Virginia Tech shooting

[drone]

This guy's family should be looking at themselves and asking how he came to be like this, and the deceased's families deserve to know the answers. The press in its various guises can serve as both carrot and stick with which to find answers to the question "Why?". If the family isn't inclined to go public with the results, IMHO an incident of this kind and severity gives the press the right to look for the answers themselves. And if this is an intrusion into their family's privacy - tough cheese.

I'd bet the press is all over the family already. I'm pretty sure I know where they live, and I'm also sure I'm going to have to fight through the tent city sprouting around the place on the way home.

On the gun issue, I saw that he passed a background check done in 2003 for his green card renewal. So he would not have had any problems purchasing a firearm legally.

[Geoffrey S]

Pannonian, get off it. Until there are any facts to back your reasoning about the shooter's family, please keep those opinions to yourself. And no, it is not always possible to notice when someone might lose it; the sister of a friend of mine committed suicide, and absolutely no-one saw it coming, and there sure as heck was nothing wrong with the family.

[Ser Clegane]

Pannonian, please remember that their parents of the shooter also lost their child - probably in a more complete way than other people, as they not only lost the life of their son but also the memory of their son as what is left to them is the fact that their child murdered 30+ people, the more or less open accusation that they as parents are at least to some degree also guilty of what happened and probably also their own feeling that they are at least partly responsible because they should have done something different to prevent this tragedy from happening.

Unless you have a very good reason to believe that these parents are somehow also responsible for what happened, they have IMHO the sme right of privacy as any other parents who lost their children in this shooting. Your "tough cheese" comment seems quite inappropriate here
(NB: this is not a comment in my function as Backroom moderator, but my opinion as an Backroom-patron)

[JimBob]

Pannonian seriously. 34 families lost loved ones. This guy wasn't some robot, he was a person with a history and a family. I'm pretty sure that family loved him. Now they are not only grieving because they lost a family member but because he went out in a horrific way. Then to have people calling for a witch trial?

Maybe the guy was just broken in the head through no fault of the parents except genetics. But if are going to hold them accountable for their genes I assume you've yelled at ever cancer patient's parents as well.

[Pannonian]

Pannonian, get off it. Until there are any facts to back your reasoning about the shooter's family, please keep those opinions to yourself. And no, it is not always possible to notice when someone might lose it; the sister of a friend of mine committed suicide, and absolutely no-one saw it coming, and there sure as heck was nothing wrong with the family.

Are you suggesting that the question shouldn't be asked? I used the example of Japanese society to illustrate my point - if the question "Why?" hadn't been asked of all the various incidents, would people be as aware of the poisonous results of a society dedicated entirely to work? As I said, this is one case where vengeance and constructive investigation go hand in hand. Vengeance means the killer's family gives up their right to privacy until this is satisfactorily cleared up. The answers are then used as part of a wider investigation to minimise the chances of something like this happening again. Is there owt wrong with this?

Re: Ser Clegane. Fair enough.

Re: Jimbob. I subscribe to the social conditioning school rather than genetics. If someone goes berserk, IMHO their life history, including upbringing, usually offers a better explanation than their genes.

[Ser Clegane]

Vengeance means the killer's family gives up their right to privacy until this is satisfactorily cleared up.

Investigations can certainly be done without dragging the parents into the spotlight?
Also, how come that the killer's family becomes a default subject of "vengeance"? I would have thought that we moved a bit beyond "Sippenhaft"

[doc_bean]

It was my impression that families (Asian ones anyway)

WTF ? It's their responsibility because they're Asian ? Different rules apply to Asian families ?

BS, this kid was obviously messed up, who knows why at this point ?

[Scurvy]

I said, this is one case where vengeance and constructive investigation go hand in hand.

vengence on who? the killer killed the people, not his family.

furthermore the press are hardly interested in finding out the truth.. they just want a good story, im sure we'l be finding out that his mother was feeding him the wrong sort of food soon...

