we know of. For one thing, I don't believe vengeance is of any value period. For another, why should vengeance against a criminal be taken against his parents? They did not shoot anyone. There is no evidence to suggest they influenced their son's shooting. Why should they be punished for his crimes?

    I appreciate your intense reaction to the killing of a holocaust survivor and recognize that may be responsible for your seemingly irrational response. It seems highly doubtful that this had any bearing on the professor's killing. The killer didn't single him out, and may not have even been aware he was a holocaust survivor. This certainly has nothing to do with the parents. Be kind, and give the poor people the benefit of the doubt. A thorough investigation is important, but condemning people without any such investigation being made is not helpful.

    Ajax

    "I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
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  2. #2
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Now, another reminder:

    If you're a regular poster or reader here, you've seen what happens among the great minds here, when event details become slim: we start in on each other's words.

    This usually starts happening about page 3 and post #75, or so.

    I urge all to resist that natural urge to try to draw conclusions before enough details are available, AND the other natural reaction to frustration (at the lack of detail) to strike out at the handiest target - our fellow posters.

    Sorry for the length of this announcement, and its distraction.

    Please continue, civilly.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  3. #3
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Well, it hasn't taken long for various loonbats to grab onto this event and fit it into their agenda. I see the Westboro Baptist Church plans to picket the funerals. "Jerks" doesn't quite do them justice. Also, Jack Thompson has declared that violent video games are to blame. Note that he came to this conclusion before anyone knew the identity of the shooter.

    Not to mention how pro- and anti-gun folks (including some of our own) have leaped in to tell us how this tragedy reinforces their positions.

    I guess it's natural to look for meaning in something this nasty. Personally, I'm still adopting a wait and see mode.
    Last edited by Lemur; 04-17-2007 at 20:39.

  4. #4
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  5. #5
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.
    This is just....terrible ! They let someone who writes like this be an English major ? It reads like it was written by a 6 year old ! A particulary slow one....
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.
    Jesus Christ. Whoever didn't force him to see a psychiatrist regularly after that should be in big trouble.


    What happened yesterday:

    When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho."

    Cho was in my playwriting class last fall, and nobody seemed to think much of him at first. He would sit by himself whenever possible, and didn't like talking to anyone. I don't think I've ever actually heard his voice before. He was just so quiet and kept to himself. Looking back, he fit the exact stereotype of what one would typically think of as a "school shooter" – a loner, obsessed with violence, and serious personal problems. Some of us in class tried to talk to him to be nice and get him out of his shell, but he refused talking to anyone. It was like he didn't want to be friends with anybody. One friend of mine tried to offer him some Halloween candy that she still had, but he slowly shook his head, refusing it. He just came to class every day and submitted his work on time, as I understand it.

    A major part of the playwriting class was peer reviews. We would write one-act plays and submit them to an online repository called Blackboard for everyone in the class to read and comment about in class the next day. Typically, the students give their opinions about the plays and suggest ways to make it better, the professor gives his insights, then asks the author to comment about the play in class.

    When we read Cho's plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of. Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun, I was that freaked out about him. When the students gave reviews of his play in class, we were very careful with our words in case he decided to snap. Even the professor didn't pressure him to give closing comments.

    After hearing about the mass shootings, I sent one of my friends a Facebook message asking him if he knew anything about Seung Cho and if he could have been involved. He replied: "dude that's EXACTLY what I was thinking! No, I haven't heard anything, but seriously, that was the first thing I thought when I heard he was Asian."

    While I "knew" Cho, I always wished there was something I could do for him, but I couldn't think of anything. As far as notifying authorities, there isn't (to my knowledge) any system set up that lets people say "Hey! This guy has some issues! Maybe you should look into this guy!" If there were, I definitely would have tried to get the kid some help. I think that could have had a good chance of averting yesterday's tragedy more than anything.

    While I was hesitant at first to release these plays (because I didn't know if there are laws against it), I had to put myself in the shoes of the average person researching this situation. I'd want to know everything I could about the killer to figure out what could drive a person to do something like this and hopefully prevent it in the future. Also, I hope this might help people start caring about others more no matter how weird they might seem, because if this was some kind of cry for attention, then he should have gotten it a long time ago.

    As far as the victims go, as I was heading to bed last night, I heard that my good friend Stack (Ryan Clark) was one of the first confirmed dead. I didn't want to believe that I'd never get to talk to him again, and all I could think about was how much I could tell him how much his friendship meant to me. During my junior year, Ryan, another friend and I used to get breakfast on Tuesdays and Thursdays at Shultz Dining Hall, one of the cafeterias on campus, and it was always the highlight of my day. He could talk forever it seemed and always made us laugh. He was a good friend, not just to me, but to a lot of people, and I'll miss him a lot.
    http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/...ng-huis-plays/

    Also contains play number 2
    Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 04-17-2007 at 21:18.

  7. #7
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    A lot of pictures from the campus:
    http://media.collegepublisher.com/me...-07/index.html

    Sasaki, that is troubling.

    CR
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    Στωικισμός Member Bijo's Avatar
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    Default Re : Virginia Tech shooting

    CR, were you saying on that page with the picture you are a MOUSE now?



