Gun control and school shootings

[Goofball]

Would stricter gun control stop some school shootings? Wayne Lo seems to think so:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18442224/site/newsweek/

The relevant bits:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Do you believe that stricter gun control would help prevent such tragedies?
The people who do these things are people who don’t want contact. They wouldn’t be capable of going out there and stabbing people to death. But there’s such a disconnect when you’re using a gun. You don’t even feel like you’re killing anybody. The fact that I was able to buy a rifle in 15 minutes, that’s absurd. I was 18. I couldn’t have rented a car to drive home from school, yet I could purchase a rifle.
You were from Montana, and a member of the NRA. Had guns and hunting been a part of your life?
That night was the first time I fired a gun. Why should a person who has never touched a gun be able to buy one and the first time he fires it, be able to kill people? You wouldn’t be able to drive a car without a license.
What sort of gun control do you propose, then?
Ideally, guns should be eliminated, but I know that won’t happen. There should be stricter checks. Obviously a waiting period would be great. Personally, I only had five days left of school before winter break: school got out on Friday, and I did that on a Monday. If I had a two-week waiting period for the gun, I wouldn’t have done it.

Interesting.

[rory_20_uk]

Although some have mentioned that increasing the cost of guns and removing low quality "throwaway" guns, making guns linked to a ring or fingerprint or instigating decent background checks to assess supplicants might be a good idea, these are all deeply flawed, and will only help to create a larger bureaucracy.

The real answer is far simpler: give guns to everyone. If every student had a pistol I am sure you'd agree that the number of shootings at schools would not be at the level it is now...

[Goofball]

Although some have mentioned that increasing the cost of guns and removing low quality "throwaway" guns, making guns linked to a ring or fingerprint or instigating decent background checks to assess supplicants might be a good idea, these are all deeply flawed, and will only help to create a larger bureaucracy.

The real answer is far simpler: give guns to everyone. If every student had a pistol I am sure you'd agree that the number of shootings at schools would not be at the level it is now...

I heartily agree. If every student had a pistol I am absolutely certain that the number of shootings at schools would not be at the level it is now.

[Don Corleone]

If we really want to end school shootings, why not schackle the students and herd them to and from class with cattle prods? That, or we can prescribe throrazine for everyone under the age of 21.

So, if I become a serial rapist, do I get to be interviewed in fifteen years as the resident expert on women's rights? Come on Goofy, this isn't one of your better efforts. We should ban guns because an amoral sociopath tells us we should? You ever think that he has a vested interest in seeing to it that only people as willing to break the law as he is are armed?

As for the text you quoted, yes, a gun is more impersonal of a way than a knife. And a planted timebomb is even more impersonal yet. Or is sweet, helpful Wayne Lo beyond using bombs?

[Goofball]

If we really want to end school shootings, why not schackle the students and herd them to and from class with cattle prods? That, or we can prescribe throrazine for everyone under the age of 21.

So, if I become a serial rapist, do I get to be interviewed in fifteen years as the resident expert on women's rights? Come on Goofy, this isn't one of your better efforts. We should ban guns because an amoral sociopath tells us we should? You ever think that he has a vested interest in seeing to it that only people as willing to break the law as he is are armed?

As for the text you quoted, yes, a gun is more impersonal of a way than a knife. And a planted timebomb is even more impersonal yet. Or is sweet, helpful Wayne Lo beyond using bombs?

Your emotion has apparently gotten the better of your analogy-smithing ability. A serial rapist would be a poor expert on women's rights. But he would be an excellent source of information on the methodology and motivation behind serial raping.

But you miss my point. I was not trying to say that gun control is the solution to all school shootings. That's why I quite deliberately italicized the word "some" in my initial post.

But what comes across quite clearly from this interview is that a relatively uninvasive form of gun control, the "waiting period," would have prevented this killer from taking the action he did.

As Denis Leary so wisely said:

"If you're the kind of person that can't wait two weeks to buy a handgun, then you're exactly the type of person who needs to wait two weeks to buy a handgun..."

I also find it strange that at 18 you can buy a gun, but not rent a car. I believe it's the same in Canada.

Seems slightly whacked to me.

The gun control issue in the U.S. always perplexes me, because the two sides that make the most noise are the extremes.

On one side, you have the guys who don't want any controls; no regulations, no registration, no licenses, no nothing.

On the other side, you have the airy-fairys who want absolutely no guns, nowhere, nohow.

I suspect, just like abortion, the vast majority of the population falls somewhere in between each of the two camps, but nobody in politics listens to the middle.

[Don Corleone]

If you're talking about background checks and waiting periods, I'm on board. But neither you nor your buddy Wayne said that. You just said gun-control. When it's not specified, when I hear gun control, I take that to mean seizing all firearms from everyone that bothers to obey the law.

As for my analogy, I think it is fitting. If we're going to ask a guy who shot up a school, the extreme act of making a school unsafe, how to keep kids in school safe, shouldn't we ask guys who violate women's rights in the extreme how to ensure their rights?

[BigTex]

I heartily agree. If every student had a pistol I am absolutely certain that the number of shootings at schools would not be at the level it is now.

Ironically when guns were common place in schools, shootings at school didn't happen. You may be on to something, bring back marksman teams and fire arm classes to schools.

Simple fact of the matter is killings with guns or other weapons on schools is not linked to the availibility of weapons. They'd still happen if all the knives if all the kitchen utensils if all the guns were banned. They'd happen with pens and pencils.

This is a cultural and psychological issue, not an issue of gun control.

VT happened with a target pistol and a 9mm, he shot 60 people and killed 30 with some of the weakest guns available. No ammount of gun control would have prevented this.