Vengeance means the killer's family gives up their right to privacy until this is satisfactorily cleared up

has it occured to you that they might have done nothing wrong?

--> a bit of sympathy and respect is needed for a family who will be grieving like all the others....

the question should be asked, but by the right people at the right time.

[Sir Moody]

Are you familiar with trap shotguns, hunting shotguns, hunting rifles, target pistols, .22 rifles, and a plethora of others clearly not designed to kill people?

wow all of those guns you just listed can kill people even if they wernt designed too and most were still designed to kill (animals if not people but remmeber we are animals and what kills a deer will kill us just as easily)

the only 2 you have there which i cant argue with are the Trap shotgun (a slight varient on the nomal shotgun designed to blow little plates out of the air ) - and the Target pistol (designed for professional shooting aka sport) - these are exceptions to the norm that arose from the tried and tested and most definatly designed to kill guns we see far more oftenly - congratualtions

[ajaxfetish]

Pannonian,

No one has responded to your position by arguing that an investigation shouldn't be made. Clearly the more information we can bring in the better off we'll be. The problem is the harsh vitriol you are exhibiting against individuals who have done nothing wrong that we know of. For one thing, I don't believe vengeance is of any value period. For another, why should vengeance against a criminal be taken against his parents? They did not shoot anyone. There is no evidence to suggest they influenced their son's shooting. Why should they be punished for his crimes?

I appreciate your intense reaction to the killing of a holocaust survivor and recognize that may be responsible for your seemingly irrational response. It seems highly doubtful that this had any bearing on the professor's killing. The killer didn't single him out, and may not have even been aware he was a holocaust survivor. This certainly has nothing to do with the parents. Be kind, and give the poor people the benefit of the doubt. A thorough investigation is important, but condemning people without any such investigation being made is not helpful.

Ajax

[Soulforged]

Phil McGraw is not blaming this uniquely on video games. It's a wider criticism of movies and of the glamorization of violence in society as a whole

It could be. However when I pay attention to the motives behind this killings, they're usually moved by desperation, and although games do tend to portray violence, even without reason (GTA series) they also don't portray any character, as far as I know, as a good man because he kills, many times not even the motives are good motives. However I always thought that games should be strictly restricted by ages.

I can see however, how this occurs more often in the USA at least (sorry I'm not aware of global tragedies). This has happened only one time in my country and never in that scale. I suppose that there's not a single cause for this. First it must be the gun culture existent on the country. Second it has to be a psicological issue of the public mass of adolescent teenagers. I also believe it has something to do with the concept of social justice, in the sense that some people believe that the bad things that are happening to them can be attributed to everyone arround them without discrimination, without criterium, only because they happen to be in their way, perhaps they believe that everyone else is guilty of inaction. Third some believe that dignity is the more important value that humans have and some of them are willing to do anything to defend it, when humiliated they might respond like this. However this is not something exclusive of the USA, I suppose it's not the only country with a gun culture, not the only one with violent games. The adequate cause for this has to be found in another place, another element but I cannot see what's that element. I think an american has to know better...

[KukriKhan]

Now, another reminder:

If you're a regular poster or reader here, you've seen what happens among the great minds here, when event details become slim: we start in on each other's words.

This usually starts happening about page 3 and post #75, or so.

I urge all to resist that natural urge to try to draw conclusions before enough details are available, AND the other natural reaction to frustration (at the lack of detail) to strike out at the handiest target - our fellow posters.

Sorry for the length of this announcement, and its distraction.

Please continue, civilly.

[Pannonian]

Investigations can certainly be done without dragging the parents into the spotlight?
Also, how come that the killer's family becomes a default subject of "vengeance"? I would have thought that we moved a bit beyond "Sippenhaft"

Letting the press ask the questions is civilised society's most constructive form of vengeance. It's unpleasant enough to act as such, and constructive enough to help work towards solving any wider social problems. The killer can't be jailed, the killer can't be rehabilitated, so the usual forms of state punishment no longer apply. In its absence, why not ask the question "Why?".