    About that article and identification:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Law enforcement officials have provided this official photo of Cho Seung-hui, the man they identify as the killer at Virginia Tech. Cho was a 23-year-old student of Korean descent who lived on campus. Sources tell ABC News he was carrying a backpack with a receipt for the purchase of a 9 mm handgun.

    I suspect it wasn't just the *possible* trauma of sexual abuse and stuff like that, there's probably more to it. Hmmm... that picture. But-- WHAT?!?!?! He looks like a young modified Asianized version of my brother! That's it!

    But seriously...
    There are many things suspicious about the case and I even suspect those other students have something to do with it. Not saying it's so, just suspecting. They are human after all

    :|
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  9. #9
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Bijo
    CR, were you saying on that page with the picture you are a MOUSE now?
    Dude, that's clearly a rabbit. Rushing to judgment, are we?

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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  10. #10
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    CNN reports that he used a Walther .22 and a, um, Glock 19. I guess I better make sure mine hasn't gone missing.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    What made him do it?

    “After these episodes, everyone becomes a psychologist, looking back for warning signs,” says Jack Levin, a forensic psychologist at Northeastern University

    Over 90 percent of killers are male, and the same holds for mass murderers—“I can’t think of a single case where a woman has done this,” says Schlesinger—partly because men tend to have more access to guns, which are usually the weapons of choice. The killers are usually somewhere between the ages of 25 and 35. They generally do not have previous histories of breaking the law in any serious way, says Levin. And they are not, on the whole, psychopaths, although they are often identified in the media as such. “A psychopath is someone with little conscience, little interpersonal bonding, someone who’s smooth and manipulative," says Schlesinger. "That personality has nothing, zero, to do with mass murder."

    Indeed, the personality type most often associated with mass murder is in some ways the opposite of a psychopath. He is far from cool-headed; instead, he is aggrieved, hurt, and above all paranoid. Some mass murderers may be trying to exercise power over a world that they feel has left them powerless. "These people often feel some great injustice has been done to them. They're angry and they want to take it out on the world," says Schlesinger. "Then they develop the idea that committing murder will be the solution to whatever their problem is, and they fixate on it. Eventually they come to feel that there's no other solution."

    "You don't just get a D on your report card and then open fire on 30 people," says Levin. "It takes a prolonged series of frustrations. These people are chronically depressed and miserable."

    “Almost always [in school shootings], the perpetrator is a student who seeks revenge,” says Levin. As for Cho and whatever had upset him, Levin says, "It was murder by proxy. I think he was trying to kill the college."

    And Levin says Cho, who was of Korean descent, may have been influenced by a mass shooting in at Dawson College in Montreal last September. That shooter was also a male, Asian student in his 20s. "The inspiration, if there is one, usually comes from someone who shares important characteristics with the killer," says Levin. "I'd venture a guess that that's what happened here."

    Many of the warning signs—a near-daily loss of temper, vandalism, increased alcohol and drug use, overreacting to slight setbacks—are characteristic of depression in general. "These are warning signs that a person is in trouble, not that he's going to kill 30 people," says Levin. "There are hundreds of thousands of people who have led lives of frustration, who blame others for their problems, and who are socially isolated, but guess what? They never kill anyone."

    Peter Sheras, a clinical psychologist at the University of Virginia, says one key to recognizing serious warning signs is learning which ones seem likely to play out in real life. "People need to distinguish between transient threats—things that pass in a moment of anger that get cleared up—versus serious threats where there's a likelihood that it's going to be carried out," he says. "You can't completely know, but if the person is depressed or despondent or suicidal, we should take that more seriously."

    "By the time they've reached a point where they have a plan to kill somebody, their life is not of value to them anymore," Martin says. "Their goal is to hurt someone or become famous in some way, and they don't, at that point, want to stop themselves from accomplishing that."

    "They may think, 'I may never amount to much, but I'm going to die amounting to something. This is my final mark on the world, my final statement,'" says Martin. "It's a fantasy that they will have the ultimate last word, even if they don't live to see it."
    This was very interesting. To me it implies that we as a society should take more responsibility regarding those of us who are depressed. Forget guns or violent movies. They would use other weapons if they didn't have guns and the inspiration seems to come from other school shootings.

  12. #12
    Στωικισμός Member Bijo's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    What made him do it?



    This was very interesting. To me it implies that we as a society should take more responsibility regarding those of us who are depressed. Forget guns or violent movies. They would use other weapons if they didn't have guns and the inspiration seems to come from other school shootings.
    Society won't take care of that: they are too busy gaining more wealth, having more sex, consuming products, being individualistic, and generally satisfying their ego. What does society care? :|

    They don't do jack, and when something untasty like this case occurs, it'll be forgotten soon enough.
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 04-17-2007 at 21:57.
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  13. #13
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    On the early rush to judgment: this guy, who sort of filled the profile of the shooter (23, asian, VT student, gun-enthusiast) got 80,000+ hate messages to his blog. He's innocent.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    On the early rush to judgment: this guy, who sort of filled the profile of the shooter (23, asian, VT student, gun-enthusiast) got 80,000+ hate messages to his blog. He's innocent.
    heh heh, I saw that. He posted a message soon after the shootings showing he was alive, but then deleted it. Apparently he found the comments amusing.