[HoreTore]

VT happened with a target pistol and a 9mm, he shot 60 people and killed 30 with some of the weakest guns available. No ammount of gun control would have prevented this.

Whatever your stance on this issue is, claiming that "no amount of gun control" could have prevented it, is just wrong. If there was absolute gun control, as in no guns anywhere, there is NO WAY he could have killed 30 people on a rampage with a knife/axe/etc. You can do that only with a gun. If the gun didn't exist, he wouldn't have done it. He might have killed one, two, three with an axe, but not 30.

Yes, a bomb could have killed the same number of people. BUT, that bomb would have to be placed and built very carefully in order to do that. Just look at the suicide bombers in Iraq and Israel, even on buses they straggle to kill over 10. Not to mention the fact that building a bomb from scratch with materials you can buy requires a lot more knowledge than what you need to buy a gun.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Everyone should be trained to use a gun and everyone should be taught what guns do. Make them a part of normal life and they will cease to facinate.

If children learn marxmanship from 12 upwards it will eventually be no more than a part of PE.

You can kill a lot of people with a cricket bat.

[BigTex]

Whatever your stance on this issue is, claiming that "no amount of gun control" could have prevented it, is just wrong. If there was absolute gun control, as in no guns anywhere, there is NO WAY he could have killed 30 people on a rampage with a knife/axe/etc. You can do that only with a gun. If the gun didn't exist, he wouldn't have done it. He might have killed one, two, three with an axe, but not 30.

Yes, a bomb could have killed the same number of people. BUT, that bomb would have to be placed and built very carefully in order to do that. Just look at the suicide bombers in Iraq and Israel, even on buses they straggle to kill over 10. Not to mention the fact that building a bomb from scratch with materials you can buy requires a lot more knowledge than what you need to buy a gun.

There's no such thing as absolute gun control. Figment of your imagination and impossible to create. There will always be guns, no matter if you ban them or not. No amount of gun control can prevent a highly intelligent murderer from killing, with guns.

Lets remember 9/11 was done with box cutters and kitchen knives. That killed 3,000. Banning guns or severe gun control wont prevent mass killings. The tool doesnt kill, the person kills. Guns are not evil people are evil, train people on how to use them and watch out for the poor loners and this could have been prevented. Thats the only way this could have been prevented.

A bomb would have easily killed far more, the police were confused and backpack filled with fertilizer is easy to hide. The man wasnt an idiot and could have done it with a bomb if he so choose.

I have no reason to believe he is a psychopath.

Never said he was a psycopath, but he was a loner.

Or in 1927, when a nutter used explosives to kill 45 and wound 58?

Now that has nothing to do with guns killing people. Infact it has to do more with my point. People will kill with whatever they can get, and guns arent the only thing that cause mass killings. A backpack of fertilizer is easier to hide, easier to construct, far easier to get, and will kill many more then any mass shooting.

[Lemur]

Ironically when guns were common place in schools, shootings at school didn't happen. You may be on to something, bring back marksman teams and fire arm classes to schools.

You mean like in 1966 when Charles Whitman gunned down 16 and wounded thirty-something students? Or in 1927, when a nutter used explosives to kill 45 and wound 58? Or in 1891, when a crazy man fired a shotgun into a group of students?

Let's not discuss golden yesteryears. They rarely live up to expectations.

List of documented school massacres in the U.S.

[Xiahou]

You mean like in 1966 when Charles Whitman gunned down 16 and wounded thirty-something students? Or in 1927, when a nutter used explosives to kill 45 and wound 58? Or in 1891, when a crazy man fired a shotgun into a group of students?

Let's not discuss golden yesteryears. They rarely live up to expectations.

List of documented school massacres in the U.S.

Let's look at the frequency shall we?

Let's be honest, even today, school shootings are statistically insignificant by almost any measure- be it total deaths, total homicides, total shootings, or even total deaths by firearm. In no category does it make up even a fraction of a percent. However, as to Big Tex's comment- look at how many school shootings we've had in the last twenty years and compare them to earlier times when there was far less gun control. According to your own link, you could go decades and decades between shootings- recently, they've been every few years or less. When you consider that in the first half of the 20th century school shooting teams were common with students bringing rifles to school with them regularly, perhaps more gun control isnt the answer.

Everyone should be trained to use a gun and everyone should be taught what guns do. Make them a part of normal life and they will cease to facinate.

If children learn marxmanship from 12 upwards it will eventually be no more than a part of PE.

Personally, I think that's a good idea. Make it part of the curriculum.

[Adrian II]

This is a cultural and psychological issue, not an issue of gun control.

Yup. Your approach yields no definitive answers either, but it is far superior to the availability thingy. I always take the same line in gun threads, but I rarely pursue it because I am sick and tired of the genre.

Lo says little of importance on the whole issue, although he may be right that in his case the easy availability of the rifle in combination with his sudden impulse was an enabling factor. I have no reason to believe he is a psychopath. Most murderers and even most terrorists and mass-murderers aren't. His comments about Asian culture seem to be on the mark, more so than those on the legislation issue. I recall reading somewhere that China gets its share of spree-killers and postal incidents, but the perpetrators use knives more often than guns. The result is usually less bloody. What would interest me, however, is the cultural and psychological background.

However, Lo is clearly not telling the whole story on his own escapade there, and the interviewer doesn't exactly push him.

[drone]

Obviously, the solution is to ban immigrants from purchasing firearms. It used to be that Americans had a can-do attitude about shooting up schools and the workplace, but it's apparent now that they can't be bothered, and the harder working immigrants seem to do a better job of it anyway. All you red-blooded American loners and psychos are now on notice: they are motivated, disgruntled, and they are coming for your jobs! Write your congressman today!