I've noted that people have ignored my conditional point, that the family had better make a good show of remorse, which I elaborated as asking themselves how he came to be like this, and letting the public know the answers. If they do this, there is no need for the press to press them further - the point of making them ask the difficult questions and helping society avoid incidents like this in the future has been served. The families of the 7/7 bombers did the same, helping the police investigate the histories of their sons, and the result is we now have a better knowledge of their roots and causes. And once the questions had been answered, they were allowed to retreat back into privacy. Is there anything wrong with this?

[Lemur]

Well, it hasn't taken long for various loonbats to grab onto this event and fit it into their agenda. I see the Westboro Baptist Church plans to picket the funerals. "Jerks" doesn't quite do them justice. Also, Jack Thompson has declared that violent video games are to blame. Note that he came to this conclusion before anyone knew the identity of the shooter.

Not to mention how pro- and anti-gun folks (including some of our own) have leaped in to tell us how this tragedy reinforces their positions.

I guess it's natural to look for meaning in something this nasty. Personally, I'm still adopting a wait and see mode.

[KukriKhan]

The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yesterday, we knew spit.

Today, we know spit + 3%.

Some people acted heroically, others simply tried to survive, one had neither goal in mind.

[Pannonian]

Pannonian,

No one has responded to your position by arguing that an investigation shouldn't be made. Clearly the more information we can bring in the better off we'll be. The problem is the harsh vitriol you are exhibiting against individuals who have done nothing wrong that we know of. For one thing, I don't believe vengeance is of any value period. For another, why should vengeance against a criminal be taken against his parents? They did not shoot anyone. There is no evidence to suggest they influenced their son's shooting. Why should they be punished for his crimes?

In Britain, there was the case of a black kid who was murdered by a gang of white youths. Police incompetence with the hint of corruption led to the destruction or loss of all useable evidence, and the case collapsed. The press took up the case, allowing the family of the deceased to bring a private prosecution against the accused, and forcing the police to clean up their incompetence and/or racism.

Stephen Lawrence

[doc_bean]

The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.

This is just....terrible ! They let someone who writes like this be an English major ? It reads like it was written by a 6 year old ! A particulary slow one....

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.

Jesus Christ. Whoever didn't force him to see a psychiatrist regularly after that should be in big trouble.

What happened yesterday:

When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho."

Cho was in my playwriting class last fall, and nobody seemed to think much of him at first. He would sit by himself whenever possible, and didn't like talking to anyone. I don't think I've ever actually heard his voice before. He was just so quiet and kept to himself. Looking back, he fit the exact stereotype of what one would typically think of as a "school shooter" – a loner, obsessed with violence, and serious personal problems. Some of us in class tried to talk to him to be nice and get him out of his shell, but he refused talking to anyone. It was like he didn't want to be friends with anybody. One friend of mine tried to offer him some Halloween candy that she still had, but he slowly shook his head, refusing it. He just came to class every day and submitted his work on time, as I understand it.

A major part of the playwriting class was peer reviews. We would write one-act plays and submit them to an online repository called Blackboard for everyone in the class to read and comment about in class the next day. Typically, the students give their opinions about the plays and suggest ways to make it better, the professor gives his insights, then asks the author to comment about the play in class.

When we read Cho's plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of. Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun, I was that freaked out about him. When the students gave reviews of his play in class, we were very careful with our words in case he decided to snap. Even the professor didn't pressure him to give closing comments.

After hearing about the mass shootings, I sent one of my friends a Facebook message asking him if he knew anything about Seung Cho and if he could have been involved. He replied: "dude that's EXACTLY what I was thinking! No, I haven't heard anything, but seriously, that was the first thing I thought when I heard he was Asian."

While I "knew" Cho, I always wished there was something I could do for him, but I couldn't think of anything. As far as notifying authorities, there isn't (to my knowledge) any system set up that lets people say "Hey! This guy has some issues! Maybe you should look into this guy!" If there were, I definitely would have tried to get the kid some help. I think that could have had a good chance of averting yesterday's tragedy more than anything.

