Armor/weapon upgrades

[King of Bavaria]

Hi everyone.

Two questions about upgrades:

1.: If an archer unit gets weapon upgrades, will they upgrade their melee weapons, their arrows or both?

2.: An upgraded unit, that has taken losses, is retrained in a province without armorer/metalsmith. Will the new men have upgrades?

[caravel]

Hi everyone.

Two questions about upgrades:

1.: If an archer unit gets weapon upgrades, will they upgrade their melee weapons, their arrows or both?

It upgrades mêlée weapons only, not bows, crossbows, arbalests or javelins.

2.: An upgraded unit, that has taken losses, is retrained in a province without armorer/metalsmith. Will the new men have upgrades?

I'm pretty sure that the retrained men in the unit won't gain the upgrades, though I'm not 100% sure of this. I believe that is how it works for valour or morale but it may work differently for armour/weapon upgrades.

[CountMRVHS]

I actually think it's not possible to retrain an under-strength, upgraded unit in a province without weapon/armor upgrades. I tried it recently in a VI campaign; I had a half-strength unit of "black" upgrade armored spearmen, and tried to retrain them in a province without iron -- couldn't even do it.

Of course upgrades work a bit differently in VI as well -- you need iron in a province to make an armory as well as a metalsmith.

[Agent Miles]

As Cambyses II posted, I think that it is reasonable to assume that the new recruits won’t have the upgrades. If you merged two partial units, one with upgrades and one without, the now whole unit may show the upgrade icons, but there is no reason to believe that those without somehow magically got them.

[drone]

As Cambyses II posted, I think that it is reasonable to assume that the new recruits won’t have the upgrades. If you merged two partial units, one with upgrades and one without, the now whole unit may show the upgrade icons, but there is no reason to believe that those without somehow magically got them.

With merging, the combined unit will have the upgrades of the unit you drop into, not the unit you pick up first. And the auto-tidy function will always give you lower tech than what you can do manually.

Don't know if you can retrain a upgraded unit in an unupgraded province, don't think I've tried it since I always assumed you would just get an unupgraded unit. If you want to game the system, just build a fresh, unupgraded unit, and merge it into the old, upgraded unit. It will refresh the upgraded unit and leave you with reinforcements for another depleted unit.

[Agent Miles]

I don’t believe in this something for nothing principle. Why should non-upgraded recruits get the weapons and armor of another partial unit by simply merging the two? It makes no sense. The program still knows which is which.

[Ironside]

With merging, the combined unit will have the upgrades of the unit you drop into, not the unit you pick up first. And the auto-tidy function will always give you lower tech than what you can do manually.

Are you certain? Because I know that the auto-tidy function is the reason why low-tech generals ends up with as a 1-man uints, and as the AI never retrains...

[drone]

Are you certain? Because I know that the auto-tidy function is the reason why low-tech generals ends up with as a 1-man uints, and as the AI never retrains...

When I have auto-tidy on, it always seems to "screw" me when there are units with different tech levels. It will "pick up" a high tech unit and "drop it" into a low tech unit. Maybe it's just the order they are kept in the stacks.

I don’t believe in this something for nothing principle. Why should non-upgraded recruits get the weapons and armor of another partial unit by simply merging the two? It makes no sense. The program still knows which is which.

This was discussed in a thread a while back. The consensus was that there are unit levels for armor, weapon, and morale upgrades, while valour is kept per man. Someone justified it by saying that the unit leader supplies the troops with armor and weapons.

Not saying it's right or wrong, it just seems to be the way it works. With this knowledge, you can choose to exploit it or not.

[Peasant Phill]

I believe that, like with merging, the new recruits will get the weapon and armor upgrades of their captain. Morale and valour are something different as they are tracked individually.

I don't have proof of this but I'm sure someone will test it soon.

[The Unknown Guy]

.

Why should non-upgraded recruits get the weapons and armor of another partial unit by simply merging the two? It makes no sense.

it does, if they plunder it from the dead. Armor is expensive, after all, and feudal men-at-arms are already described as wearing armor which is old-fashioned or plundered from the dead. :p

[macsen rufus]

I was just about to repeat my viewpoint about the unit leader providing the kit, as was common in feudal armies, but Drone's already beaten me to it!

You can retrain an upgraded unit in an un-upgraded province, so long as the basic troop type is available there. That's why you can add armour in one province, weapons in a second and valour in a third. Once an upgrade is applied it sticks. The one to watch though is valour, as this is tracked man-for-man, retraining a depleted unit in a basic-level building will give you raw recruits (v0). If you retrain in a master-level facility, your new guys will start with v1.

[Vladimir]

It has been said that the weapon is by group and armor is by man. Most things are by man except weapon.

[Maloncanth]

Speaking of master facilities, how is the facility used determined for units that require more than one type, say something that needs both swordsmith and horsebreeder? Would both need to be master level to get v1?


EDIT: I just ran a simple test. I threw some bronze armor steppe heavies into some black armour steppe heavies and threw them into a battle then checked the logfiles. They all reported having armour 1 so unless the logfile is misleading me, this seems to suggest that you take armour from your leader.

Valor however, is tracked man to man.

[macsen rufus]

Speaking of master facilities, how is the facility used determined for units that require more than one type, say something that needs both swordsmith and horsebreeder? Would both need to be master level to get v1?

When two buidlings are required, the valour bonus comes from the one listed first in the unit_prod building requirement column.

eg if a unit needs bowyer + spearmaker then:

"{BOWYER, SPEARMAKER}" gives valour bonus on the bowyer line
"{SPEARMAKER, BOWYER}" gives valour bonus on the spearmaker line

[caravel]

Ghulam Cavalry: "{SPEARMAKER3, HORSE_BREEDER3}"
Mounted Sergeants: "{SPEARMAKER2, HORSE_BREEDER2}"

Yet they gets their bonuses from the Horse Breeder line. I am wondering if the Horse breeder is the exception to this rule? I remember testing this quite a while back rearranging the order of building types and made some interesting discoveries, I can't remember it now though or where the thread/post was.

There are very few units that actually make use of a pair of either a swordsmith, bowyer or spearmaker anyway. At the moment only the Futuwwa, "{BOWYER3, SWORDSMITH}", spring to mind.

Also if units actually require a master level building to build, e.g, {SPEARMAKER4}, they seem to lose the valour bonus from it.

[macsen rufus]

Yes, Cambyses, I think horsebreeder may be an exception, too - as it produces a different unit type (ie cavalry). I was going by my experience from a mod where I trained camel archers from a musterfield and a bowyer: "{MUSTER_FIELD, BOWYER}" gave no valour bonus (as the musterfield has no upgrades), but "{BOWYER, MUSTER_FIELD}" gave the valour bonuses on the bowyer line as expected. Why I did that, was because I thought it was silly getting camels from a horsebreeder (I don't hold with the theory that "a camel is a horse designed by a committee", rather they are beautiful creatures in their own right )

And you're also right in that any unit that requires master level facilities will get no valour upgrades, as the valour upgrade will only apply if the unit is trainable from a lower level building.

[King of Bavaria]

Thanks everyone for your answers!