  15. #15
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    Jesus Christ. Whoever didn't force him to see a psychiatrist regularly after that should be in big trouble.
    I think it's a bit of PC run amok.
    Lucinda Roy, a co-director of the creative writing program at Virginia Tech, taught Cho in a poetry class in fall of 2005 and later worked with him one-on-one after she became concerned about his behavior and themes in his writings.

    Roy spoke outside her home Tuesday afternoon, saying that there was nothing explicit in Cho's writings, but that threats were there under the surface.

    Roy told ABC News that Cho seemed "extraordinarily lonely—the loneliest person I have ever met in my life." She said he wore sunglasses indoors, with a cap pulled low over his eyes. He whispered, took 20 seconds to answer questions, and took cellphone pictures of her in class. Roy said she was concerned for her safety when she met with him.

    She said she notified authorities about Cho, but said she was told that there would be too many legal hurdles to intervene. She said she asked him to go to counseling, but he never did.
    Clearly, something was not quite right with this kid- yet there was nothing anyone could do because of "legal hurdles". In the end, all she could do was suggest that he get counseling- he had no obligation to do so and obviously didn't.
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  16. #16
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.
    THIS is the "macabre, grotesque, nightmarish scary script that scared people? Anyone who thinks this is anything more than bad writing is a bit frail. It actually kind of looks like a joke. Honestly, I would not have paid much attention to this guy. He so generic.
    If they were so worried about some of his more extreme behavioral abnormalities they should have pointed him to a good shrink.
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    Last edited by CrossLOPER; 04-18-2007 at 00:22.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
    THIS is the "macabre, grotesque, nightmarish scary script that scared people?
    Reading with the benefit of hindsight, I certainly find it all those things. It's clearly the work of a disturbed mind - the 13 year old boy's accusations ring alarm bells about the author's state of mind and are grotesque; the "plot" lacks any kind of credibility or logic giving it a nightmarish quality; and the undertone of violence is macabre.

    Anyone who thinks this is anything more than bad writing is a bit frail. It actually kind of looks like a joke.
    Context matters. If this were submitted by a light-hearted student, then I might think he was trying it on. But with someone who never mixes, spends 20 seconds before answering, wears shades in class etc, I'd take it as evidence that he has serious issues (as apparently his English professor did take it).

    If they were so worried about some of his more extreme behavioral abnormalities they should have pointed him to a good shrink.
    They did, AFAIK. Doesn't seem he was the kind of chap who would have responded to such "pointing" though.



    On a different note, I just read some of the victim's profiles on MSN news - was the saddest thing I've read for quite a while. You look at the photos of the young students, full of life and enthusiasm. It does not get any easier reading about the elderly Holocaust survivor lying down to block the class room door.

  18. #18
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by econ21
    Reading with the benefit of hindsight, I certainly find it all those things. It's clearly the work of a disturbed mind - the 13 year old boy's accusations ring alarm bells about the author's state of mind and are.....
    I'm sorry, but I feel that at this time it is a little hard to tell what is relevant and what isn't relevant to the shooter's condition or if he had one.

    Also, the "hindsight is 20/20" business is being a bit overused.
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  19. #19
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
    Also, the "hindsight is 20/20" business is being a bit overused.
    I think 'overused' would only apply to the hindsight comment if people didn't continue saying what people should have done but didn't. Until then it's the most accurate and concise response to such assertions.

    Ajax

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  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
    I'm sorry, but I feel that at this time it is a little hard to tell what is relevant and what isn't relevant to the shooter's condition or if he had one.

    Also, the "hindsight is 20/20" business is being a bit overused.
    Hindsight is all we have - we can't read that play without knowing what that guy later did, any more than we can read Mein Kampf without knowing what it's author later did. I can't be sure how I would have reacted to that play script if I had read it before yesterday, but it does strike me as grossly inappropriate for a university class and the product of a disturbed mind. I can quite understand his classmates and professor thinking the same at the time. But maybe you are right and we are all just more "frail" than you.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Yesterday, we knew spit.

    Today, we know spit + 3%.

    Some people acted heroically, others simply tried to survive, one had neither goal in mind.
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  22. #22
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Virginia Tech shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
    Pannonian,

    No one has responded to your position by arguing that an investigation shouldn't be made. Clearly the more information we can bring in the better off we'll be. The problem is the harsh vitriol you are exhibiting against individuals who have done nothing wrong that we know of. For one thing, I don't believe vengeance is of any value period. For another, why should vengeance against a criminal be taken against his parents? They did not shoot anyone. There is no evidence to suggest they influenced their son's shooting. Why should they be punished for his crimes?
    In Britain, there was the case of a black kid who was murdered by a gang of white youths. Police incompetence with the hint of corruption led to the destruction or loss of all useable evidence, and the case collapsed. The press took up the case, allowing the family of the deceased to bring a private prosecution against the accused, and forcing the police to clean up their incompetence and/or racism.

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