While I was hesitant at first to release these plays (because I didn't know if there are laws against it), I had to put myself in the shoes of the average person researching this situation. I'd want to know everything I could about the killer to figure out what could drive a person to do something like this and hopefully prevent it in the future. Also, I hope this might help people start caring about others more no matter how weird they might seem, because if this was some kind of cry for attention, then he should have gotten it a long time ago.

As far as the victims go, as I was heading to bed last night, I heard that my good friend Stack (Ryan Clark) was one of the first confirmed dead. I didn't want to believe that I'd never get to talk to him again, and all I could think about was how much I could tell him how much his friendship meant to me. During my junior year, Ryan, another friend and I used to get breakfast on Tuesdays and Thursdays at Shultz Dining Hall, one of the cafeterias on campus, and it was always the highlight of my day. He could talk forever it seemed and always made us laugh. He was a good friend, not just to me, but to a lot of people, and I'll miss him a lot.

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/...ng-huis-plays/

Also contains play number 2

[Geoffrey S]

Are you suggesting that the question shouldn't be asked? I used the example of Japanese society to illustrate my point - if the question "Why?" hadn't been asked of all the various incidents, would people be as aware of the poisonous results of a society dedicated entirely to work? As I said, this is one case where vengeance and constructive investigation go hand in hand. Vengeance means the killer's family gives up their right to privacy until this is satisfactorily cleared up. The answers are then used as part of a wider investigation to minimise the chances of something like this happening again. Is there owt wrong with this?

No, I never suggested such a thing. "Why?" is a perfectly valid question to ask, considering that right now we now next to nothing about the origins of the tragedy. The post I responded was filled with preconceptions about the shooter's family, who as Ser Clegane rightly pointed also lost their relative in both body and mind, in a situation where you clearly cannot know the facts yet. What I would suggest is to allow some more time before jumping to conclusions.

Edit: Sasaki, good post. The more I hear about this, the more chilling it becomes. A horrible, horrible situation.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A lot of pictures from the campus:
http://media.collegepublisher.com/me...-07/index.html

Sasaki, that is troubling.

CR

[Bijo]

CR, were you saying on that page with the picture you are a MOUSE now?



About that article and identification:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Law enforcement officials have provided this official photo of Cho Seung-hui, the man they identify as the killer at Virginia Tech. Cho was a 23-year-old student of Korean descent who lived on campus. Sources tell ABC News he was carrying a backpack with a receipt for the purchase of a 9 mm handgun.

I suspect it wasn't just the *possible* trauma of sexual abuse and stuff like that, there's probably more to it. Hmmm... that picture. But-- WHAT?!?!?! He looks like a young modified Asianized version of my brother! That's it!

But seriously...
There are many things suspicious about the case and I even suspect those other students have something to do with it. Not saying it's so, just suspecting. They are human after all

:|

[drone]

CNN reports that he used a Walther .22 and a, um, Glock 19. I guess I better make sure mine hasn't gone missing.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What made him do it?

“After these episodes, everyone becomes a psychologist, looking back for warning signs,” says Jack Levin, a forensic psychologist at Northeastern University

Over 90 percent of killers are male, and the same holds for mass murderers—“I can’t think of a single case where a woman has done this,” says Schlesinger—partly because men tend to have more access to guns, which are usually the weapons of choice. The killers are usually somewhere between the ages of 25 and 35. They generally do not have previous histories of breaking the law in any serious way, says Levin. And they are not, on the whole, psychopaths, although they are often identified in the media as such. “A psychopath is someone with little conscience, little interpersonal bonding, someone who’s smooth and manipulative," says Schlesinger. "That personality has nothing, zero, to do with mass murder."

Indeed, the personality type most often associated with mass murder is in some ways the opposite of a psychopath. He is far from cool-headed; instead, he is aggrieved, hurt, and above all paranoid. Some mass murderers may be trying to exercise power over a world that they feel has left them powerless. "These people often feel some great injustice has been done to them. They're angry and they want to take it out on the world," says Schlesinger. "Then they develop the idea that committing murder will be the solution to whatever their problem is, and they fixate on it. Eventually they come to feel that there's no other solution."

"You don't just get a D on your report card and then open fire on 30 people," says Levin. "It takes a prolonged series of frustrations. These people are chronically depressed and miserable."

“Almost always [in school shootings], the perpetrator is a student who seeks revenge,” says Levin. As for Cho and whatever had upset him, Levin says, "It was murder by proxy. I think he was trying to kill the college."

And Levin says Cho, who was of Korean descent, may have been influenced by a mass shooting in at Dawson College in Montreal last September. That shooter was also a male, Asian student in his 20s. "The inspiration, if there is one, usually comes from someone who shares important characteristics with the killer," says Levin. "I'd venture a guess that that's what happened here."

Many of the warning signs—a near-daily loss of temper, vandalism, increased alcohol and drug use, overreacting to slight setbacks—are characteristic of depression in general. "These are warning signs that a person is in trouble, not that he's going to kill 30 people," says Levin. "There are hundreds of thousands of people who have led lives of frustration, who blame others for their problems, and who are socially isolated, but guess what? They never kill anyone."

Peter Sheras, a clinical psychologist at the University of Virginia, says one key to recognizing serious warning signs is learning which ones seem likely to play out in real life. "People need to distinguish between transient threats—things that pass in a moment of anger that get cleared up—versus serious threats where there's a likelihood that it's going to be carried out," he says. "You can't completely know, but if the person is depressed or despondent or suicidal, we should take that more seriously."

"By the time they've reached a point where they have a plan to kill somebody, their life is not of value to them anymore," Martin says. "Their goal is to hurt someone or become famous in some way, and they don't, at that point, want to stop themselves from accomplishing that."

"They may think, 'I may never amount to much, but I'm going to die amounting to something. This is my final mark on the world, my final statement,'" says Martin. "It's a fantasy that they will have the ultimate last word, even if they don't live to see it."

This was very interesting. To me it implies that we as a society should take more responsibility regarding those of us who are depressed. Forget guns or violent movies. They would use other weapons if they didn't have guns and the inspiration seems to come from other school shootings.

[KukriKhan]

On the early rush to judgment: this guy, who sort of filled the profile of the shooter (23, asian, VT student, gun-enthusiast) got 80,000+ hate messages to his blog. He's innocent.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

On the early rush to judgment: this guy, who sort of filled the profile of the shooter (23, asian, VT student, gun-enthusiast) got 80,000+ hate messages to his blog. He's innocent.

heh heh, I saw that. He posted a message soon after the shootings showing he was alive, but then deleted it. Apparently he found the comments amusing.

[Bijo]

What made him do it?



This was very interesting. To me it implies that we as a society should take more responsibility regarding those of us who are depressed. Forget guns or violent movies. They would use other weapons if they didn't have guns and the inspiration seems to come from other school shootings.

Society won't take care of that: they are too busy gaining more wealth, having more sex, consuming products, being individualistic, and generally satisfying their ego. What does society care? :|

They don't do jack, and when something untasty like this case occurs, it'll be forgotten soon enough.

[edyzmedieval]

Poor fella, getting 80000+ hate mail when you aren't even the killer.

Anyhow, I feel sad too. A Romanian teacher is now a hero and dead too, because he tried to stop the killer from killing his students by blocking the door. Unfortunately, he got shot.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Society won't take care of that: they are too busy gaining more wealth, having more sex, consuming products, being individualistic, and generally satisfying their ego. What does society care? :|

They don't do jack, and when something untasty like this case occurs, it'll be forgotten soon enough.

Living up to the first part of your custom title I see

I hope the administration doesn't get in any trouble over this.

[Crazed Rabbit]

CR, were you saying on that page with the picture you are a MOUSE now?

Dude, that's clearly a rabbit. Rushing to judgment, are we?

CR